I need feminism because...

iwantmydinner · 06-08-2014 12:40PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Ok does anybody have a bit more information about the whole thing than a blog and fairly basic article?

That's part of the point though. It hasn't been reported properly. It's not seen as that big of a deal.

Dolbert · 06-08-2014 12:41PM

eviltwin wrote: »

But if she had refused how can the midwife do it against her will, that's the bit I don't get, did she hold her down and do it anyway?

She claims that the midwife said she was 'going to check on her', and broke the membranes without telling her. The.midwife claims it was discussed beforehand.

meeeeh · 06-08-2014 12:44PM

iwantmydinner wrote: »

That's part of the point though. It hasn't been reported properly. It's not seen as that big of a deal.

Maybe because it wasn't or maybe it is. The fact is nobody really knows and somebody deciding the case should go to the supreme court on the basis of couple of sentences isn't exactly trustworthy. It's an opinion piece, yet nobody really knows what was going on except woman suing saying she didn't consent to procedure. We know nothing what other medical witnesses said or any other details.

iwantmydinner · 06-08-2014 12:52PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Maybe because it wasn't or maybe it is. The fact is nobody really knows and somebody deciding the case should go to the supreme court on the basis of couple of sentences isn't exactly trustworthy. It's an opinion piece, yet nobody really knows what was going on except woman suing saying she didn't consent to procedure. We know nothing what other medical witnesses said or any other details.

I don't get your point. The writer formed an opinion based on the info available to her, while pointing to the caveat that the case was woefully under-reported. What's the problem?

meeeeh · 06-08-2014 01:07PM

iwantmydinner wrote: »

I don't get your point. The writer formed an opinion based on the info available to her, while pointing to the caveat that the case was woefully under-reported. What's the problem?

It's hardly fact though is it? I'm just saying, before we start collecting money for the lawsuit in the supreme court or deciding to give birth outside of the country.

NamelessPhil · 06-08-2014 02:03PM

The writer of the blog must have more information available to them than that reported in the Irish Examiner article. There is no mention in the newspaper article of anyone seeking consent for a medical procedure, or of the woman's wishes being ignored.

I'll be waiting for the actual judgment on the Courts website. All that is reported is that Ms. Hamilton sued the HSE for the consequences of the ceasarean section.

rainbow kirby · 07-08-2014 12:15PM

More detailed article on the AIMS Ireland blog today.

Frito · 07-08-2014 10:53PM

I wonder if this lady's case has been referred to an bord Altranais.

sunshine and showers · 10-08-2014 04:16PM

Because this is how women's rugby is still reported on.

http://balls.ie/rugby/article-exactly-irish-womens-rugby-without/

YumCha · 10-08-2014 04:33PM

sunshine and showers wrote: »

Because this is how women's rugby is still reported on.

http://balls.ie/rugby/article-exactly-irish-womens-rugby-without/

Ughhhhhhh Niamh Horan has been responsible for some really terrible articles in recent memory, I'd go looking for them but I've used up my hate-reading quota for the day just with that rugby one...

iwantmydinner · 10-08-2014 04:41PM

sunshine and showers wrote: »

Because this is how women's rugby is still reported on.

http://balls.ie/rugby/article-exactly-irish-womens-rugby-without/

Rage rage raaaaaaaaage

kylith · 10-08-2014 07:50PM

It could be worse. Have a google for "Women's American Football" if you want to get really depressed. It's a shame that even in sport women are expected to be sexualised.

kylith · 11-08-2014 07:36AM

Limevapour wrote: »

I don't think your average woman in the western world needs feminism. In the western world women have achieved equality and in many areas are treated with special privilege such as sentencing in the courts. The women who really need feminism are those in Saudi Arabia and other such countries where women are treated like second class citizens. Feminsim in the western world is more like a trade union for women, equality is an afterthought.

All women everywhere need feminism. The problem is that in some quarters feminism has been corrupted from equality between men and women into an anti-male movement.

But to say that women in the west don't need feminism because women in the Middle East have it worse is like saying that you don't deserve sympathy for your broken leg because some people are in a wheelchair.

If you don't think that in the West women are seen as second class citizens then why, in my post you quoted, are women playing a professional sport wearing little more that a pair of knickers and a Wonderbra? I don't see the All Blacks competing in posing pouches. It's because the women in that league (because there are some proper female American Football leagues) are nothing more than something for men to **** over - it's just the same as mud wrestling or foxy-boxing. Someone, somewhere thought that women are worth so little as athletes that the only way to get anyone to watch is for them to be practically naked. Once again, women are only of worth if they are sexually appealing.

Kevlar Bay · 11-08-2014 07:50AM

kylith wrote: »

All women everywhere need feminism. The problem is that in some quarters feminism has been corrupted from equality between men and women into an anti-male movement.

But to say that women in the west don't need feminism because women in the Middle East have it worse is like saying that you don't deserve sympathy for your broken leg because some people are in a wheelchair.

If you don't think that in the West women are seen as second class citizens then why, in my post you quoted, are women playing a professional sport wearing little more that a pair of knickers and a Wonderbra? I don't see the All Blacks competing in posing pouches. It's because the women in that league (because there are some proper female American Football leagues) are nothing more than something for men to **** over - it's just the same as mud wrestling or foxy-boxing. Someone, somewhere thought that women are worth so little as athletes that the only way to get anyone to watch is for them to be practically naked. Once again, women are only of worth if they are sexually appealing.

Women in the west are most definitely not second class citizens. Women are more often seen in less clothing because it sells, attractive young women are valued highly because they are fertile, and are more likely to produce hsealthy offspring.You can't dictate to people what they can and can't value. It is each individual's right the value whatever they want. Women in the western world have equal rights, in some circumstances they have more than equal rights.

kylith · 11-08-2014 08:19AM

Kevlar Bay wrote: »

Women in the west are most definitely not second class citizens. Women are more often seen in less clothing because it sells, attractive young women are valued highly because they are fertile, and are more likely to produce hsealthy offspring.You can't dictate to people what they can and can't value. It is each individual's right the value whatever they want. Women in the western world have equal rights, in some circumstances they have more than equal rights.

Seeing women as commodities, or as good breeding stock, isn't seeing them as lesser than men?

Kevlar Bay · 11-08-2014 08:32AM

kylith wrote: »

Seeing women as commodities, or as good breeding stock, isn't seeing them as lesser than men?

Who said anything about seeing women as commodities? Women's youth and fertility is simply highly valued. There are corresponding traits in men that are highly valued. Do you think you should be able to dictate to people what they should and shouldn't value?

kylith · 11-08-2014 08:46AM

Kevlar Bay wrote: »

Who said anything about seeing women as commodities? Women's youth and fertility is simply highly valued. There are corresponding traits in men that are highly valued. Do you think you should be able to dictate to people what they should and shouldn't value?

"Women are more often seen in less clothing because it sells" is seeing women as something to be sold, or to be used to sell something. This is seeing them as a commodity.

And yes, if someone were to tell me that they are with a woman solely because of how she looks then I would tell them that they have their values arseways. A woman, or man, should be valued because of their intelligence, integrity, honesty, and personality, not because of what they look like.

meeeeh · 11-08-2014 09:05AM

Kevlar Bay wrote: »

Who said anything about seeing women as commodities? Women's youth and fertility is simply highly valued. There are corresponding traits in men that are highly valued. Do you think you should be able to dictate to people what they should and shouldn't value?

Yes and it works both ways. I find hurling or irish football most unapealing because how their outfits look. To somebody who didn't grow up with the sport there is very little to sell the sport or it's participants to.

Seriously though I think there is a whole wider debate about women in sport. I think the sports women like to participate and are good in should be more recognised. Without the obvious jokes about female beach volleyball, I think female volleyball is actually more interesting to watch because there is more play and less just power. Yes women succeeding in rugby is good. But it is a sport that is fairly niche even as a male sport and even more in it's female version. And it is less interesting. I'm rambling but it would be nice that sports where women shine and are interesting to each should get more attention. Not just women doing well in very male dominated sports getting sometimes a bit patronising attention.

Kevlar Bay · 11-08-2014 10:11AM

kylith wrote: »

"Women are more often seen in less clothing because it sells" is seeing women as something to be sold, or to be used to sell something. This is seeing them as a commodity.

And yes, if someone were to tell me that they are with a woman solely because of how she looks then I would tell them that they have their values arseways. A woman, or man, should be valued because of their intelligence, integrity, honesty, and personality, not because of what they look like.

and thats the same in all ares of life, women are no more treated as commodities as anyone else.

again I ask , what rights do women not have?

iwantmydinner · 11-08-2014 10:14AM

Kevlar Bay wrote: »

and thats the same in all ares of life, women are no more treated as commodities as anyone else.

Mmmkay.

11-08-2014 10:24AM

Kevlar Bay, re reg troll, banned.

B0jangles · 11-08-2014 10:29AM

This is kind of a vague thing but I see it regularly enough for it to be really annoying - you know when you are having a (usually online) discussion about say, street harrassment of women, and a few woman posters tell their personal experiences of being pestered. Then a guy will show up and keep saying stuff about how he's never seen stuff like this happen, and none of his female friends have ever told him about being harrassed and maybe the women talking about it are exaggerating or imagining things. And he'll keep going on like this no matter how many women describe their own experiences.

Then one other guy shows up and say "No, it's true I've seen it happen".

And the original doubting thomas will be all "ok, really, wow, that's crazy".

A bit rambling, I think you'll recognise what I'm talking about

iwantmydinner · 11-08-2014 10:33AM

B0jangles wrote: »

This is kind of a vague thing but I see it regularly enough for it to be really annoying - you know when you are having a (usually online) discussion about say, street harrassment of women, and a few woman posters tell their personal experiences of being pestered. Then a guy will show up and keep saying stuff about how he's never seen stuff like this happen, and none of his female friends have ever told him about being harrassed and maybe the women talking about it are exaggerating or imagining things. And he'll keep going on like this no matter how many women describe their own experiences.

Then one other guy shows up and say "No, it's true I've seen it happen".

And the original doubting thomas will be all "ok, really, wow, that's crazy".

A bit rambling, I think you'll recognise what I'm talking about

That gnawing, disappointing, sinking feeling that one male voice is valued more than several female voices? I hear ye.

Dolbert · 11-08-2014 10:38AM

B0jangles wrote: »

This is kind of a vague thing but I see it regularly enough for it to be really annoying - you know when you are having a (usually online) discussion about say, street harrassment of women, and a few woman posters tell their personal experiences of being pestered. Then a guy will show up and keep saying stuff about how he's never seen stuff like this happen, and none of his female friends have ever told him about being harrassed and maybe the women talking about it are exaggerating or imagining things. And he'll keep going on like this no matter how many women describe their own experiences.

Then one other guy shows up and say "No, it's true I've seen it happen".

And the original doubting thomas will be all "ok, really, wow, that's crazy".

A bit rambling, I think you'll recognise what I'm talking about

Was just reading this when I saw your post

Next Time Someone Says Women Aren't Victims Of Harassment, Show Them This.

Lemonwater107 · 11-08-2014 10:49AM

kylith wrote: »

Seeing women as commodities, or as good breeding stock, isn't seeing them as lesser than men?

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Particular qualities in women are valued due to their reproductive value, it's similar for men, particular values in men. are valued more due to their reproductive value.

That conclusion you came to is sloppy and lazy.

People are entitled to value whatever they want. Women have at least equal rights to men in Ireland.

The rights of women would be served using precious resources where they actually don't have equal rights, such as third world countries.

You can't dictate what people should value. That's everyone's right.

Trying to change people's vales is futile, they are institutions Clive and honed through evolution.

Links234 · 11-08-2014 11:11AM

You know, part of what I think it is, is that a lot of people don't think sexism is an issue any more because they think "we got equal rights, don't we?" It's the same way that people don't think racism is much of a problem in America any more because Jim Crow laws and anti-miscegination laws got struck down, but the reality is racism is still a huge issue and we've a long way to go yet.

Annasopra · 11-08-2014 12:54PM

Dolbert wrote: »

Was just reading this when I saw your post

Next Time Someone Says Women Aren't Victims Of Harassment, Show Them This.

Was just about to post the same thing

Da Shins Kelly · 11-08-2014 02:41PM

B0jangles wrote: »

This is kind of a vague thing but I see it regularly enough for it to be really annoying - you know when you are having a (usually online) discussion about say, street harrassment of women, and a few woman posters tell their personal experiences of being pestered. Then a guy will show up and keep saying stuff about how he's never seen stuff like this happen, and none of his female friends have ever told him about being harrassed and maybe the women talking about it are exaggerating or imagining things. And he'll keep going on like this no matter how many women describe their own experiences.

Then one other guy shows up and say "No, it's true I've seen it happen".

And the original doubting thomas will be all "ok, really, wow, that's crazy".

A bit rambling, I think you'll recognise what I'm talking about

The fact that women's experiences are consistently devalued is proof enough of why we still need feminism. Feminism provides a space for women to talk about their experiences without being shouted down or told that they're imagining it, exaggerating, etc. Of course you'll always find men who want to push their way into this space in order to continue to dictate to women how they should or shouldn't feel about certain experiences or issues. I honestly think that attitude stems from some men's inability to accept that there is a space in which they're not in control of the conversation, since in pretty much every other walk of life the dominant voices tend to be male.

(Obviously this doesn't mean that men can't get involved in a feminist conversation, simply talking about those who only want to join the conversation so they can tell women they're wrong)

eviltwin · 11-08-2014 02:46PM

Its pretty depressing that in a safe space like this where the thread title and the forum itself give a clue to the nature of the discussion that you still get the people who try and reduce our experiences to little more than paranoia so you can imagine how much worse it must be in the real world.

Scarinae · 11-08-2014 03:00PM

Men can definitely get involved in a feminist conversation. Did anyone see Robert Webb's piece in the New Statesman last week? I only saw it today when it was mentioned on thejournal.ie. Here is part of it, slightly edited to keep the swear words in:

Guys, your doctor might tell you to lose a few pounds – but the taxi driver will not; the Daily Mail will not. You won’t open the Sun and compare your own cock to that of a well-endowed model. You won’t get dressed for a party and worry if you look like a slut, or get called a slut, or get raped on the way home “because you look like a slut”. In the rare event that you do get raped, the police won’t seem to mind what you were wearing. Lawyers won’t ask what you were wearing; your mother won’t ask what you were wearing.

When you dance in a ballroom, you won’t have to do it backwards in high heels; when you speak in a boardroom, you won’t have to second-guess yourself in case you’re coming across as “shrill”. You reached that boardroom with the grain, not against it. You didn’t need to look hard for role models. If they cut your genitals when you were an infant, they didn’t expect it to make much difference to your enjoyment of sex. If they cut your genitals while you were giving birth . . . Ah, but then you will never give birth and nobody will make you feel guilty about whether you breastfeed or not. You don’t judge yourself for eating a cake; you haven’t, since childhood, been encouraged by the media and by every careless comment from your family to have a relationship with food that borders on psychosis.

Speaking of madness, you can be angry without being accused of hysteria. You can be spiteful and no one will call you a “bitch”, although they might call you a “cnut” or a “twat” or a “woman”. You never had it explained to you and you never had to figure it out for yourself that in this world, you’re slightly wrong. That everything is going to be made more difficult for you than for the opposite sex. You didn’t notice – and why would you? Nobody judges your driving by the colour of your fcuking hair.

I need feminism because...

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