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Fluoride in tap water

1979899100102

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »

    Nice Pro fluoridation propaganda I must say you linked to

    Meanwhile ....

    Nobody disputes fluoride isn't effective

    But used topically
    “it is widely recognized that the mechanism of action of F for caries control occurs essentially through its topical contact with the teeth. In other words, it is not necessary to ingest F to have F protection against caries.”
    SOURCE: Charone S, et al. (2012). Lack of a significant relationship between toenail fluoride concentrations and caries prevalence. Fluoride 45:133-37.
    “Fluoride is most effective when used topically, after the teeth have erupted.”
    SOURCE: Cheng KK, et al. (2007). Adding fluoride to water supplies. British Medical Journal 335(7622):699-702.
    “it is now accepted that systemic fluoride plays a limited role in caries prevention.”
    SOURCE: Pizzo G, Piscopo MR, Pizzo I, Giuliana G. (2007). Community water fluoridation and caries prevention: a critical review. Clinical Oral Investigations 11(3):189-93.
    “the major anticaries benefit of fluoride is topical and not systemic.”
    SOURCE: National Research Council. (2006). Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA’s Standards. National Academies Press, Washington D.C. p 13.
    “Since the current scientific thought is that the cariostatic activity of fluoride is mainly due to its topical effects, the need to provide systemic fluoride supplementation for caries prevention is questionable.”
    SOURCE: European Commission. (2005). The Safety of Fluorine Compounds in Oral Hygiene Products for Children Under the Age of 6 Years. European Commission, Health & Consumer Protection Directorate-General, Scientific Committee on Consumer Products, September 20.
    “The results of more recent epidemiological and laboratory studies can be summarized by stating that posteruptive (topical) application of fluoride plays the dominant role in caries prevention.”
    SOURCE: Hellwig E, Lennon AM. (2004). Systemic versus topical fluoride. Caries Research 38: 258-62.
    “When it was thought that fluoride had to be present during tooth mineralisation to ‘improve’ the biological apatite and the ‘caries resistance’ of the teeth, systemic fluoride administration was necessary for maximum benefit. Caries reduction therefore had to be balanced against increasing dental fluorosis. The ‘caries resistance’ concept was shown to be erroneous 25 years ago, but the new paradigm is not yet fully adopted in public health dentistry, so we still await real breakthroughs in more effective use of fluorides for caries prevention.”
    SOURCE: Fejerskov O. (2004). Changing paradigms in concepts on dental caries: consequences for oral health care. Caries Research 38: 182-91.
    “Current evidence strongly suggests that fluorides work primarily by topical means through direct action on the teeth and dental plaque. Thus ingestion of fluoride is not essential for caries prevention.”
    SOURCE: Warren JJ, Levy SM. (2003). Current and future role of fluoride in nutrition. Dental Clinics of North America 47: 225-43.
    “[T]he majority of benefit from fluoride is now believed to be from its topical, rather than systemic, effects.”
    SOURCE: Brothwell D, Limeback H. (2003). Breastfeeding is protective against dental fluorosis in a nonfluoridated rural area of Ontario, Canada. Journal of Human Lactation 19: 386-90.
    “For a long time, the systemic effect of fluoride was regarded to be most important, resulting in recommendations to use fluoride supplements such as tablets or drops. However, there is increasing evidence that the local effect of fluoride at the surface of the erupted teeth is by far more important.”
    SOURCE: Zimmer S, et al. (2003). Recommendations for the Use of Fluoride in Caries Prevention. Oral Health & Preventive Dentistry 1: 45-51.
    “By 1981, it was therefore possible to propose a paradigm shift concerning the cariostatic mechanisms of fluorides in which it was argued that the predominant, if not the entire, explanation for how fluoride controls caries lesion development lies in its topical effect on de- and remineralization processes taking place at the interface between the tooth surface and the oral fluids. This concept has gained wide acceptance… With today’s knowledge about the mechanisms of fluoride action, it is important to appreciate that, as fluoride exerts its predominant effect… at the tooth/oral fluid interface, it is possible for maximum caries protection to be obtained without the ingestion of fluorides to any significant extent.”
    SOURCE: Aoba T, Fejerskov O. (2002). Dental fluorosis: chemistry and biology. Critical Review of Oral Biology and Medicine 13: 155-70.
    “[F]luoride’s predominant effect is posteruptive and topical.”
    SOURCE: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. (2001). Recommendations for Using Fluoride to Prevent and Control Dental Caries in the United States. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report 50(RR14): 1-42.
    “Fluoride, the key agent in battling caries, works primarily via topical mechanisms: inhibition of demineralization, enhancement of remineralization, and inhibition of bacterial enzymes.”
    SOURCE: Featherstone, JDB. (2000). The Science and Practice of Caries Prevention. Journal of the American Dental Association 131: 887-899.
    “Current evidence suggests that the predominant beneficial effects of fluoride occur locally at the tooth surface, and that systemic (preeruptive) effects are of much less importance.”
    SOURCE: Fomon, SJ; Ekstrand, J; Ziegler, E. (2000). Fluoride Intake and Prevalence of Dental Fluorosis: Trends in Fluoride Intake with Special Attention to Infants. Journal of Public Health Dentistry 60: 131-9.
    “Fluoride supplementation regimens suffer from several shortcomings, the first of which may be their derivation from a time when the major effect of fluoride was thought to be systemic. Although evidence that fluoride exerts its effects mainly through topical contact is great, supplementation schemes still focus on the ingestion of fluoride.”
    SOURCE: Adair SM. (1999). Overview of the history and current status of fluoride supplementation schedules. Journal of Public Health Dentistry 1999 59:252-8.
    The case is essentially a risk-benefit issue – fluoride has little pre-eruptive impact on caries prevention, but presents a clear risk of fluorosis.”
    SOURCE: Burt BA. (1999). The case for eliminating the use of dietary fluoride supplements for young children. Journal of Public Health Dentistry 59: 260-274.
    “Until recently the major caries-inhibitory effect of fluoride was thought to be due to its incorporation in tooth mineral during the development of the tooth prior to eruption…There is now overwhelming evidence that the primary caries-preventive mechanisms of action of fluoride are post-eruptive through ‘topical’ effects for both children and adults.”
    SOURCE: Featherstone JDB. (1999) Prevention and Reversal of Dental Caries: Role of Low Level Fluoride. Community Dentistry & Oral Epidemiology 27: 31-40.
    “[L]aboratory and epidemiologic research suggests that fluoride prevents dental caries predominately after eruption of the tooth into the mouth, and its actions primarily are topical for both adults and children.”
    SOURCE: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. (1999). Achievements in Public Health, 1900-1999: Fluoridation of Drinking Water to Prevent Dental Caries. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report 48: 933-940.
    “[R]esearchers are discovering that the topical effects of fluoride are likely to mask any benefits that ingesting fluoride might have… This has obvious implications for the use of systemic fluorides to prevent dental caries.”
    SOURCE: Limeback, H. (1999). A re-examination of the pre-eruptive and post-eruptive mechanism of the anti-caries effects of fluoride: is there any caries benefit from swallowing fluoride? Community Dentistry and Oral Epidemiology 27: 62-71.
    “Although it was initially thought that the main mode of action of fluoride was through its incorporation into enamel, thereby reducing the solubility of the enamel, this pre-eruptive effect is likely to be minor. The evidence for a post-eruptive effect, particularly its role in inhibiting demineralization and promoting remineralization, is much stronger.”
    SOURCE: Locker D. (1999). Benefits and Risks of Water Fluoridation. An Update of the 1996 Federal-Provincial Sub-committee Report. Prepared for Ontario Ministry of Health and Long Term Care.
    “Recent research on the mechanism of action of fluoride in reducing the prevalence of dental caries (tooth decay) in humans shows that fluoride acts topically (at the surface of the teeth) and that there is neglible benefit in ingesting it.”
    SOURCE: Diesendorf, M. et al. (1997). New Evidence on Fluoridation. Australian and New Zealand Journal of Public Health 21 : 187-190.
    On the basis of the belief that an adequate intake of fluoride in early life is protective against caries in later life, fluoride supplements are recommended for infants and children living in areas in which the fluoride content of the drinking water is low. However, critical reviews of the evidence have led to the conclusion that the effect of fluoride in decreasing the prevalence and severity of dental caries is not primarily systemic but exerted locally within the oral cavity. Because fluoride supplements are quickly cleared from the mouth, the possibility must be considered that they may contribute to enamel fluorosis, which is unquestionably a systemic effect, while providing relatively little protection against dental caries.”
    SOURCE: Ekstrand J, et al. (1994). Fluoride pharmacokinetics in infancy. Pediatric Research 35:157–163.
    “It is now well-accepted that the primary anti-caries activity of fluoride is via topical action.”
    SOURCE: Zero DT, et al. (1992). Fluoride concentrations in plaque, whole saliva, and ductal saliva after application of home-use topical fluorides. Journal of Dental Research 71:1768-1775.
    “I have argued in this paper that desirable effects of systemically administered fluoride are quire minimal or perhaps even absent altogether.”
    SOURCE: Leverett DH. (1991). Appropriate uses of systemic fluoride: considerations for the ’90s. Journal of Public Health Dentistry 51: 42-7.
    It, therefore, becomes evident that a shift in thinking has taken place in terms of the mode of action of fluorides. Greater emphasis is now placed on topical rather than on systemic mechanisms…”
    SOURCE: Wefel JS. (1990). Effects of fluoride on caries development and progression using intra-oral models. Journal of Dental Research 69(Spec No):626-33;
    “[E]vidence has continued to accumulate to support the hypothesis that the anti-caries mechanism of fluoride is mainly a topical one.”
    SOURCE: Carlos JP. (1983) Comments on Fluoride. Journal of Pedodontics Winter. 135-136.
    “Until recently most caries preventive programs using fluoride have aimed at incorporating fluoride into the dental enamel. The relative role of enamel fluoride in caries prevention is now increasingly questioned, and based on rat experiments and reevaluation of human clinical data, it appears to be of minor importance… [A]ny method which places particular emphasis on incorporation of bound fluoride into dental enamel during formation may be of limited importance.”
    SOURCE: Fejerskov O, Thylstrup A, Larsen MJ. (1981). Rational Use of Fluorides in Caries Prevention: A Concept based on Possible Cariostatic Mechanisms. Acta Odontologica Scandinavica 39: 241-249.


    That will do for now I think


  • Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Topical + Systemic is more effective than topical alone.


    While it is a pro fluoride website they are just reporting on others research.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    Topical + Systemic is more effective than topical alone.

    I suggest you read through the links i provided ...

    Your reply above clearly shows you didn't


  • Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Quote:

    “it is widely recognized that the mechanism of action of F for caries control occurs essentially through its topical contact with the teeth. In other words, it is not necessary to ingest F to have F protection against caries.”
    SOURCE: Charone S, et al. (2012). Lack of a significant relationship between toenail fluoride concentrations and caries prevalence. Fluoride 45:133-37
    .

    “the major anticaries benefit of fluoride is topical and not systemic.”
    SOURCE: National Research Council. (2006). Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA’s Standards. National Academies Press, Washington D.C. p 13.


    Fluoride is most effective when used topically, after the teeth have erupted.”
    SOURCE: Cheng KK, et al. (2007). Adding fluoride to water supplies. British Medical Journal 335(7622):699-702.


    “The results of more recent epidemiological and laboratory studies can be summarized by stating that posteruptive (topical) application of fluoride plays the dominant role in caries prevention.”
    SOURCE: Hellwig E, Lennon AM. (2004). Systemic versus topical fluoride. Caries Research 38: 258-62.


    “[T]he majority of benefit from fluoride is now believed to be from its topical, rather than systemic, effects.”
    SOURCE: Brothwell D, Limeback H. (2003). Breastfeeding is protective against dental fluorosis in a nonfluoridated rural area of Ontario, Canada. Journal of Human Lactation 19: 386-90.


    “For a long time, the systemic effect of fluoride was regarded to be most important, resulting in recommendations to use fluoride supplements such as tablets or drops. However, there is increasing evidence that the local effect of fluoride at the surface of the erupted teeth is by far more important.
    SOURCE: Zimmer S, et al. (2003). Recommendations for the Use of Fluoride in Caries Prevention. Oral Health & Preventive Dentistry 1: 45-51.


    None of the above say it is not effective. Topical is just more effective. Topical plus systemic is even more effective again.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    weisses wrote: »
    Nice Pro fluoridation propaganda I must say you linked to
    Whereas you would never post flimsy opinionated guff from anti-fluoridation propaganda websites would you.
    weisses wrote: »
    But used topically
    Read again. Works better is what it says.
    BTW, you still haven't explained that iodine/fluoride research papers to me. Remember how you were supposed to show me the fluoride levels in the control group? You know, the data who's absence mean the whole study was worthless?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Whereas you would never post flimsy opinionated guff from anti-fluoridation propaganda websites would you.

    Where have i done that ?
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Read again. Works better is what it says.

    So why not adopt embrace something that works better and leave people with a choice in the matter ? win win
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    BTW, you still haven't explained that iodine/fluoride research papers to me. Remember how you were supposed to show me the fluoride levels in the control group? You know, the data who's absence mean the whole study was worthless?

    I actually did ... the data wasn't absent


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    weisses wrote: »
    Where have i done that ?
    :eek:
    weisses wrote: »
    So why not adopt embrace something that works better and leave people with a choice in the matter ? win win
    Adopt and embrace systemic and topical fluoride as the best method for public health? Sure, OK. Thought that was what you were against here...
    weisses wrote: »
    I actually did ... the data wasn't absent
    So, what was the water fluoride level in the control location?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    Topical plus systemic is even more effective again.

    Where does it say that ? I thought your spin was that 0.7 is the most effective concentration


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    :eek:

    Funny face ... that's all ??
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Adopt and embrace systemic and topical fluoride as the best method for public health? Sure, OK. Thought that was what you were againsy here...

    No you said Topical works better and i said why not Embrace something that works better, i did not say systemic an topical because that takes away choice.

    I am actually not against fluoride ... something i stated numerous times in this thread
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So, what was the water fluoride level in the control location?

    You can look that up yourself I think

    I took the time to look it up and post it ... the least you can do is go back in the thread and find it


  • Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    weisses wrote: »
    Where does it say that ? I thought your spin was that 0.7 is the most effective concentration

    Fluoridation is not effective on its own it is meant in conjunction with some topical application.

    Have you read all them link btw?


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  • Subscribers Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭conzy


    FREETV wrote: »
    it is an industrial waste by product, therefore it is highly toxic!
    Ask any alternative dentists.

    You will probably shocked to learn that there is also:

    alum
    lime
    sulfuric acid
    chlorine gas
    caustic soda

    These chemicals are all toxic and many of them are "industrial waste" They are used to adjust ph, help coagulation, kill bacteria etc..

    Its a perfectly safe regulated industry and I don't know why some nutjobs decided to make a song and dance about "fluoride" out of the 10s of toxic chemicals used in water treatment


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    Fluoridation is not effective on its own it is meant in conjunction with some topical application.

    That explains why surrounding countries do equally well without fluoridation (topical is far more effective) and thus makes fluoridation redundant.
    jh79 wrote: »
    Have you read all them link btw?

    Beside the quoted parts? No ..... You ?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    weisses wrote: »
    I took the time to look it up and post it ... the least you can do is go back in the thread and find it
    So you had to Google fluoridation levels in the control group since they didn't even bother to measure or cite it in a supposed peer review publication on fluoride exacerbating iodine deficiency...
    No alarm bells on the quality of that research...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    conzy wrote: »
    You will probably shocked to learn that there is also:

    alum
    lime
    sulfuric acid
    chlorine gas
    caustic soda

    These chemicals are all toxic and many of them are "industrial waste" They are used to adjust ph, help coagulation, kill bacteria etc..

    Its a perfectly safe regulated industry and I don't know why some nutjobs decided to make a song and dance about "fluoride" out of the 10s of toxic chemicals used in water treatment

    Is fluoride necessary to make the water safe ?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    weisses wrote: »
    No you said Topical works better and i said why not Embrace something that works better, i did not say systemic an topical because that takes away choice.
    So topical and systemic together work best, but you think we should use topical only as this is "better". Better than what? Nothing at all?
    If it works better in combination and has no evident safety issues what's your problem with it?
    What exactly do you think is "natural" about tap water anyway?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So you had to Google fluoridation levels in the control group

    Something you could have done yourself if you where genuinely interested

    What where the Levels ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So topical and systemic together work best,

    Where is that stated ?


  • Subscribers Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭conzy


    weisses wrote: »
    Is fluoride necessary to make the water safe ?

    No its not a necessary part of the process, I was simply pointing out that its one of many many toxic chemicals added to our water supply


  • Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    weisses wrote: »
    That explains why surrounding countries do equally well without fluoridation (topical is far more effective) and thus makes fluoridation redundant.

    Beside the quoted parts? No ..... You ?

    No not redundant just not essential. Fluoridation has been shown to be effective in Ireland , UK, USA, NZ, Oz and Ireland to name a few.

    The first one I randomly picked praises water fluoridation will post it later.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    conzy wrote: »
    No its not a necessary part of the process, I was simply pointing out that its one of many many toxic chemicals added to our water supply

    But its not a necessary chemical, all the others make the water safe (but undrinkable in the process imo )


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    No not redundant just not essential. Fluoridation has been shown to be effective in Ireland , UK, USA, NZ, Oz and Ireland to name a few.

    How can fluoridation ALONE be shown effective ? you said
    Fluoridation is not effective on its own

    SCHER says clearly that Decline in caries is the same no matter if you are in a fluoridated country or not

    So that decline can only by attributed to the Topical use because that is the only binding factor in all countries


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    weisses wrote: »
    Is fluoride necessary to make the water safe ?
    Why should it just be safe when it can be beneficial?
    Our hospitals etc aren't just supposed to be safe places in of themselves, they are there to improve health.


  • Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    weisses wrote: »
    How can fluoridation ALONE be shown effective ? you said



    EPA says clearly that Decline in caries is the same no matter if you are in a fluoridated country or not

    So that decline can only by attributed to the Topical use because that is the only binding factor in all countries

    You know well nobody is talking about fluoridation in isolation .

    We did the country thing already. Too many variables between countries.

    Fluoridation has been shown to be effective within countries where there are less variables making the findings more significant.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    weisses wrote: »
    Something you could have done yourself if you where genuinely interested

    What where the Levels ?
    Does it matter really? The paper should be retracted as meaningless and if they can't even state the fluoride level in their control group in a paper supposedly about fluoridation then I shudder to think what other nonsense is in it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    We did the country thing already. Too many variables between countries.

    Fluoridation has been shown to be effective within countries where there are less variables making the findings more significant.

    No that is only your spin on it ... where is the research that tackles the variables ?

    Remember it was SCHER that made the claim


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Does it matter really?


    You keep asking me over and over for those levels, and now it doesn't matter ?
    Are you just here to wind people up ?


    What where the levels ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    You know well nobody is talking about fluoridation in isolation .

    They are ... because reasons given for fluoridation is that poor people cannot be arsed to brush their teeth, or a basic lack of interest in dental hygiene, all discussed here on this thread.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    weisses wrote: »
    You keep asking me over and over for those levels, and now it doesn't matter ?
    Are you just here to wind people up ?


    What where the levels ?
    It doesn't matter because they were incapable of putting it in their paper.
    So you accept that the iodine/fluoride paper is fatally flawed then?


  • Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    weisses wrote: »
    No that is only your spin on it ... where is the research that tackles the variables ?

    Remember it was SCHER that made the claim

    The first link from the pro fluoridation website accounts for confounders.

    The research that stays within countries limits the variables. Check the other links for the pro website.


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  • Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    weisses wrote: »
    They are ... because reasons given for fluoridation is that poor people cannot be arsed to brush their teeth, or a basic lack of interest in dental hygiene, all discussed here on this thread.

    lack of interest in dental hygiene is not the same as no dental hygiene.


This discussion has been closed.
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