Manchester United Superthread 2014 Mod warning Post #1880 #2613

jane82 · 06-04-2014 12:36PM

adox wrote: »

Who's saying he's going to be second choice?

Seriously people, RVP is among our top three players. Why of why do you want to sell him?

He hasnt been this season. Im saying if hes failing to be motivated move him on. If hes not playing moyes game he needs to go. If its a matter of him playing this way because his instructions are to play that way keep him but I dont think thats the case.

redbaron_99 · 06-04-2014 12:38PM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Luckily though, all that suggests our attacking options up front are our strongest point right now. So why are you arguing we should weaken it How does any of that lead us to "We should sell RVP!"

Seriously, out striker and number 10 options should not be touched this summer.

I'm not saying selling RVP will solve the problems the team has this year. I don't really have a problem with him staying.
My point was that the overall team/squad badly needed an overhaul. You let a team go into a slow decline and eventually it reaches a breaking point. That's what happened this season.

DM_7 · 06-04-2014 12:38PM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I wouldn't mind the talk of selling RVP if I felt it was for the good of the team.

But honestly, I feel it's more cause people know Moyes hasn't a clue how to deploy our attacking lineup at 100% and, as per usual, talk about getting rid ogf he player rather than examine the larger issue

Most of the people talking about how United should set up to get Mata and Kagawa in the team are completely ignoring Moyes influence on tactics. This kind of discussion was taking place when SAF was in charge and it was along the lines of can SAF get RVP, Rooney and Kagawa in the team. Kagawa lost out as for the league RVP and Rooney was the best option.

Now it's get the best from having RVP, Rooney Kagawa and Mata. RVP is losing out for some in the discussion, its not about Moyes tactics it's about fans talking about how to make best use of what United have. Mata signing has changed the options and opened up new possibilities for United.

I don't want RVP gone or think he is the root of the problems this season. I just think he is behind Rooney while to get the best from Mata and Kagawa they need to play together in the first 11.

Lord TSC · 06-04-2014 12:39PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

I'm not saying selling RVP will solve the problems the team has this year. I don't really have a problem with him staying.
My point was that the overall team/squad badly needed an overhaul. You let a team go into a slow decline and eventually it reaches a breaking point. That's what happened this season.

I actually agree with that. But an overhaul shouldn't be used to cover the fact that selling RVP, Kagawa, Hernandez et al would be a disaster, and that the wrong sort of overhaul is being discussed.

spiralism · 06-04-2014 12:42PM

jane82 wrote: »

We sold darren gibson if rvp is not needed or causeing trouble or not performing he should be treated the same. Ferguson looked at them like racehorses theres no room for sentimentality. The club will have a wage structure and budget. If you could cut a bit from rvp you could add a bit to centre midfield. If you cut evras wage you could get a good lb in that does what hes told too.

We sold Darren Gibson so we should sell Robin Van Persie? Jesus, my eyes...

Again, the club can afford it. And chances are we're going to be down Evra's wage, Ferdinand's, Vidic's and (hopefully) Youngs and Valencia's. So again, why throw the baby out with the bathwater? He's at worst in our top three players in terms of ability

What happens if we sell him and Rooney has his typical post world cup performance where he comes back a stone overweight and is out of form for half the season? We're ****ed, that's what.

Also, what's this nonsense about not performing? What about the hattrick that has us playing at this stage of the competition? And causing trouble? All there is is speculation he's not too happy in this regime because he's not being used right and ran into the ground which is causing his injury problems to return. That's on one man.

Blatter · 06-04-2014 12:43PM

Quandary wrote: »

I love the look of that team and the thinking behind it, but what do you do if Rooney hates the idea of his new role?

I'd sympathise with him with regards any promises he received about his playing position under the previous manager but say to him that this is a team game and I think this is what's best for the team. You're on 300k a week and this is what I want you to do. If you don't like it and want to leave, hand in another transfer request and we'll sell you if we get an appropriate offer from a suitable club. If not, get on with it.

Rayne Wooney · 06-04-2014 12:44PM

Playing Rooney at 10 isn't good for the team, he's a striker and the club pay him 300k a week and we should get more from him in the long term than RVP at this stage.

redbaron_99 · 06-04-2014 12:46PM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I actually agree with that. But an overhaul shouldn't be used to cover the fact that selling RVP, Kagawa, Hernandez et al would be a disaster, and that the wrong sort of overhaul is being discussed.

But it's only being discussed by fans on an internet forum. How do you know Moyes and Woodward are discussing it? It's all speculation by fans who are against Moyes.

Our problems are a dodgy defence and a big empty space where the centre of midfield should be. The attacking "problems" are in reality great problems to have. And they won't seem like problems if we get the midfield and defence sorted out.

Defensive mistakes have actually cost us our Champions League spot this year.

west brom at home
Ferdinand was really poor on both goals
3 points lost

cardiff away
second goal caused by evra napping at a set piece
2 points lost

everton at home
valencia at right full. caught napping
3 points lost

spurs at home
valencia at right full. caught napping
2 points lost

fulham at home
Evra not tracking Bent for the second goal. Napping again.
2 points lost

6 individual mistakes. Rio, Evra and Valencia

12 points dropped. Add 12 points to our current standing...

Paul Tergat · 06-04-2014 12:51PM

I really hate this idea of moving Rooney into midfield. It seems its to overcome 2 issues we have - the thought that Rooney and RVP playing together is bad for the overall team and the fact we have a **** midfield.

Rooney should not be playing as a midfielder.

RichFTW · 06-04-2014 12:52PM

adox wrote: »

Which team is that? The one that won the league last season, lost it on goal difference the season before?

The **** certainly didn't hit the fan this season as regards to the squad.

The new manager arrived and wasn't up to the job.

Yep that's the same team.

Carrick and Ferdinand were unreal last season, very poor this year, especially Rio. That's a major hole in your defence for a start. Add to that the fact that Evra & Vidic are close to the end of their careers and out first choice RB was out injured for most of the season and you have got yourself the worse united back line I have ever seen.

How can Moyes play the usual united attacking football if he has to worry about defence all the time? How many late or sloppy goals have united conceded because of this defence as well that led to the shock results? The majority.

Cleverley, Young, Valencia and Nani were not good enough last year and are not good enough this year. RVP's form masked a poor squad overall.

Moyes may not be good enough but how can you judge the man when you see what he inherited. You think Fergie would have left if he thought the squad was good enough to win 2 or 3 more titles? Not a hope.

Headshot · 06-04-2014 12:52PM

You know Iv never seen a club transformed so much after a manager left like Everton

adox · 06-04-2014 12:55PM

jane82 wrote: »

He hasnt been this season. Im saying if hes failing to be motivated move him on. If hes not playing moyes game he needs to go. If its a matter of him playing this way because his instructions are to play that way keep him but I dont think thats the case.

You could say that for practically the whole team this season. Should we get rid of them all?

DM_7 · 06-04-2014 12:57PM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I actually agree with that. But an overhaul shouldn't be used to cover the fact that selling RVP, Kagawa, Hernandez et al would be a disaster, and that the wrong sort of overhaul is being discussed.

With SAF in charge Hernandez was going to leave eventually.

We now have Mata and Januzaj on top of RVP, Rooney, Kagawa, Hernandez, Welbeck. At least one will go that is the reality.

If RVP stays Hernandez and Kagawa go. If RVP goes then it's possible to keep Hernandez and Kagawa.

Others think keeping RVP is a must which is fine but players from the attack will leave.

When I look around I see other clubs that have or had the same issues, it's not a system or manager issue. I see Real selling Ozil, Cavani unhappy with PSG, Chelsea selling Mata itself is an example of how players have to be moved on.

Quandary · 06-04-2014 12:57PM

Blatter wrote: »

I'd sympathise with him with regards any promises he received about his playing position under the previous manager but say to him that this is a team game and I think this is what's best for the team. You're on 300k a week and this is what I want you to do. If you don't like it and want to leave, hand in another transfer request and we'll sell you if we get an appropriate offer from a suitable club. If not, get on with it.

That sounds like the correct way to deal with the problem, but player power is huge in todays game. After agreeing to pay him 300k per week I think Moyes intends to build the team around Rooney being the main man up front. It is his favourite position, and to be fair to him, whenever he has got a sustained run up front he has been very impressive.

If Moyes is being given another season I can see RVP leaving in the Summer. Since Fergie retired he doesn't seem to be as happy at the club and I can't see Moyes motivating him.

Just so it's clear, I want Moyes gone from the club BUT I don't see it happening unfortunately. I would be surprised if both Moyes and RVP are at the club next September.

adox · 06-04-2014 01:03PM

People are deluded if they think the squad neeeds a major overhaul.

To actually think people have said "how can Moyes be expected to play attacking football if he has to worry about the defence all the time". I mean the mind boggles.

Moyes has slowly chipped away at people's expectations with his awful season in charge, to the point now that some are re writing history.

GSPfan · 06-04-2014 01:03PM

I'd gladly get rid of Young And Valencia this Summer and keep the rest in attack.

I'd spend every penny we have on Midfield and Defense.

adox · 06-04-2014 01:05PM

GSPfan wrote: »

I'd gladly get rid of Young And Valencia this Summer and keep the rest in attack.

I'd spend every penny we have on Midfield and Defense.

Agreed and the defence is in a lot healthier position than some here think.

Vidic Ferdinand and Evra can be replaced by a new left back and one new centre back. Don't think we need to replace both.

redbaron_99 · 06-04-2014 01:10PM

adox wrote: »

Agreed and the defence is in a lot healthier position than some here think.

Vidic Ferdinand and Evra can be replaced by a new left back and one new centre back. Don't think we need to replace both.

It didn't look too healthy two weeks ago when we had to play carrick in the centre of defence.

Rayne Wooney · 06-04-2014 01:12PM

Everton have a tough run in I read somewhere, I think I'll start to pray for an Arsenal collapse in a delusional fashion

RichFTW · 06-04-2014 01:12PM

adox wrote: »

People are deluded if they think the squad neeeds a major overhaul.

To actually think people have said "how can Moyes be expected to play attacking football if he has to worry about the defence all the time". I mean the mind boggles.

Moyes has slowly chipped away at people's expectations with his awful season in charge, to the point now that some are re writing history.

Anybody who has watched that defence and thinks that there are no problems is deluded.

Rio (35), Evra (32), Vidic (32), Carrick (32). No overhaul needed in defence or defensive midfield? Rio practically rolled out the red carpet for Olympiacos in the first leg. Evra has been sloppy all season.

DM_7 · 06-04-2014 01:12PM

GSPfan wrote: »

I'd gladly get rid of Young And Valencia this Summer and keep the rest in attack.

I'd spend every penny we have on Midfield and Defense.

Nice idea,

But that leaves RVP, Rooney, Mata, Kagawa, Nani all demanding first team action. Hernandez, Welbeck and Januzaj needing a fair share of first team games. Its just not going to happen when there is only one striker spot. At least one of the above is going even if Val and Young go. Would also need to buy a winger with Nani recent injury record.

Paul Tergat · 06-04-2014 01:13PM

4th place is long long gone.

thebigredone · 06-04-2014 01:16PM

My thoughts on the RVP situation, fergie went for the quick fix, we all know after losing the title on goal difference what his intentions were, and it worked, but the team was crying out for midfield strengthening. This is the team that had a 40 year old giggs playing central and scholes had to come out of retirement!

Nobody could predict what was going to happen to hargreaves and fletcher, but nothing was done to fix the problems their absence caused. It's a shame that pogba left and more could've been done to keep him, but it seems like there was a clash and fergie made his mind up.

So now we have a team with plenty of forward options, and an awfully weak midfield. I think this lead to moyes crossing overload, our midfield isn't strong enough to play football the way we'd all like, and it's moyes now having to clean up after years of inadequate transfer dealings.

What we have now is rooney with a new contract on massive money seemingly the main man, RVP who to be fair scored the goals that helped win the league last year, but he's a 30+ injury prone player who likes to think he's the main man, and hernandez and welbeck, who are still relatively young and look hungry to get in the team, and who I think could be far more valuable to the team in the long term.

Playing rooney behind RVP when he's fit causes more problems, we've seen how well kagawa and mata can play when in the same side. I just think if fergie had spent 25 or 30m on a first class central midfield player instead of on RVP the team would be in a far better situation than it is now.

adox · 06-04-2014 01:19PM

RichFTW wrote: »

Anybody who has watched that defence and thinks that there are no problems is deluded.

Rio (35), Evra (32), Vidic (32), Carrick (32). No overhaul needed in defence or defensive midfield? Rio practically rolled out the red carpet for Olympiacos in the first leg. Evra has been sloppy all season.

Try reading my post again. You've listed three defenders there, which is addressed in my post.

spiralism · 06-04-2014 01:19PM

Watching Everton, they look class and better than they ever have under DM. A damning indictment if ever.

Quandary · 06-04-2014 01:20PM

Paul Tergat wrote: »

4th place is long long gone.

Excluding a loss today, Arsenal would need to lose 2 more games and draw at least 1 of their remaining 5 for us to draw level on points with them. And that is based on us winning all our remaining fixtures (beating EVerton at Goodison in the process!!)

4th is most definitely well gone unfortunately!

adox · 06-04-2014 01:20PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

It didn't look too healthy two weeks ago when we had to play carrick in the centre of defence.

Through lack of quality defenders in the squad? No, through injuries which is unfortunate.

redbaron_99 · 06-04-2014 01:23PM

adox wrote: »

Through lack of quality defenders in the squad? No, through injuries which is unfortunate.

It's not unfortunate. And I don't question the quality.
Defensive injury crises are a frequent occurrence at united. Our defenders are injury prone. That's my point.
If you don't see that, then you don't watch united very much.

Hococop · 06-04-2014 01:25PM

spiralism wrote: »

Watching Everton, they look class and better than they ever have under DM. A damning indictment if ever.

big thing is chelsea will want to keep lukaku, they could get barry but he is on big wages at city so he would have to take a big drop, intresting to see how they get on next season

GSPfan · 06-04-2014 01:26PM

DM-ICE wrote: »

Nice idea,

But that leaves RVP, Rooney, Mata, Kagawa, Nani all demanding first team action. Hernandez, Welbeck and Januzaj needing a fair share of first team games. Its just not going to happen when there is only one striker spot. At least one of the above is going even if Val and Young go. Would also need to buy a winger with Nani recent injury record.

So it looks like we may be in a Europe League nightmare next year and you are worried about who will get games? Do you remember 99? Our finest strike force in living memory for me and we had 4 first choice strikers.

Don't worry about what will happen when they are all fit cause it rarely happens. Worry about when half of them are injured cause that happens all the time.

Manchester United Superthread 2014 Mod warning Post #1880 #2613

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