Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

madcabbage · 19-08-2014 10:24AM

Seems £17 million is the price being mentioned for the Rojo transfer. Apparantly the medical is set for today but time will tell how true this rumour is.

TheDoc · 19-08-2014 10:25AM

kippy wrote: »

You have absolutely no idea if this is the case however.

I'm pretty confident in saying the Glazers have not forced any transfer targets onto managers at the club.

I'm also confident in saying that they have had no reservations about singing off purchases of players. With large quantities going on players over the last 18 months. Not one story has even remotely emerged of a problem being with the Glazers.

Fergie is still working for the club, he's hardly going to spill the beans on what really goes on.

What beans does he have to spill? I think it's largely accepted his transfer budget wasn't massive when the board were managing finances after the purchase, but he was afforded money to spend which he did.

Moyes is subject to an NDA at present so he won't say much.

That's very speculative, while it might be the case, I've seen no such confirmation of this.

The "trash" it was spent on was generally speculative young player with promise.
In the past five years, Jones, Smalling, Shaw, Powell, Buttner, Zaha, De Gea, Hernandez, Bebe, Obertan, Diof and Pogba have all come to the club.
Granted Valencia, Young, Mata, Fellani have also come to the club (amongst others)

Trash was in reference to what the comments made by the detractors are saying, that we have spent money on muck. I don't personally feel this way.

Do you not think there has been a policy of buying very young (but paying plenty for them) in Gills last few years at the club?
Most of those players haven't worked out for one reason or another.
/quote]
Yes there has no question. And this is a pretty risky move, considering when you see what those "prospects" have developed into, with argueably De Gea the only one having meaningful impact on the first team. A lot of money has been spunked on "prospects" , but at the end of the day its not my money so I don't get overly worked up about it, but it sets a precedent in regards the sort of price tag we are going to get hassled for.

We have spent a lot on prospects, when argueably that money was better spent on buying either ready made players, or more certain players.

They both spend hundreds of millions more than United.
That, unfortunately is what it takes as you can afford to buy better players, first team players as well as make a lot of mistakes.

They both have the advantage of not relying on their revenue streams to purchase players. They have one individual, or a set of individuals, who just open a wallet and buy who they want. We operate based of our revenue streams. Granted things are much better now, and it's obvious considering the money we have spent.

I think there is probably some acceptance on the clubs part that to get back competing, there needs to be massive expenditure, and the Glazers do not appear to hvae blinked at that prospect.

When you look at some other clubs, like Villa, who need in comparison, pennies to stay remotely competitive in the premier league, and their chairman refusing to invest. Then you see Blackpool, and a host of other clubs where owners and chairman are reluctant to spend the money required.

United have had no such issue at present with the Glazers.

kippy · 19-08-2014 10:25AM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Glazerout trending on twitter matters f*ck all when 90% of the people tweeting it, will never set foot inside the ground in their lives.

im "thinking" it based on what i saw and heard inside the stadium on Saturday and before the game.

in saying that, theres nothing that 3 signings wont heal and this protest will not happen if Woodward does his job in the next two weeks.

Yeah, thats it exactly.
Its hard to see 3 transfers of the quality needed getting done in 2 weeks though.

irishfeen · 19-08-2014 10:28AM

Feeling rather positive again this morning - I think we have to remember what Jamie Carragher said last year "things are never as bad as they seem when things aren't going well" ... Between now and Christmas I do expect a few bad losses in the league (with or without signings this window).

I actually think the January window might be even more important as LVG will know every single player inside and out and he will at that stage be well on the way in building his vision for the future. I would take 5th in the league once we start building momentum as the season progresses - I think we will lose most points between now and Christmas but after January we could see a turnaround to a degree... City and Chelsea will beat us home and away IMO but after that it's up in the air.

TheDoc · 19-08-2014 10:30AM

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Yeah Fergie has to take the blame for the imbalance and ageing key players in the squad. For all the talk you used hear of Gill and himself wanting to handover a well built squad whenever the time would come, they really didn't.

Most people bought into the ****e Fegie and Gill were peddling before they left.

SAF outlining he was left a squad of champions that will be able to compete for seasons to come.
Gill outlining that one of the key criteria for appointing a successor was someone who would not dismantle the squad, and work with what was there, a squad of champions that would compete for years.

I wasn't the only one, but plenty of us were screaming at those comments, but unfortunately most people bought into it. And it was a key tool used to hit Moyes with, that he had degraded a squad of champions.

We won that league that season because City and Chelsea were so ****ing awful. Not because we were good.

You would have had to be INSANE to think that squad was good enough when Moyes took over. And as Woodward indicated himself in a board address, the club was caught TOTALLY on the hop when Moyes indicated the squad needed fresh faces ASAP, which led to the disastrous last summer.

All this is black and white, factual comments. It's not even up for debate in my eyes.

Ferguson and Gill went off into the sunset claiming they had left a title winning machine, when they had left anything but.

homerjay2005 · 19-08-2014 10:30AM

twam2008 wrote: »

I was actually really impressed by the Glazer's last season, was a big decision to call time on Moyes so soon, and they didn't shy away from it, and I think Van Gaal's appointment was massive.

so soon? Moyes "lost" the dressing room before he even had it and it was officially gone by October/November. he should have been sacked in December, end of January at the latest.

our season was still salvageable in January, but we waited and waited until 4th place was gone - The Glazers then sacked him as it saved them £25million after the Everton game despite the general consensus that he was a goner since late February.

had they replaced him in January, we could have had a chance at 4th, albeit an outside chance.

Lord TSC · 19-08-2014 10:32AM

Moyes was never,never going to be sacked in January. It was unbelievable to many he would even get the sack less than a year after he started, let alone 6 months...

Coat22 · 19-08-2014 10:33AM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

its a hard one to call, i think most people also realise that the players are not good enough to play for our club. would be interesting to see where the blame lies, i would put our current awful squad with the following in order

1 - Fergie.
2 - Woodward (for debacles of last 14 months)
3 - the players themselves.
4 - the glazers.

this is not true, problems were brewing before Swansea. we could have scrapped a win there and the lack of signings would still have people in uproar today.

This is all a bit pointless but surely Gill has got to shoulder a lot of the blame for where we are now.

United have been in a state for at least 4 years now. Buying RVP in 2012 was only papering over the cracks and the opposition that year….well there wasn’t any.

Gill was CEO. He stood back and watched as the playing staff were allowed grow old together (Rio/Evra/Vidic) while key areas of the team were ignored. When Scholes was brought back out of retirement this should have sparked huge warning signs that the manager was starting to lose it. At the very least the transfer window in the summer should have been used to target a world class midfielder. He also watched on as huge payrolls grew, paying for ordinary players who would add nothing to the long term success of the club.

The situation we find ourselves in now is down to the mis management of the last few years of Ferguson and Gill. Moyes was never going to be the man to turn that around. Woodward is too inexperienced at a crucial junction for the club and VG is new into the role. Lets just hope these 2 hit it off over the next 12 months or we could face a Liverpool like period over the next 10 years.

redbaron_99 · 19-08-2014 10:33AM

Lord TSC wrote: »

Moyes was never,never going to be sacked in January. It was unbelievable to many he would even get the sack less than a year after he started, let alone 6 months...

True. I was convinced he would get a second season.

TheDoc · 19-08-2014 10:33AM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Glazerout trending on twitter matters f*ck all when 90% of the people tweeting it, will never set foot inside the ground in their lives.

im "thinking" it based on what i saw and heard inside the stadium on Saturday and before the game.

in saying that, theres nothing that 3 signings wont heal and this protest will not happen if Woodward does his job in the next two weeks.

I've never been to the OT.

Why do you frequently feel that people who support the club, yet havn't been to the ground, are "less" of a fan?

That stuff kinda annoys me, and something you have history of peddling. I'm not going to get fiery over it, you are fully entitled to your opinion and I can understand and appreciate why some people would think they are bigger fans because they attend games.

But I have family who are season ticket holders, and actually take more grievance with the amount of people in that ground that have absolutely NO IDEA about football, and use it as a tourist destination every few months, rather then going to support the team.

Not an attack on you, but I guess as you peddle that line frequently it's just cropping up again. But it genuinelly annoys me a great deal.

bucketybuck · 19-08-2014 10:35AM

irishfeen wrote: »

I actually think the January window might be even more important as LVG Moyes will know every single player inside and out and he will at that stage be well on the way in building his vision for the future.

Just when I thought the sense of deja vu couldn't get any stronger.

homerjay2005 · 19-08-2014 10:35AM

Lord TSC wrote: »

Moyes was never,never going to be sacked in January. It was unbelievable to many he would even get the sack less than a year after he started, let alone 6 months...

due to the crazy contract we gave him, it was never happening. that doesnt mean he didnt deserve it, as he most certainly did.

the scary thing is tho that saturday showed us playing the exact same sh*t football and the manager making the exact same mistakes...:(

sReq | uTeK · 19-08-2014 10:37AM

Yer Aul One wrote: »

I have seen a few reports claiming that we had Kroos agreed but let it slip.

Do people believe that? Tragic if it is true, best passer in the world after Darron Gibson (small joke if anyone read Martinez's comments yesterday)

Small joke but I'd have had Gibson starting for us against Swansea.

Coat22 · 19-08-2014 10:37AM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so soon? Moyes "lost" the dressing room before he even had it and it was officially gone by October/November. he should have been sacked in December, end of January at the latest.

our season was still salvageable in January, but we waited and waited until 4th place was gone - The Glazers then sacked him as it saved them £25million after the Everton game despite the general consensus that he was a goner since late February.

had they replaced him in January, we could have had a chance at 4th, albeit an outside chance.

But replaced him with who?

No serious option would have been available. Giggs would have been given the thing on a caretaker basis but he wouldn’t have done any better.

Moyes was a mistake from the start but unfortunately once we hopped on the bus there was no stopping until the season end was in sight.

redbaron_99 · 19-08-2014 10:37AM

I think what's happening at the club is probably the inevitable negative side effect of having the same manager for a quarter of a century. Some might not want to countenance that, but I believe it's true. It's natural in a way. There was always going to be a couple of years' of mayhem after he left.

twam2008 · 19-08-2014 10:38AM

We could have brought Jesus Christ in in January and still wouldn't have made 4th. I think we have an excellent manager now, who will get us back to where we need to be, but don't think he'll be able to do that this season. Lessons need to be learnt first.

TheDoc · 19-08-2014 10:39AM

It's also worth mentioning that what is happening now with Woodward, isn't far off what FREQUENTLY happened with Gill. The only reason there seems to be rose tinted glasses is because there is such more importance NOW and focus NOW on transfer dealings, and we havn't got the fallback of a strong team firing under the guise of SAF.

Gill frequently forayed into the market, at the upper echelons, to try battle for the signature of a top, ready made player, and came back empty handed. Frequently.

Our recent decade, has been happily buying players from smaller clubs, using our financial clout, and brand ( to organise friendlies and generate revenue for said smaller club) or going in for players no one else really wanted.

People will mention RVP in terms of the last high profile player we signed, but I don't think there was any battle. He declined Juventus quickly, and wasn't really interested in City. He wanted to come to us, that's a different story.

When it comes to high profile players, big deals, where the players have a number of equally opportunistic offers, we frequently lose out. For all our illustrious history, domestic dominance and global appeal, we frequently fall short when it comes to signing a big name.

I can only imagine it has something to do with Europe. We had that sensational run of a hat trick of finals, and then obviouslly winning it previously, but we never really capitlised by stocking up on the elite players.

irishfeen · 19-08-2014 10:40AM

bucketybuck wrote: »

Just when I thought the sense of deja vu couldn't get any stronger.

We are dealing with a different animal with LVG I think ... Unlike Moyes I think LVG will call out his players publicly and would have a SAF approach to a player who speaks out akin to RVP last year...

I would also have no doubt that he will call out the clubs hiarchy if needs be if they repeatedly miss his targets - this is LVGs last job and he will not go quietly ... Anything but IMO..

homerjay2005 · 19-08-2014 10:42AM

TheDoc wrote: »

I've never been to the OT.

Why do you frequently feel that people who support the club, yet havn't been to the ground, are "less" of a fan?

That stuff kinda annoys me, and something you have history of peddling. I'm not going to get fiery over it, you are fully entitled to your opinion and I can understand and appreciate why some people would think they are bigger fans because they attend games.

But I have family who are season ticket holders, and actually take more grievance with the amount of people in that ground that have absolutely NO IDEA about football, and use it as a tourist destination every few months, rather then going to support the team.

Not an attack on you, but I guess as you peddle that line frequently it's just cropping up again. But it genuinelly annoys me a great deal.

that post you have written, is a complete and utter lie. i never said anything in my post about real fans or lesser fans so stop making up s*it.

wont be long before you know who comes along (and its him that appears to have brain washed you into accusing me of complete lies) peddling rubbish about the stretford end fans and how we are all scumbags and and what not.

if i am at it "frequently" as you say, id like you to proove it with lets say, 10+ posts in the last 12 months where i said "people who dont go to the ground, are less fans".

you wont find any...so your talking through your f*cking ass. match going revenue is only 25-30% of our revenue, we need fans all over the globe pumping money into the club for growing our revenue. i have at times said that i value the opinion more of a match goer for certain topics (like gauging opinion, judging the impact fans are having on players, atmosphere etc etc) but apart from that, you accusations are not accurate.

and theres plenty of people who go to games that dont deserve to be supporters of our club (and ive said this many times) so again you are incorrect.

in fact, ive probably been more critical of our match going fans than anything else regarding our fan base - you will see me opposed to the g & g campaign, the booing if Moyes (even though i was against him), the Fellaini incident last week and so on...

but sure go on, accuse me of this real fans rubbish as tends to pop here every 6 months or so.

Mitch Connor · 19-08-2014 10:42AM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

I think what's happening at the club is probably the inevitable negative side effect of having the same manager for a quarter of a century. Some might not want to countenance that, but I believe it's true. It's natural in a way. There was always going to be a couple of years' of mayhem after he left.

BS, imo.

Fergie being there for so long does not excuse the incompetence of Woodward in the transfer market. If we signed the players we should be signing, we wouldn't be in this mess, or at least we'd see things were likely to get better soon enough.

Fergie left a bit of a mess alright, but not one that was impossible to fix. We could all see the issues, you can't blame Fergie for Woodward, Moyes, LVG or the Glazers (whichever you may feel deserves some blame now) being incapable of strengthening the squad.

Rayne Wooney · 19-08-2014 10:44AM

If Rojo and Blind were our only signings we would be absolutely desperate, frantically trying to get anybody in during the January window because I think we will have a poor run before January.

It's going to take a few more months for LvGs philosophy to rub off on the players, top class midfielders and defenders would ease up the pressure

Quibbling over 24-28 million for Benatia and 45 million for Vidal if true is ridiculous, the club needs major investment in those positions because of the lack of it in past years, a chunk of cash will have to be spent in one window to get things back on track and then we will only have to add 1 or 2 players each summer if needed like City and Arsenal

Will I Amnt · 19-08-2014 10:46AM

There will be lads here 10 minutes before the transfer window shuts still hoping for some news on Vidal.

Tom.D.BJJ · 19-08-2014 10:49AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

the incompetence of Woodward in the transfer market

I dont agree with much any more, but this sums up our transfer dealing for the past two years. Woodward is completely incomepetent when it come to buying players. He should have that responsibility removed asap

Very angry

Coat22 · 19-08-2014 10:50AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

BS, imo.

Fergie being there for so long does not excuse the incompetence of Woodward in the transfer market. If we signed the players we should be signing, we wouldn't be in this mess, or at least we'd see things were likely to get better soon enough.

Fergie left a bit of a mess alright, but not one that was impossible to fix. We could all see the issues, you can't blame Fergie for Woodward, Moyes, LVG or the Glazers (whichever you may feel deserves some blame now) being incapable of strengthening the squad.

Fergie (and Gill) were like Bertie - bit of a mess - they left a pile of S**T for their successors to sort out.

I know where you're coming from, sign a top quality CM and a couple of top quality CBs and a lot could be put right but the fact is the rest of Europe knows they have United over a barrell and can hold them to ransom while the same players see more glamour in playing in Madrid / Barcelona / Munich / London.

bucketybuck · 19-08-2014 10:52AM

irishfeen wrote: »

We are dealing with a different animal with LVG I think ... Unlike Moyes I think LVG will call out his players publicly and would have a SAF approach to a player who speaks out akin to RVP last year...

I would also have no doubt that he will call out the clubs hiarchy if needs be if they repeatedly miss his targets - this is LVGs last job and he will not go quietly ... Anything but IMO..

Its not his calling out of the players that would concern me, its repeating the non-event that was last Januarys transfer window. Just like last year we will probably find that the right targets are not available in January, or deals are harder to make, or the ACON complicates things, or LVG needs more time to assess the mascots or whatever the latest excuse for our woeful transfer policy is.

Thats why I said deja vu, because its exactly the same as this point last summer and the club really should have learnt its lessons.

TheDoc · 19-08-2014 10:52AM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

that post you have written, is a complete and utter lie. i never said anything in my post about real fans or lesser fans so stop making up s*it.

wont be long before you know who comes along (and its him that appears to have brain washed you into accusing me of complete lies) peddling rubbish about the stretford end fans and how we are all scumbags and and what not.

if i am at it "frequently" as you say, id like you to proove it with lets say, 10+ posts in the last 12 months where i said "people who dont go to the ground, are less fans".

you wont find any...so your talking through your f*cking ass.

Glazerout trending on twitter matters f*ck all when 90% of the people tweeting it, will never set foot inside the ground in their lives.

That is a direct quote from you, with the implication that these people simply don't matter. If you meant something else, my apologies.

But you DO have history in this, as you've been the centre of this sort of debate a good few times I can recall over the last two years.

And like I said if you toe that line, its perfectly fine. I don't like it though, and think its a pretty condescending attitude. And I see it more frequently on other forums to be fair, which is understandable considering they are UK based forums with probably more frequently visiting fans.

I'm also not entirely clear on who you are referring to, but I can assure you I've not been brainwashed. As someone who hasn't gone to the ground, I'm not actually familiar with the various groups and sections in the crowd, and to be honest pay little to no attention to it, as I'm typically watching football

So unless there was alternate meaning to your direct quote above, I doubt I'm talking out of my ass. And I'm perfectly fine with people that have that viewpoint, I think it's just harsh though.

Don't be getting overly defensive of it, I've issue with the thought process and opinion(which is held by many to be fair), not with you making it.

RayCun · 19-08-2014 10:55AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Fergie being there for so long does not excuse the incompetence of Woodward in the transfer market.

Nobody even knows that it's Woodward who is the problem:rolleyes:
It's like posters blaming Giggs for Valencia getting a new contract, or Herrera being subbed. People decide who the hate figure is and the bad decisions are their fault.

But the fact that Ferguson was there for so long, and was such a dominating influence on the club, had to mean that there would be a vacuum when he left. And the club had years of avoiding big money transfers - Berbatov was a spite signing, and Van Persie wanted to move to us - because we had to get 'value', buy young and improving players instead of the finished product.

TheDoc · 19-08-2014 10:55AM

Coat22 wrote: »

Fergie (and Gill) were like Bertie - bit of a mess - they left a pile of S**T for their successors to sort out.

I know where you're coming from, sign a top quality CM and a couple of top quality CBs and a lot could be put right but the fact is the rest of Europe knows they have United over a barrell and can hold them to ransom while the same players see more glamour in playing in Madrid / Barcelona / Munich / London.

The continued competitiveness of the team, and winning the title here and there, completely shrowded the defencies the club have had way before Moyes arrived.

The club has struggled in the transfer market buying from the top shelf, and the supposed brilliant youth acadamy is a total myth and fabrication.

beno619 · 19-08-2014 10:56AM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

If Rojo and Blind were our only signings we would be absolutely desperate, frantically trying to get anybody in during the January window because I think we will have a poor run before January.

I think Blind would be a decent CM option and leaves the door open for Strootman or Vidal.

The utility tag thats been attached to him is unfair and unflattering as from what ive heard he's a fine midfield player.

TheDoc · 19-08-2014 10:56AM

RayCun wrote: »

Berbatov was a spite signing,

Who were we spiting by buying Berbatov?

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

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