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Absolving yourself of parental responsibility.

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Comments

  • #32
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    diveout wrote: »
    Ok. So what is your idea of ideal/perfect behavior in a four year old boy? You assume average IQ, you assume no sensory issues, normal sensitivities, stable background, no economic hardship, happy in school, two loving parents at home, no pathologies like ADHD, is neuro-typical, no bullying at school or in the neighborhood, no dietary issues...

    Let's assume a perfect four year old boy in idylliic circumstances. What is your idea of how he should behave at all times? And how would you go about insuring that he does that?

    And after you have come up with that plan, maybe come up with some plans for all the other myriad infinite variations that occur in different children. And let us all know how to raise our kids so they can fit into whatever YOUR ideal of a human should be.


    Thanks.

    I think you need to relax. I simply pointed out that using "circumstances" to absolve oneself of parental repsonibility is a cop out, when there are those who are parenting under worse circumstances and doing the best they can. I think you have an agenda, and you dont really need me to write you a thesis on parenting - once the little darlings don't make life misery for everyone around them, I really couldn't care less whether a human is "ideal" or not. :)

    And perhaps you can point out where I suggested that a four year old boy must be perfectly behaved at all times? wouldn't want to resort to hysterical false accusations now would we? :)


  • #33
    diveout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭diveout


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    I think you need to relax. I simply pointed out that using "circumstances" to absolve oneself of parental repsonibility is a cop out, when there are those who are parenting under worse circumstances and doing the best they can. I think you have an agenda, and you dont really need me to write you a thesis on parenting - once the little darlings don't make life misery for everyone around them, I really couldn't care less whether a human is "ideal" or not. :)

    And perhaps you can point out where I suggested that a four year old boy must be perfectly behaved at all times? wouldn't want to resort to hysterical false accusations now would we? :)

    This thread is not actually about circumstances and I did not bring up environment. It's about using neurological diagnosis to effectively avoid examining how one's parenting is affecting behavior.

    My initial point was that getting an evaluation is acting responsibly because what happens is once the evaluation is made, a parent in effect has to do MORE, not less to accommodate and work with the condition.

    There is no agenda here other than pointing out that in the vast majority of the time people don't know the whole picture and are too quick to judge.

    I've heard the same argument in the OP about parents of schizophrenics, that the diagnosis is used to exempt themselves from the lifelong double bind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind they have put their kids in. I suppose it is possible, but ultimately we don't know.


  • #34
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    diveout wrote: »
    This thread is not actually about circumstances and I did not bring up environment. It's about using neurological diagnosis to effectively avoid examining how one's parenting is affecting behavior.

    My initial point was that getting an evaluation is acting responsibly because what happens is once the evaluation is made, a parent in effect has to do MORE, not less to accommodate and work with the condition.

    There is no agenda here other than pointing out that in the vast majority of the time people don't know the whole picture and are too quick to judge.

    I've heard the same argument in the OP about parents of schizophrenics, that the diagnosis is used to exempt themselves from the lifelong double bind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind they have put their kids in. I suppose it is possible, but ultimately we don't know.

    How do you know that action follows evaluation? How do you know the diagnosis is even right? When I was growing up my best friend was put on a crazy áss diet that excluded pretty much everything except rice cakes and fruit because she was "hyperactive" as a result of "allergies" - she was just bold but her parents coldn't accept that, and chose to starve her instead She grew up looking like a concentration camp victim because they couldn't bear the thought that their little angel might just be hard to handle.


  • #35
    diveout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭diveout


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    How do you know that action follows evaluation? How do you know the diagnosis is even right? When I was growing up my best friend was put on a crazy áss diet that excluded pretty much everything except rice cakes and fruit because she was "hyperactive" as a result of "allergies" - she was just bold but her parents coldn't accept that, and chose to starve her instead She grew up looking like a concentration camp victim because they couldn't bear the thought that their little angel might just be hard to handle.

    Well those are all very valid questions.

    But how do you know someone is "just bold?' What does that mean exactly?


  • #36
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    diveout wrote: »
    Well those are all very valid questions.

    But how do you know someone is "just bold?' What does that mean exactly?


    We can keep firing the "how do you know" questions at each other but it doesn't get us anywhere. My "how do you know he's not just bold?" is just as valid as your "how do you know he doesn't have some underlying condition etc causing his behvaior?". Does seem funny that we've had an explosion of such diagnoses in the recent past though. It's almost as if the possibility that the kid is just spoilt and used to getting his own way is a "last resort" explanation.


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  • #37
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,381 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    We can keep firing the "how do you know" questions at each other but it doesn't get us anywhere. My "how do you know he's not just bold?" is just as valid as your "how do you know he doesn't have some underlying condition etc causing his behvaior?". Does seem funny that we've had an explosion of such diagnoses in the recent past though. It's almost as if the possibility that the kid is just spoilt and used to getting his own way is a "last resort" explanation.

    We've had an explosion of knowledge and science in the past few decades as well though and indeed a tonne more physical and genetic conditions are far better diagnosed and treated now than they were decades ago.........

    (I dont suggest that these conditions might be diagnosed a little too easily at times mind you)


  • #38
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    kippy wrote: »
    We've had an explosion of knowledge and science in the past few decades as well though and indeed a tonne more physical and genetic conditions are far better diagnosed and treated now than they were decades ago.........

    (I dont suggest that these conditions might be diagnosed a little too easily at times mind you)


    We've also had a massive shift away from the traditional disciplinarian approach to parenting towards a "now now darling you know how that makes mommy feel" style.


  • #39
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,381 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    We've also had a massive shift away from the traditional disciplinarian approach to parenting towards a "now now darling you know how that makes mommy feel" style.
    Indeed. I don't disagree with that.


  • #40
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    kippy wrote: »
    Indeed. I don't disagree with that.

    Not suggesting that the disciplinarian approach is one that should be aspired to. Like a lot of things we seem to swing in roundabouts. Our parents had it tough with corporal punishment and the "children should be seen and not heard" attitude, but sometimes I think we've also gone too far the other way, with children being let away with too much. Running riot and being put on the "bold step" for 30 seconds?! An increasing amount of stories in the news about children maiming defenceless animals - every Hallowe'en brings its own sad headlines about puppies thrown on bonfires and cats with bangers tied to their tales. I know more than one person with a cat that was rescued as a kitten being kicked around by youths as a football :( Of course not all kids are like that, but this is something that has increased dramatically in the last few years and one wonders why. Our parents had it tough at school with teachers reigning terror on them, but now a teacher cannot correct a child without indignant parents descending on them accusing them of picking on their child. I guess us 80's kids had it good in the middle?! :)


  • #41
    diveout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭diveout


    kippy wrote: »
    We've had an explosion of knowledge and science in the past few decades as well though and indeed a tonne more physical and genetic conditions are far better diagnosed and treated now than they were decades ago.........

    (I dont suggest that these conditions might be diagnosed a little too easily at times mind you)

    We do, but we also have two year olds being diagnosed with bi-polar.

    And also this:
    http://www.salon.com/2013/09/21/thats_not_autism_its_simply_a_brainy_introverted_boy/


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  • #42
    diveout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭diveout


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    We can keep firing the "how do you know" questions at each other but it doesn't get us anywhere. My "how do you know he's not just bold?" is just as valid as your "how do you know he doesn't have some underlying condition etc causing his behvaior?". Does seem funny that we've had an explosion of such diagnoses in the recent past though. It's almost as if the possibility that the kid is just spoilt and used to getting his own way is a "last resort" explanation.

    My point is we don't know.

    If you want to go back to the past, a lot more is now expected of kids. Kids are now expected at age 5 to do what my generation wasn't expected to do until 7. So of course more will fail to meet the criteria, more will fail to pay attention, more will feel bad, feel frustrated, and inevitably more will act out.

    Particularly with boys, who are reared from very young to suck it up and are not taught how to express negative feeling, so they shut up, don't know how to approach the grownups, or talk about how they feel, and then they act out. No surprise more boys are getting the ahdh diagnosis to be honest.

    As to your example of the kittens and the animals, I wouldn't know what to say about anti social behaior en masse. For all we know these are kids getting the crap beaten out of them at home, maybe see their parents being violent, are reared with zero empathy and are taking their anger out on each other. Something tells me these kids aren't exactly spoilt though?


  • #43
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    diveout wrote: »
    My point is we don't know.

    If you want to go back to the past, a lot more is now expected of kids. Kids are now expected at age 5 to do what my generation wasn't expected to do until 7. So of course more will fail to meet the criteria, more will fail to pay attention, more will feel bad, feel frustrated, and inevitably more will act out.

    Particularly with boys, who are reared from very young to suck it up and are not taught how to express negative feeling, so they shut up, don't know how to approach the grownups, or talk about how they feel, and then they act out. No surprise more boys are getting the ahdh diagnosis to be honest.

    As to your example of the kittens and the animals, I wouldn't know what to say about anti social behaior en masse. For all we know these are kids getting the crap beaten out of them at home, maybe see their parents being violent, are reared with zero empathy and are taking their anger out on each other. Something tells me these kids aren't exactly spoilt though?

    Again with the justifications though. That's part of the problem. Lack of responsibility and accountability for one's actions (be it the child or the parent). My Gran grew up having her head banged off the sitting room wall by my great grandmother - afaik she didn't run out onto the street and maim defenceless animals. My father grew up in tenements - he was anything but spoiled, but he had a menagerie of misfit animals that he rescued - crows etc. People can tick all of these excuse boxes and come out alright on the other side. Absolution saves no one.


  • #44
    diveout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭diveout


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Again with the justifications though. That's part of the problem. Lack of responsibility and accountability for one's actions (be it the child or the parent). My Gran grew up having her head banged off the sitting room wall by my great grandmother - afaik she didn't run out onto the street and maim defenceless animals. My father grew up in tenements - he was anything but spoiled, but he had a menagerie of misfit animals that he rescued - crows etc. People can tick all of these excuse boxes and come out alright on the other side. Absolution saves no one.

    Ok ok...

    Look the title of this thread is about responsibility, not blame...and there is a difference. Responsibility is about assessment without moralising. Blame assumes moral superiority on the part of the person doing the blaming and usually gets people nowhere.

    Do you have a solution to this anti social behavior?


  • #45
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    parents reap what they sow.
    it's all well and good letting junior decide how things go when he's 2/3/4, but without boundaries junior will probably turn out to be an obnoxious ahole by 15. you know the ones who know the answer to everything, even though they don't, the ones who think they're opinion is valuable to everyone etc.
    spare me from them and their 'enlightened' parents.


  • #46
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    diveout wrote: »
    Ok ok...

    Look the title of this thread is about responsibility, not blame...and there is a difference. Responsibility is about assessment without moralising. Blame assumes moral superiority on the part of the person doing the blaming and usually gets people nowhere.

    Do you have a solution to this anti social behavior?
    Where did I mention blame? I referred to a need for people to take responsibility for their actions, or to make their kids take responsibility for their actions... I am not assuming moral superiority, I just dont particularly like seeing headlines about foals being beaten to death or dogs being set on fire. As for asking me to come up with some kinds of final solution - it's not actually my responsibility to parent other people's kids, so once again is that not absolving them of responsibility and expecting someone else to do it?

    With specific reference to animal cruelty cases, I would imagine that a system making the parents vicariously liable for the child's actions might act as some for of incentive for more effective parenting. Also possibly requiring the child to take part in some kind of animal welfare education program ie; try to ensure they dont re-offend. Oh and also have them evaluated as children that young doing things like that may very well grow up to be sociopaths...:(

    Though, if it were my animal my solution would be very different ;) I pity the idiot who tries to harm her!


  • #47
    diveout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭diveout


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Where did I mention blame? I referred to a need for people to take responsibility for their actions, or to make their kids take responsibility for their actions... I am not assuming moral superiority, I just dont particularly like seeing headlines about foals being beaten to death or dogs being set on fire. As for asking me to come up with some kinds of final solution - it's not actually my responsibility to parent other people's kids, so once again is that not absolving them of responsibility and expecting someone else to do it?

    With specific reference to animal cruelty cases, I would imagine that a system making the parents vicariously liable for the child's actions might act as some for of incentive for more effective parenting. Also possibly requiring the child to take part in some kind of animal welfare education program ie; try to ensure they dont re-offend. Oh and also have them evaluated as children that young doing things like that may very well grow up to be sociopaths...:(

    Though, if it were my animal my solution would be very different ;) I pity the idiot who tries to harm her!

    Setting animals on fire is quite a different scenario to the hyperactive child described in the OP. Honestly I have no idea how a parent deals with such anti social behavior if they are scared of their own kids. I would be if I saw something like that.

    But what this argument looks to me like the old mad or bad argument.


  • #48
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    diveout wrote: »
    Setting animals on fire is quite a different scenario to the hyperactive child described in the OP. Honestly I have no idea how a parent deals with such anti social behavior if they are scared of their own kids. I would be if I saw something like that.

    But what this argument looks to me like the old mad or bad argument.


    I'm aware of the difference, but you can't deny that these things are happening day in day out and are a symptom of the bigger problem. I'm not suggesting that a child acting out in a cafe will go out the next day and set a cat alight, but these problems begin somewhere and are allowed to develop into what they are.

    I dont know what you mean by "mad or bad" point, sorry. If its wrt my sociopath comment, that wasn;t being smart - its known that cruelty to animals is something that presents in children who later are diagnosed.


  • #49
    diveout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭diveout


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    I'm aware of the difference, but you can't deny that these things are happening day in day out and are a symptom of the bigger problem. I'm not suggesting that a child acting out in a cafe will go out the next day and set a cat alight, but these problems begin somewhere and are allowed to develop into what they are.

    I dont know what you mean by "mad or bad" point, sorry. If its wrt my sociopath comment, that wasn;t being smart - its known that cruelty to animals is something that presents in children who later are diagnosed.

    Mad vs Bad is the debate whether it's mental illness or disorder or the person is just bad.


  • #50
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    diveout wrote: »
    Mad vs Bad is the debate whether it's mental illness or disorder or the person is just bad.


    I dont know if I believe that anyone is just "bad". Then again, I havent looked at statistics and studies in depth enough to have conviction in that. Anyway, I dont want to pull the thread off topic any more. Was good chatting to you! :)


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