'Public Order Unit'

Capri · 26-06-2014 7:11pm #1

Down by the port today, see these boiler suited/baseball capped members from a distance - 'Wonder what the ARU are doing in the port?'

Went into the shop and I see 'Public Order Unit' on the caps :rolleyes:
Now, to the best of my knowledge, the Irish are not as easily roused as the French so WHY spend money and resources on creating a CRS-type riot squad that , like the Traffic Corps / ARU / etc will feel themselves 'above' tackling ordinary criminal behaviour. Every one of these 'specialist' units are usually miles away from the action when it does happen and it's the ordinary member in his Hyundai i30 that has to face the criminal first before these 'specialists' show up to claim the credit for basically mopping up what the beat-Garda has tackled in the first instance.( Remember years ago, covert op. to ID a house where a shotgun had been seen, next thing SDU come screaming down the road and blew it :mad::mad: )

Little CuChulainn · 26-06-2014 7:37pm

Public Order Units are just regular Gardaí, who are assigned to that duty for the day. While it's all very good to say the regular Gardaí can handle it, they shouldn't have to. The public order units are able to take a lot more punishment and can disperse crowds much easier. They are there in case a situation arises where they are needed. If a situation gets beyond the control of the Gardaí on regular duty then they step in. And to be perfectly honest, there are some areas who could do with more of them.

tricky D · 26-06-2014 7:46pm

They were definitely required recently over many days in Howth and Portmarnock and made quite a difference and they certainly weren't mopping up after the regular Gardaí or miles away.

[Deleted User] · 26-06-2014 9:20pm

Capri wrote: »

Down by the port today, see these boiler suited/baseball capped members from a distance - 'Wonder what the ARU are doing in the port?'
Went into the shop and I see 'Public Order Unit' on the caps :rolleyes:
Now, to the best of my knowledge, the Irish are not as easily roused as the French so WHY spend money and resources on creating a CRS-type riot squad that , like the Traffic Corps / ARU / etc will feel themselves 'above' tackling ordinary criminal behaviour. Every one of these 'specialist' units are usually miles away from the action when it does happen and it's the ordinary member in his Hyundai i30 that has to face the criminal first before these 'specialists' show up to claim the credit for basically mopping up what the beat-Garda has tackled in the first instance.( Remember years ago, covert op. to ID a house where a shotgun had been seen, next thing SDU come screaming down the road and blew it :mad::mad: )

Are you serious? We should have them available all the time not only for known busy days or trying to make one up at short notice.

Locust · 01-07-2014 1:51am

Capri wrote: »

WHY spend money and resources on creating a CRS-type riot squad that , like the Traffic Corps / ARU / etc will feel themselves 'above' tackling ordinary criminal behaviour.

Because they are needed. The Public Order Unit are well established and have been around for a lot of years, you just don't see them as they are normally hidden away. The various situations dictate where they are needed, as mentioned large scale public disorder on the beaches, rival clubs playing at football matches, protests, violent prisoners etc...

They are not meant for facing down 'criminals' and responding to regular crime type calls. As the cap suggests - they deal with 'public order' type situations that have or could get out of hand.

I for one am relieved to see them deployed and can control and disperse an unruly crowd very well.

markpb · 01-07-2014 9:04am

What was going on at the port that required their presence?

[Deleted User] · 01-07-2014 2:03pm

markpb wrote: »

What was going on at the port that required their presence?

Topaz.

sdanseo · 04-07-2014 1:42am

foreign wrote: »

Topaz.

They're always in there in numbers. Same with another one in Swords; and funny enough they're both 24hr walk-in open.

The two safest petrol stations in Ireland? :rolleyes:

[Deleted User] · 04-07-2014 2:25am

sdeire wrote: »

They're always in there in numbers. Same with another one in Swords; and funny enough they're both 24hr walk-in open.

The two safest petrol stations in Ireland? :rolleyes:

You do know that Gardaí are not robots and are allowed to have breaks and eat food don't you?

sdanseo · 04-07-2014 2:28am

foreign wrote: »

You do know that Gardaí are not robots and are allowed to have breaks and eat food don't you?

I would have thought I've been round here long enough for the regulars to know I'm a great fan of the Gardaí, and a current applicant.

Was tongue in cheek, wind it in

BaronVon · 04-07-2014 9:21am

The Public Order unit are deployed "when regular policing breaks down". They are often on duty at big events, but are held back out of public view unless necessary to deploy them.

As stated, they are made up of regular Gardaí, as are normally drafted in as an extra resource.

[Deleted User] · 04-07-2014 1:07pm

sdeire wrote: »

I would have thought I've been round here long enough for the regulars to know I'm a great fan of the Gardaí, and a current applicant.

Was tongue in cheek, wind it in

I did think it was out of character for you!

Scouser · 04-07-2014 4:03pm

foreign wrote: »

You do know that Gardaí are not robots and are allowed to have breaks and eat food don't you?

plenty would disagree foreign :rolleyes:

same plenty would say that your personal health and saftey is of less importance to the rest, but sure thats another days work

source · 05-07-2014 5:56am

Op 3 words in defence of the public order unit's existence:

Love Ulster riots.

AlekSmart · 20-07-2014 10:17pm

Locust wrote: »

Because they are needed. The Public Order Unit are well established and have been around for a lot of years, you just don't see them as they are normally hidden away. The various situations dictate where they are needed, as mentioned large scale public disorder on the beaches, rival clubs playing at football matches, protests, violent prisoners etc...

They are not meant for facing down 'criminals' and responding to regular crime type calls. As the cap suggests - they deal with 'public order' type situations that have or could get out of hand.

I for one am relieved to see them deployed and can control and disperse an unruly crowd very well.

I'm of the opinion that individual Rank and File Gardai are,all too often,being placed in difficult and dangerous situations by the reluctance of Garda Senior Operational Management to deploy the appropriate resources.

Take,for example the U.S. Embassy situation in this clip.

With the Israeli/Palestinian situation now,once more,on the international protest stage,expecting ordinary Members to simply stand and wait for these situations to develop is,from my perspective,very lackadaisical force management.

I believed that "Love Ulster" had belatedly woken Senior Garda Management to the ever present dangers of orchestrated events,but from this video,I'm left wondering yet again ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQwpP8gwiz4

Any opinions from posters ?

[Deleted User] · 20-07-2014 10:23pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that individual Rank and File Gardai are,all too often,being placed in difficult and dangerous situations by the reluctance of Garda Senior Operational Management to deploy the appropriate resources.

Take,for example the U.S. Embassy situation in this clip.

With the Israeli/Palestinian situation now,once more,on the international protest stage,expecting ordinary Members to simply stand and wait for these situations to develop is,from my perspective,very lackadaisical force management.

I believed that "Love Ulster" had belatedly woken Senior Garda Management to the ever present dangers of orchestrated events,but from this video,I'm left wondering yet again ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQwpP8gwiz4

Any opinions from posters ?

It was a 99% peaceful protest. What would the public order unit have done differently?

AlekSmart · 20-07-2014 11:04pm

foreign wrote: »

It was a 99% peaceful protest. What would the public order unit have done differently?

Granted Foreign,it may appear 99% peaceful to you,but that clip is going to prove valuable to many only too keen to undermine the very society the Gardai are tasked with protecting.

My own opinion is that the visual impact alone of a POU deployment whilst overt would also send out a message similar to what the sight of units such as CRS in France does.

Seeing Traffic Unit Motorcycle Gardai being engaged in what is Public Order activity would suggest some lack of appreciation on the part of Senior Management.

Listening to the sound track alone give's some idea of the level of regard the Gardai are now held in by many in Ireland,and I'm suggesting that none of the circumstances leading up to that clip will be the focus,but instead the Gardai involved will almost certainly be subject to significant investigation.

Effective deployment of the correct Public Order resources should have prevented this incident rather than what will,almost certainly,become a news item in the days to come ?

Five Lamps · 21-07-2014 12:34am

foreign wrote: »

It was a 99% peaceful protest. What would the public order unit have done differently?

I presume training on moving protestors?

I'm sure both sides in the clip will have their own view of events but certainly the way the protestor was manhandled and his head contacting the ground does not look good for the members involved. Plus some of the retorts from Gardai are at best unprofessional. Having said that, fair play to the Garda who assisted the protestor and kept his cool despite some of the verbal abuse from bystanders.

[Deleted User] · 21-07-2014 12:42am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Granted Foreign,it may appear 99% peaceful to you,but that clip is going to prove valuable to many only too keen to undermine the very society the Gardai are tasked with protecting.

My own opinion is that the visual impact alone of a POU deployment whilst overt would also send out a message similar to what the sight of units such as CRS in France does.

Seeing Traffic Unit Motorcycle Gardai being engaged in what is Public Order activity would suggest some lack of appreciation on the part of Senior Management.

Listening to the sound track alone give's some idea of the level of regard the Gardai are now held in by many in Ireland,and I'm suggesting that none of the circumstances leading up to that clip will be the focus,but instead the Gardai involved will almost certainly be subject to significant investigation.

Effective deployment of the correct Public Order resources should have prevented this incident rather than what will,almost certainly,become a news item in the days to come ?

So we should put out a public order unit because approximately a dozen people put of a couple of thousand might block a road?

As I've said before, public order units are for when normal policing breaks down.

And CRS don't seem to put off the French too much.

AlekSmart · 21-07-2014 11:03am

foreign wrote: »

So we should put out a public order unit because approximately a dozen people put of a couple of thousand might block a road?

Yes,In this case I believe that would have been a prudent decision,given the target and the emotions surrounding the protest.Deploying a POU in a visible manner does not necessarily entail actually using them,but it sends a very clear message to those who might wish to test the Policing water.

As I've said before, public order units are for when normal policing breaks down.

And CRS don't seem to put off the French too much.

Perhaps,although I regard the Public Order Unit as an integral part of "Normal Policing" with the State having a last resort of Military Forces acting "In Aid of The Civil Power" for when "Normal" Policing does break down ?

The French attitude to street protest differs somewhat from our own,but from experience,the appearance of CRS units does tend to see those "less committed" protesters withdraw,and go home,leaving the activists to continue their business.

However,the rules of engagement then tend to be VERY clearly understood by ALL in those situations.

I came across an interesting Article from 2006,which touches on the subject of Garda Management

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fearful-outoftouch-police-force-needs-radical-reform-26411921.html

The implication is clear: the numbers of gardai employed by the State is at an all-time high, the annual budget is in excess of ?1.4bn and the Garda training school is full, yet efficiency and productivity is low. In management speak, the resource is poorly managed: thousands of gardai, but not in the right places. It is not unique to the gardai, but is a common condition in the public service. We have more nurses per head of population than most developed countries, yet have a health service that is incapable of managing them. The answer, as always, is reform, but reform is resisted by the unions and is feared by politicians who do not want noisy confrontation.

Sierra Oscar · 21-07-2014 11:39am

AlekSmart wrote: »

My own opinion is that the visual impact alone of a POU deployment whilst overt would also send out a message similar to what the sight of units such as CRS in France does.

Or it could have the entirely opposite impact and only lead to an increase in tensions.

The Gardai on the scene were evidently well able to handle the situation throughout the protest and public order did not break down. I don't see why the POU needed to be deployed in that case. We don't live in a police state.

AlekSmart wrote: »

The French attitude to street protest differs somewhat from our own,but from experience,the appearance of CRS units does tend to see those "less committed" protesters withdraw,and go home,leaving the activists to continue their business.

Em yeah the French attitude differs immensely. The French government decided to ban a Gaza protest organized last Saturday and deployed the CRS in advance. Despite that a riot ensued. Not hugely surprising as that is what tends to happen when you do not leave an outlet for tension to escape through peaceful protests. France has a huge problem with public unrest and the state experiences frequent riots. I am not sure we should follow the French example all that much when it comes to policing and community relations.

I prefer the way we deal with discontent tbh.

gctest50 · 21-07-2014 11:47am

Five Lamps wrote: »

.......
I'm sure both sides in the clip will have their own view of events but certainly the way the protestor was manhandled and his head contacting the ground does not look good for the members involved.......

He shouldn't have been there if he was so seizure prone maybe ?

That would be like me ( IDDM ) going climbing without food , be found down a crevasse and blaming the mountain

[Deleted User] · 21-07-2014 12:35pm

Alek, you obviously don't understand policing public events. There are assessments carried out and appropriate resources deployed.

The public order unit are there in the transits but we're not needed. The regular Gardaí were able and did deal with what occurred.

AlekSmart · 21-07-2014 12:47pm

gctest50 wrote: »

He shouldn't have been there if he was so seizure prone maybe ?

That would be like me ( IDDM ) going climbing without food , be found down a crevasse and blaming the mountain

Difficult call to make on the rights of this lad to protest.

If he's an Adult living with Epilepsy,and knows how to manage it then he's good to go.

However,if he is under the care and supervision of others,then the responsibility issue becomes less clear.

In the case of this video,we don't know what his situation is,but from my viewing,the older Gent in the beige coat appears to have some level of input into what occurred.

This gent also appears reluctant to comply with Garda requests and makes several attempts to shrug-off the guidance of the Gardai.

He then appears to play a significant role in administering whatever medication is available.

It's a very short clip from an otherwise low-key event,however,I remain of the opinion that the protesters (or opportunists amongst them) were able to play upon and expand a deficiency in Garda tactics on the day.

What the French do or don't do is entirely academic,as we have a Policing system entirely of our own making...sometimes it works,sometimes it works less well,but it does appear to me that Individual Gardai tend to be placed in Catch22 situations which then end up being second-guessed to infinity from the comfort of a leather-backed armchair.

The video clip is being "marketed" as an example of Garda Brutality and of the Irish State actively supporting Israeli Government policy.

The real-world is never quite so cut n dried ?

Little CuChulainn · 21-07-2014 1:10pm

Do people actually think that fit was genuine? He was prompted three times by a woman shouting.

"He's GOING to have a fit. He's having a fit. HE'S HAVING A FIT." Guy starts making gurgling noises and shaking.

His head shouldn't have been dragged along the road. That's clear. I doubt it was deliberate though. It's pretty clear that two Gardaí were carrying him off as he was flailing like mad. The one at his head lost his grip and it took the second one a couple of seconds to notice. If people think that is police brutality they live very sheltered lives.

What really stands out to me is the behaviour of the other protestors. Swearing and insulting like mad. I'm surprised arrests weren't made. That's the kind of talk you get from real scumbags in the roughest parts of the country.

Rothmans · 21-07-2014 1:35pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Do people actually think that fir was genuine? He was prompted three times by a woman shouting.

"He's GOING to have a fit. He's having a fit. HE'S HAVING A FIT." Guy starts making gurgling noises and shaking.

His head shouldn't have been dragged along the road. That's clear. I doubt it was deliberate though. It's pretty clear that two Gardaí were carrying him off as he was flailing like mad. The one at his head lost his grip and it took the second one a couple of seconds to notice. If people think that is police brutality they live very sheltered lives.

What really stands out to me is the behaviour of the other protestors. Swearing and insulting like mad. I'm surprised arrests weren't made. That's the kind of talk you get from real scumbags in the roughest parts of the country.

That's what I was thinking. Completely vile behaviour by those protesters. You wouldn't hear the likes of it from the junkies on O'Connell street and Abbey street.

BaronVon · 21-07-2014 2:05pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that individual Rank and File Gardai are,all too often,being placed in difficult and dangerous situations by the reluctance of Garda Senior Operational Management to deploy the appropriate resources.

I would agree with this. You rarely see too many Garda resources being deployed, and with Garda resources below the bare minimum, any extra resources would cost overtime.

However, with regard to the Public Order Unit, they may have been on standby for that protest, we don't know. Public Order Unit's are only deployed when things turn nasty and the uniformed Guards aren't able to cope. Clearly that was not the case in the posted video.

[Deleted User] · 21-07-2014 2:20pm

infacteh wrote: »

I would agree with this. You rarely see too many Garda resources being deployed, and with Garda resources below the bare minimum, any extra resources would cost overtime.

However, with regard to the Public Order Unit, they may have been on standby for that protest, we don't know. Public Order Unit's are only deployed when things turn nasty and the uniformed Guards aren't able to cope. Clearly that was not the case in the posted video.

They would be in the transits in the video.

'Public Order Unit'

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