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Comments

  • #2
    ectoraige
    Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭ectoraige


    And in between the two dates, GSOC discover their offices appear to be bugged, become paranoid, and ask for safeguards from Guerin before releasing documents, safeguards that Guerin himself found not to be unreasonable, but didn't have time to follow up. If they had been critical, then he could have delayed the report, but since he'd already seen enough to call for a full inquiry didn't need to.

    In the scale of problems, GSOC being paranoid isn't really up there, is it?


  • #3
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    May 2013
    GSOC complain of not receiving Garda files in timely manner

    http://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-delayed-giving-evidence-in-informant-collusion-probe-902574-May2013/

    May 2014
    Sean Guerin speaks of concerns that he had not received documentation from GSOC (Garda Siochana Ombudsman Commission) and there had been “difficulties” in that regard.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/guerin-report-published-1455791-May2014/


    Seems when the shoe is on the other foot, GSOC cannot uphold their own standards.

    Seems to the public that a lot of Guards are obstructing investigations.

    Hopefully that has not spread to the GSOC.


  • #4
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Chiparus wrote: »
    Seems to the public that a lot of Guards are obstructing investigations.

    Hopefully that has not spread to the GSOC.

    The public thinks a lot of things that aren't true.


  • #5
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    The public thinks a lot of things that aren't true.

    Perhaps but thats what people think, that a large part of the Garda force do not respect or cooperate with an official state body.

    Your OP would reflect the contempt that many guards seem to hold for the Ombudsman.


  • #6
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    ectoraige wrote: »
    And in between the two dates, GSOC discover their offices appear to be bugged, become paranoid, and ask for safeguards from Guerin before releasing documents, safeguards that Guerin himself found not to be unreasonable, but didn't have time to follow up. If they had been critical, then he could have delayed the report, but since he'd already seen enough to call for a full inquiry didn't need to.

    In the scale of problems, GSOC being paranoid isn't really up there, is it?

    I think you'll find that their thinking they were bugged post-dated the paranoia.


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  • #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Chiparus wrote: »
    Perhaps but thats what people think, that a large part of the Garda force do not respect or cooperate with an official state body.

    Your OP would reflect the contempt that many guards seem to hold for the Ombudsman.

    Respect is earned. And when you hear the stories from members who have been investigated by them there is no reason to respect them. They treat members as guilty until proven innocent rather than the other way around.

    I'm all for an independent and impartial oversight body and members who are in the wrong should be brought to book.


  • #8
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    foreign wrote: »
    Respect is earned. And when you hear the stories from members who have been investigated by them there is no reason to respect them. They treat members as guilty until proven innocent rather than the other way around.
    I'm all for an independent and impartial oversight body and members who are in the wrong should be brought to book.

    A government body has to earn a guards respect before you will cooperate with it?

    That reflects an arrogance that seems pervasive throughout the force.


  • #9
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Chiparus wrote: »
    A government body has to earn a guards respect before you will cooperate with it?

    That reflects an arrogance that seems pervasive throughout the force.

    No, it has the institute has to be respected for members to go out of their way to help. GSOC expects members to response straight away to whatever they send. For most Gardaí this request will go to the bottom of their to do list after court files and prosecution files.


  • #10
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    No, it has the institute has to be respected for members to go out of their way to help. GSOC expects members to response straight away to whatever they send. For most Gardaí this request will go to the bottom of their to do list after court files and prosecution files.

    Grand so, next time a guard asks me to do something I can refuse/delay as they don't have my respect anymore.


  • #11
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Chiparus wrote: »
    Grand so, next time a guard asks me to do something I can refuse/delay as they don't have my respect anymore.

    You can if you want. Of course if its a lawful demand and you refuse you will likely be arrested


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  • #12
    ectoraige
    Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭ectoraige


    Dermot Illogical wrote: »
    I think you'll find that their thinking they were bugged post-dated the paranoia.

    True, in fact it's probably more accurate to say they were paranoid right up to the point they discovered they were being bugged, then they were just compis mentis.


  • #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Chiparus wrote: »
    A government body has to earn a guards respect before you will cooperate with it?

    That reflects an arrogance that seems pervasive throughout the force.

    They are being cooperated with. Respect is totally different. You don't earn respect with threats.


  • #14
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    ectoraige wrote: »
    True, in fact it's probably more accurate to say they were paranoid right up to the point they discovered they were being bugged, then they were just compis mentis.

    They didn't "discover" they were being bugged. As far as politics goes they may as well have been, but the technical details released so far only reveal incompetence.


  • #15
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    ectoraige wrote: »
    True, in fact it's probably more accurate to say they were paranoid right up to the point they discovered they were being bugged, then they were just compis mentis.

    If they were that concerned about bugging they wouldn't have spent months doing nothing about it. And let's not forget the whole thing came to light because of a leak. Surely that's the more likely source of any breach?


  • #16
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    foreign wrote: »
    They are being cooperated with. Respect is totally different. You don't earn respect with threats.

    No they were not cooperated with, the gardai feel they don't have to cooperate with an agency of the state.

    https://www.newstalk.ie/Report-says-gardai-are-not-cooperating-with-Ombudsman


  • #17
    bravestar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    Chiparus wrote: »
    No they were not cooperated with, the gardai feel they don't have to cooperate with an agency of the state.

    https://www.newstalk.ie/Report-says-gardai-are-not-cooperating-with-Ombudsman

    Ah yes because a report is more valid than the word of actual people...please.

    30 day limits... Of course members of AGS aren't busy enough doing actual police work!

    You just keep on believing everything the media feeds you.


  • #18
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    I was only responding to the poster who said the Ombudsman was being cooperated with and to a previous poster who felt that they had to earn respect first.


    Can you imagine what a judge would say to someone who used that excuse for failing to produce their tax and insurance within 10 days?:):D


  • #19
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Chiparus wrote: »
    I was only responding to the poster who said the Ombudsman was being cooperated with and to a previous poster who felt that they had to earn respect first.

    Actually it was you who said that. Nobody else has.
    Chiparus wrote: »
    A government body has to earn a guards respect before you will cooperate with it?

    Chiparus wrote: »
    Can you imagine what a judge would say to someone who used that excuse for failing to produce their tax and insurance within 10 days?:):D

    That charge is generally struck out as long as the documents are actually in order.


  • #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Chiparus wrote: »
    No they were not cooperated with, the gardai feel they don't have to cooperate with an agency of the state.

    https://www.newstalk.ie/Report-says-gardai-are-not-cooperating-with-Ombudsman

    That would appear to be a management level issue. Members are attending GSOC interviews and complying with investigations. We can't make out superiors do their job faster.

    Why would a member try to drag out an investigation and have that worry and anxiety hanging over you?


  • #21
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    They are being cooperated with. Respect is totally different. You don't earn respect with threats.
    According to little Cuchulainn ; I wrote the above.


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  • #22
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Chiparus wrote: »
    According to little Cuchulainn ; I wrote the above.

    Possibly mixed up reading it in a quote?


  • #23
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Chiparus wrote: »
    According to little Cuchulainn ; I wrote the above.

    There you go just making stuff up. I never attributed that to you. I specifically quoted the two posts I was referring to and neither of them were the post from foreign.

    You said that a poster told you that GSOC must be respected before they are cooperated with. "a previous poster who felt that they had to earn respect first"

    Nobody said this to you. Foreign said they are cooperated with but aren't respected and I said members don't go out of their way to help them. The only person who has said that respect is a requirement for cooperation is you.

    Please stop trying to validate your own beliefs by attributing false testimony to others or at the very least if you are going to claim someone posted something then quote the actual post.


  • #24
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    There you go just making stuff up. I never attributed that to you. I specifically quoted the two posts I was referring to and neither of them were the post from foreign.

    You said that a poster told you that GSOC must be respected before they are cooperated with. "a previous poster who felt that they had to earn respect first"

    Nobody said this to you. Foreign said they are cooperated with but aren't respected and I said members don't go out of their way to help them. The only person who has said that respect is a requirement for cooperation is you.

    Please stop trying to validate your own beliefs by attributing false testimony to others or at the very least if you are going to claim someone posted something then quote the actual post.

    I think you are confusing posts, my post was in response to Foreigns post that the guards are cooperating with AGS , I , the GSOC and a large number of people believe that they are not cooperating.

    Some guards ( Some would say most) feel this is acceptable behaviour.

    Do you think it is acceptable not to cooperate with the ombudsman?


  • #25
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Chiparus wrote: »
    I think you are confusing posts, my post was in response to Foreigns post that the guards are cooperating with AGS , I , the GSOC and a large number of people believe that they are not cooperating.

    Some guards ( Some would say most) feel this is acceptable behaviour.

    Do you think it is acceptable not to cooperate with the ombudsman?

    I am not confusing your posts. I've quoted them for clarity already. No poster here has said it is acceptable to not cooperate.


  • #26
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    No, it has the institute has to be respected for members to go out of their way to help. GSOC expects members to response straight away to whatever they send. For most Gardaí this request will go to the bottom of their to do list after court files and prosecution files.

    I agree that no one here has said that they should not cooperate, I misinterpreted the attitude form your post.

    Most members of the public do feel that the guards in general do not cooperate with the ombudsman. and that they hold the agency with distain, most of the guards I work with certainly do not have a good word to say about the organisation.


  • #27
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Chiparus wrote: »
    I agree that no one here has said that they should not cooperate, I misinterpreted the attitude form your post.

    Most members of the public do feel that the guards in general do not cooperate with the ombudsman. and that they hold the agency with distain, most of the guards I work with certainly do not have a good word to say about the organisation.

    That's because if the Gardaí operated in the same manner GSOC do, the country would be in uproar. But somehow it's ok because they are investigating Gardaí and not real people.


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