Dublin Bus driver, "I'll run you over".

Eamonnator · 04-06-2014 12:24PM

keith16 wrote: »

Good point actually. I wonder what speed he was traveling at, isn't that a 30k/h zone?

Speed limits do not apply to cyclists.

TonyStark · 04-06-2014 12:25PM

Zyzz wrote: »

"You wanna go, Ill run you over"

That doesn't sound very accidental..

I read that, but when I listened to it he seemed to say. "If you wanna go then go , you wanna die I'll run you over.

04-06-2014 12:26PM

I've just watched more of videos there, this man is lucky he hasn't crossed the wrong person on his travels, he will come across somebody someday who will deck him for the way he goes on (I'm not condoning this)!!

Seems like he makes a mountain out of a mole hill in some of his videos!!

Zyzz · 04-06-2014 12:28PM

TonyStark wrote: »

I think the bus driver when he said "Cycle the way your cycling and I'll run you over... ". To my mind he shouldn't have undertaken the bus the way he did he should have held back a little when it was passed him. Interesting he highlights the obstacles on the path as potential hazards but yet being on the blindside of a bus. He should have allowed that the bus might need to enter into the cycle lane as they were passing through junctions in the road... usually there is a slight pinch point at those points in the road. At the point when they clear the junction he nearly runs into the back of a slower moving cyclist to ride out in front of the bus.

After the first time he spoke to the bus driver he says on camera about the bus pulling out in his path, if you look at the road it's the only place for the bus to go without mounting the path. I'm sure if the footage on the bus was to be taken into account it would probably show something more balanced. But defo feels like quite a spun video of a cyclist looking to be in the right. From looking at it and actually listening to the exchange rather than the "subtitles" I don't see any malice on the bus drivers part in this instance. I see a cyclist putting himself into danger and blaming everyone except himself.

TonyStark wrote: »

I read that, but when I listened to it he seemed to say. "If you wanna go then go , you wanna die I'll run you over.

"You wanna go, I'll run you over no problem"

How you or anyone could possibly stick up for the driver, driving a several tonne bus is beyond me :roll eyes:

Nwm2 · 04-06-2014 12:31PM

I watched this a few times, as a city-cyclist, road racer, and motorist.

Facts as I see them - these should be indisputable:

1. Cyclist was undertaking the bus, while cycling in the cycle lane
2. The bus pulled into the cycle lane AFTER the cyclist began to undertake the bus
3. Bus did not indicate before cyclist undertook.
4. There was another cyclist immediately in front on the cycle lane, and the first cyclist was going to reach him about the same time as he passed the bus, and therefore would need to slow down or move onto the main roadway

Questions/answers:

1. Is what the cyclist did illegal? That is, undertaking on a cycle lane? I do not know the answer to be honest
2. Is what the bus driver did illegal? I presume so, as the cyclist was beside the bus when he began his maneuver and thus would have hit the cyclist if the bus completed his maneuver.
3. Is what the cyclist did 'wrong' in some way? Generally it is argued that you do not undertake a long vehicle, and I would not do this myself typically. HOWEVER, given that it was a cycle lane then it's not quite so clear in my own mind. I would say that my initial feeling was that if I was to attempt what he did I'd be feeling pretty nervous and given that another cyclist was immediately ahead, I would not have attempted what this cyclist did.
4. Did the driver threaten to run the cyclist over or was it more of 'I could have run you over'? Not clear to me.

Summary:

Bus driver did something illegal IMO. Cyclist could/should have taken a safe option IMO.

goat2 · 04-06-2014 12:37PM

i have been looking at clips, cannot beleive that all of them are dangerous, there was one where he said the motor came within inches of him, yet the motor had gone over the center line to avoid him, i am wondering how far out from kerb he was cycling, is he cycling closer to center lines than left side of road, just asking, i think he may be

clod71 · 04-06-2014 12:39PM

Boom_Bap wrote: »

D*cks everywhere.

I'll second that...

morana · 04-06-2014 12:49PM

Its a wonder the anti cyclist brigade haven't had a go at him for not wearing a high vis!!

Johnny Be Goode · 04-06-2014 12:57PM

Seeing the cyclist's other vids on You Tube puts this one in perspective, he seems to be menace to everyone ...

Wishbone Ash · 04-06-2014 12:57PM

Eamonnator wrote: »

Speed limits do not apply to cyclists.

The original point referred to the speed of the bus.

ragazzo · 04-06-2014 01:06PM

morana wrote: »

Its a wonder the anti cyclist brigade haven't had a go at him for not wearing a high vis!!

On this occasion it seems that the cyclist is looking for trouble. Sometimes a bit of cop on/commonsense is all that is needed.
No need to defend everyone just because they throw a leg over a bike now and again. That does not mean they are right.
This is a cycling thread so is pro cyclist but posters can also discuss the situation from different points of view without necessarily falling over themselves to pay homage to a rogue cyclist.

Someday he might make the George Hook half hour. They would be a nice couple!

Doctor Bob · 04-06-2014 01:10PM

joeysoap wrote: »

at the start of the video a cyclist overtakes the bus on the drivers side, maybe the driver had to pull over to allow this cyclist room

This has been trotted out now a few times in this thread as a possible explanation for why the driver crossed a solid white line, but it misses/ignores a key point- it's the job of the overtaking vehicle to overtake safely, and not the responsibility of the vehicle being overtaken to facilitate the overtaker (this applies equally to the outside cyclist overtaking the bus and to the bus overtaking the inside cyclist). The driver 'had to' do nothing except stay outside the white line and not endanger other road users; in the case of the latter obligation, pulling into a mandatory cycle lane isn’t the only option when ‘avoiding’ the cyclist on his outside.

TonyStark wrote: »

if you look at the road it's the only place for the bus to go without mounting the path.

But he’s not permitted to go there, for two reasons- mainly as it’s bounded by a solid white line, but also due to the presence of another road user already in the space he’s entering (i.e. even if it were an advisory cycle lane, I’d argue that his manoeuvre was dangerous and probably illegal).

I have a certain sympathy with the driver as it can't be easy driving a bus when surrounded by a lot of unpredictable - not to say downright crazy - behaviour, as is often the case with busy commuter routes across the city, but he has a professional responsibility to drive within the law, and not to take chances, lose his temper, act the maggot, etc.

CatFromHue · 04-06-2014 01:17PM

Just wondering do other cyclists undertake a moving bus or truck like that?

To the best of my memory I don't but equally I can't think of many places where i'd have the opportunity either. If a bus or truck is stopped then I would yeah, as long as I can get ahead of them before they start moving again.

CramCycle · 04-06-2014 01:21PM

Nwm2 wrote: »

1. Is what the cyclist did illegal? That is, undertaking on a cycle lane? I do not know the answer to be honest

Completely legal

2. Is what the bus driver did illegal? I presume so, as the cyclist was beside the bus when he began his maneuver and thus would have hit the cyclist if the bus completed his maneuver.

Yes, while it would up to the courts as I am not sure if you can define the offence, its clearly poor observation and therefore either driving without due care and attention or dangerous driving.

3. Is what the cyclist did 'wrong' in some way? Generally it is argued that you do not undertake a long vehicle, and I would not do this myself typically. HOWEVER, given that it was a cycle lane then it's not quite so clear in my own mind. I would say that my initial feeling was that if I was to attempt what he did I'd be feeling pretty nervous and given that another cyclist was immediately ahead, I would not have attempted what this cyclist did.

Certainly not wrong in the same way (legally, AFAIK), wrong in that he was endangering himself. You could argue that once he was ahead of the bus and barely he was breaking the law by swerving out without indicating and in a tight space, could be construed as "reckless cycling" (can't remember if that is the legal phrase). IMO though he broke no laws and his reaction, as bad as it looks in hindsight is not much different to my own so I'll let those without sin cast the first stone.

4. Did the driver threaten to run the cyclist over or was it more of 'I could have run you over'? Not clear to me.

I am only going on what people tell me what he said as I have no sound on the video where I am but his general attitude does not look antagonistic, that said i have had a bus driver admit to attempting to hit me to "show me" how dangerous my road position was and he looked as calm as this guy so until I hear it I could not be sure. Everyone so far though seems to have heard something different.

04-06-2014 01:23PM

iv sympathy with the driver here,

theres a cycle lane to his left which hes not aloud in but has to watch for bus stops id imagine?

but theres also cyclists to his right and in front while driving a 16t vehicle cant be easy....aswell as that guys behaviour.

Tombo2001 · 04-06-2014 01:24PM

Nwm2 wrote: »

I watched this a few times, as a city-cyclist, road racer, and motorist.

Facts as I see them - these should be indisputable:

1. Cyclist was undertaking the bus, while cycling in the cycle lane
2. The bus pulled into the cycle lane AFTER the cyclist began to undertake the bus
3. Bus did not indicate before cyclist undertook.
4. There was another cyclist immediately in front on the cycle lane, and the first cyclist was going to reach him about the same time as he passed the bus, and therefore would need to slow down or move onto the main roadway

Questions/answers:

1. Is what the cyclist did illegal? That is, undertaking on a cycle lane? I do not know the answer to be honest
2. Is what the bus driver did illegal? I presume so, as the cyclist was beside the bus when he began his maneuver and thus would have hit the cyclist if the bus completed his maneuver.
3. Is what the cyclist did 'wrong' in some way? Generally it is argued that you do not undertake a long vehicle, and I would not do this myself typically. HOWEVER, given that it was a cycle lane then it's not quite so clear in my own mind. I would say that my initial feeling was that if I was to attempt what he did I'd be feeling pretty nervous and given that another cyclist was immediately ahead, I would not have attempted what this cyclist did.
4. Did the driver threaten to run the cyclist over or was it more of 'I could have run you over'? Not clear to me.

Summary:

Bus driver did something illegal IMO. Cyclist could/should have taken a safe option IMO.

No no no.....

You've got it all wrong. The facts really are irrelevant to most people here.

circular flexing · 04-06-2014 01:29PM

I cycle that stretch every morning and no way would I undertake at that point. I know full well there's a bus stop not too far after that point and buses are liable to start moving towards the left hand side. Usually I just hang back and then I get around them at the bus stop (though it's not clear from the video if the bus did actually stop there)

I'm not saying it's right and it would be great if the cycle lane there was better protected, but at the end of the day I prefer being alive and healthy to being dead or seriously injured.

04-06-2014 01:39PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

Just wondering do other cyclists undertake a moving bus or truck like that?

To the best of my memory I don't but equally I can't think of many places where i'd have the opportunity either. If a bus or truck is stopped then I would yeah, as long as I can get ahead of them before they start moving again.

In that situation - definitely not.

It's OK to undertake slow moving traffic when clear and you are confident that at the relevant speeds (you and them) nothing serious is going to happen.

Same with stationary traffic, but proceeding on the basis that some clown is about to open a door and get out.

In faster moving traffic it isn't normally an issue for me... but if there's room and it is clear then fine. I don't see any of that in this video.

In general I would be careful about going up the inside of any long vehicle in any circumstance. Before committing to the manoeuvre you'd want to be confident you can complete it before a left-turn, a bus stop, whatever.

It's an unfortunate fact of life that most cyclist deaths in urban environments are caused by left-turning large vehicles - regardless of whose fault it is I don't want to be one of them.

Last on the bus driver he's guilty as well - I am sick of drivers (and in this case the cyclist) who seem to think that there is 'nothing they can do' and ignoring the obvious: they can slow down and/or stop. If he's squeezed for road - slow down. Not complicated.

Oldlegs · 04-06-2014 01:43PM

aaronc182 wrote: »

iv sympathy with the driver here,

theres a cycle lane to his left which hes not aloud in but has to watch for bus stops id imagine?

but theres also cyclists to his right and in front while driving a 16t vehicle cant be easy....aswell as that guys behaviour.

Have to agree.

In listening to the audio - it didn't sound that the bus driver was being aggressive - even the 2nd time. It sounded much more like resignation that he was dealing with another road user who was not prepared to a) work with the other road users and the challenges of the traffic around them all, or b) have a bit more consideration for his own safety. For me, the driver's tone and demeanour were based on - if you are going to insist on going up along the inside of a bus in the middle of flowing traffic then you are going to end up underneath a bus one of these days.

http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/learn-5-recent-incidents/
".... All five incidents have involved large vehicles that have blind spots. When pedalling around London, warning signals should be going off the minute you see a heavy goods vehicle. "

As cyclists, it is too easy to be 100% right - but 100% dead.

Boom_Bap · 04-06-2014 02:09PM

CramCycle wrote: »

Completely legal
Yes, while it would up to the courts as I am not sure if you can define the offence, its clearly poor observation and therefore either driving without due care and attention or dangerous driving.

He crossed a solid white line into a cycle lane, tis illegal. Cars/buses/trucks etc. cant cross inot a cycle lane that has a solid white, only dotted white when safe to do so.

Alf Veedersane · 04-06-2014 02:16PM

Oldlegs wrote: »

As cyclists, it is too easy to be 100% right - but 100% dead.

The Cyclist's Commandment.

Yeah, it's annoying when cars/trucks/buses pull across in front of you but principles aren't all that protective in collisions.

Tombo2001 · 04-06-2014 02:18PM

This discussion very much reminds me of the high court judge who says that girls in short skirts are asking for trouble.

Bus driver brakes law, cyclist gets blame. People 'feel sorry' for the bus driver.

wrt40 · 04-06-2014 02:21PM

Very strange how the driver veered over like that. I suspect he recognised the cyclist and was teaching him a lesson (he's very gently veering over as if he was giving the cyclist a scare while also trying to be careful not to actual hit him). Maybe something happened earlier that the cyclist has conveniently edited out or maybe he's been at the brunt of the cyclists bad attitude before.

Darkglasses · 04-06-2014 02:23PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

This discussion very much reminds me of the high court judge who says that girls in short skirts are asking for trouble.

Bus driver brakes law, cyclist gets blame. People 'feel sorry' for the bus driver.

I understand where you're coming from but I don't think it's that simple. For one, I don't think the bus driver did anything here out of malice. It was a bad bit of driving but he was in a difficult spot, surrounded by cyclists in a very narrow lane. The cyclist rode very poorly - up the inside of a bus is a stupid place to go. A lot less innocent and a lot more risky than a girl in a short skirt. Then, rather than just cycle away, he went for a rant at the bus driver and then put it on youtube to show off his crusade for justice, when in fact he cycled pretty much just as badly as the bus driver drove.

Just my 2 cents.

CramCycle · 04-06-2014 02:26PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Bus driver brakes law, cyclist gets blame. People 'feel sorry' for the bus driver.

I don't feel sorry for him, regardless of what the appropriate response by the cyclists should be, there is no excuse for poor observation, be it in a car or a 15 ton bus. I have consistently said the driver should be warned, fined and re trained.

The cyclist isn't getting the blame either, people just tend to be commenting that his maneuver was ill thought out at best. If what wrt40 is saying is correct, the driver should have his license removed.

DaithiMC · 04-06-2014 02:40PM

wrt40 wrote: »

Very strange how the driver veered over like that. I suspect he recognised the cyclist and was teaching him a lesson (he's very gently veering over as if he was giving the cyclist a scare while also trying to be careful not to actual hit him). Maybe something happened earlier that the cyclist has conveniently edited out or maybe he's been at the brunt of the cyclists bad attitude before.

That's a wild speculation given that the vantage point in the video gives no indication whatsoever in relation to what the bus driver was seeing in front or to the right of him. It would be equally valid to suggest that a car in front of him moved in and he was forced to react and in that split second could not consider other elements such as someone trying to undertake him.

There are too many perspectives left out in this unidimensional view of what happened and many posters are speculating with little or no evidence of what happened before, what was happening on the other sides of the bus, or what was happening in the bus, or the cyclist's head. Without having to consider any of this it still remains that the safety message from this video for me is DON'T UNDERTAKE.

Tenzor07 · 04-06-2014 02:47PM

DaithiMC wrote: »

There are too many perspectives left out in this unidimensional view of what happened and many posters are speculating with little or no evidence of what happened before, what was happening on the other sides of the bus, or what was happening in the bus, or the cyclist's head. Without having to consider any of this it still remains that the safety message from this video for me is DON'T UNDERTAKE.

From what I can see on the video there was a cyclist who appears to be racing the bus on the drivers side along the solid white bus-lane line, it was perhaps the action of the overtaking cyclist which cause the bus driver to move in to the left, but from what i can see our protagonist had time to use his brakes and stay towards the back of the bus in safety, but decided "Hey scr*w you bus driver, I'm in a mandatory cycle lane...

Dr Crippen · 04-06-2014 02:51PM

Boom_Bap wrote: »

He crossed a solid white line into a cycle lane, tis illegal. Cars/buses/trucks etc. cant cross inot a cycle lane that has a solid white, only dotted white when safe to do so.

I think there is a bus stop just at the end of that lane so admittedly in error he was beginning to cross that line to pull in for that stop. When you cycle in the city you have to allow for bus, trucks and even car blind spots and pretty much to predict what traffic is doing.

IMO both guys are in error, you could see the bus moving in and you should slow up and then speak to the driver about it or send the footage to Dublin bus and the guards. Not pull into the middle of the road and begin a confrontation with the driver

DaithiMC · 04-06-2014 02:53PM

Tenzor07 wrote: »

From what I can see on the video there was a cyclist who appears to be racing the bus on the drivers side along the solid white bus-lane line, it was perhaps the action of the overtaking cyclist which cause the bus driver to move in to the left, but from what i can see our protagonist had time to use his brakes and stay towards the back of the bus in safety, but decided "Hey scr*w you bus driver, I'm in a mandatory cycle lane...

Indeed, but you use the word "perhaps" which recognises you know you are speculating, and it is a valid point of view, but not one, like any of the others we have on this thread so far, that we can confirm. My only point, consistently, is that by backing off and not undertaking, this cyclist could have averted the whole situation and the worrying part for me for anyone who firmly takes the cyclist's side in this is that they might feel it is ok to undertake like this when it is arguably within the top five stupid things one can do when cycling in traffic.

Boom_Bap · 04-06-2014 02:59PM

Dr Crippen wrote: »

I think there is a bus stop just at the end of that lane so admittedly in error he was beginning to cross that line to pull in for that stop. When you cycle in the city you have to allow for bus, trucks and even car blind spots and pretty much to predict what traffic is doing.

IMO both guys are in error, you could see the bus moving in and you should slow up and then speak to the driver about it or send the footage to Dublin bus and the guards. Not pull into the middle of the road and begin a confrontation with the driver

I posted earlier in the thread how both were acting like d*cks.

But a solid white line is a solid white line until it isn't. It's only at this point where the bus can cross over if the lane is clear.

Dublin Bus driver, "I'll run you over".

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