Manchester United Superthread 2014 Mod warning Post #1880 #2613

patmac · 18-03-2014 11:24AM

TheDoc wrote: »

Last season was hardly a requirement to have anyone do anything out of the norm, or lay into the squad. We won the league at a canter, one of the poorest leagues I can remember, our rivals in disarray and not coming anywhere near mounting a challenege. It was a horrendous standard that provided an over inflated position of power for the club. I can't BELIEVE the club felt the squad needed little to no investment. It's crazy. We have done essentially what EVERYONE critised City for after they won the league.

Accept we have a title winning side that can do it again. If history of the PL has taught us ANYTHING is that when a title winning side sit on their lorals, and make no additional investment, they tend to fail to defend it the following year.

I don't buy this poorest league crap, just because it's a bit more exciting this year because it's closer, (not for Utd unfortunately) the Premier League hasn't grown that much in quality in a year, actually with Bale gone and as the poor results in Europe show it could arguably be a poorer league this year and this is the most damning part for Moyes, to have turned United from champs to chumps in less than a year has taken some doing, and for me he must go.

Paulegend · 18-03-2014 11:27AM

Pighead wrote: »

Read the three words before 'they are world champions' before you give yourself a heart attack.

well i could say that nothingham forrest are european champions but that means absolutely f*ck all in terms of relevance

saying world champions implies or at least looks like it implies that they are current "world champions" as in fifa world club cup

maybe choosing ones words more carefully would alleviate any misunderstanding

tallaghtmick · 18-03-2014 11:28AM

Paulegend wrote: »

well i could say that nothingham forrest are european champions but that means absolutely f*ck all in terms of relevance

saying world champions implies or at least looks like it implies that they are current "world champions" as in fifa world club cup

maybe choosing ones words more carefully would alleviate any misunderstanding

Off the pitch

Will I Amnt · 18-03-2014 11:28AM

Paulegend wrote: »

well i could say that nothingham forrest are european champions but that means absolutely f*ck all in terms of relevance

saying world champions implies or at least looks like it implies that they are current "world champions" as in fifa world club cup

maybe choosing ones words more carefully would alleviate any misunderstanding

Here's a clue... Finance.

bucketybuck · 18-03-2014 11:28AM

TheDoc wrote: »

But it's without doubt, that there is a trend of blaming a manager before the players. If this squad is SO strong, as people would have you believe, and if you truely believe this squad was a good "title winning" squad, then it's even MORE damning of the players, that they can be so hapless and clueless. Even if I was to believe it was 100% the manager that was the problem here, what does that say about our so called experienced, title winning squad?

What point are you even trying to make? I don't think there is anybody that seriously thinks there isn't a problem with the squad, we know there are serious issues with the squad.

Its not a zero sum game though. Even accepting the squad limitations Moyes is still doing a terrible job. He is not effectively using the tools at his disposal.

beno619 · 18-03-2014 11:29AM

TheDoc wrote: »

Last season was hardly a requirement to have anyone do anything out of the norm, or lay into the squad. We won the league at a canter, one of the poorest leagues I can remember, our rivals in disarray and not coming anywhere near mounting a challenege. It was a horrendous standard that provided an over inflated position of power for the club. I can't BELIEVE the club felt the squad needed little to no investment. It's crazy. We have done essentially what EVERYONE critised City for after they won the league.

Everyone knew we needed 2 CM and a LB the manager didnt bring them in. Honestly its the first time ive heard anyone come in here with opinions from the Sunday supplement.

The fact remains this squad should be performing better.

Liverpool brought in Toure and Sakho most of thier first team is the same as last.

Arsenal bought Ozil, Chelsea Willian, Shurrle and Matic, City Negredo, Navas Fernandinho.

Nobody stopped Moyes from strengthening he fecked up.

TheDoc · 18-03-2014 11:29AM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

You could say the same about this season. If United had the same points as they had this time last season where would they be?
I'd wager top or very close to it.
The standard this season is as bad, if not worse.

Points tallies this season do look lower then normal, and that probably accounts to some obscure losses alright.

I know that with new managers for City and Chelsea, and ourselves, slipups would occur and that accounts for some obscure losses for City and Chelsea, to the likes of Villa, Norwich, or dropped points to Cardiff etc.

But do you not think there is alot more competitive top teams now then the dross that was there last year?

City, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal are ALOT more competitive then they were last term. I'd maybe feel their squads and teams have gotten stronger over last. Last year after City capitulated, nothing was anywhere near us.

Blatter · 18-03-2014 11:31AM

TheDoc wrote: »

In all honesty, could I see the utter, rapid demise of Vidic into what has been a somewhat harrowing campaign for him, borderline depressing when I see the shadow he has become? No, I wouldn't have seen it coming.

Vidic hasn't declined much as a player this season at al imo. He's playing in a dysfunctional team. No organisation, no radical plan, no fluidity, no identidy. I'm convinced that if Jose had Vidic at Chelsea, he'd be still talked about as one of the best CBs in the league.

It's no shock at all that none of the players in the squad bar maybe the goalkeeper have performed consistently well throughout this season. It's nigh on impossible under this shambles of a regime.

beno619 · 18-03-2014 11:31AM

TheDoc wrote: »

David Gill addressing a press conference after announcing the news of Sir Alexs Fergusons planned retirement.

You can google further and find his statement to the board, which goes into more specifics regarding how they do not envisage a big spent in the forthcoming summer ( the summer of Moyes arrival) as the squad should be capable of challenging for the title for a number of years.

They should be be. The manager is not capable though.

rob316 · 18-03-2014 11:32AM

patmac wrote: »

I don't buy this poorest league crap, just because it's a bit more exciting this year because it's closer, (not for Utd unfortunately) the Premier League hasn't grown that much in quality in a year, actually with Bale gone and as the poor results in Europe show it could arguably be a poorer league this year and this is the most damning part for Moyes, to have turned United from champs to chumps in less than a year has taken some doing, and for me he must go.

It was though, if Chelsea,City, Arsenal or even Liverpool were as strong last season as they were this season United wouldn't have walked the league. There was not one proper challenger outside of united for the league last season.

Don't get me wrong you win the league on merit and United were far and away the best team last season but to suggest the league is poorer this season is steaming BS.

Agueroooo · 18-03-2014 11:32AM

TheDoc wrote: »

David Gill addressing a press conference after announcing the news of Sir Alexs Fergusons planned retirement.

You can google further and find his statement to the board, which goes into more specifics regarding how they do not envisage a big spent in the forthcoming summer ( the summer of Moyes arrival) as the squad should be capable of challenging for the title for a number of years.

OK then they all sit down see all their mistakes and Moyes starts afresh next season, maybe?

Will I Amnt · 18-03-2014 11:34AM

TheDoc wrote: »

City, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal are ALOT more competitive then they were last term. I'd maybe feel their squads and teams have gotten stronger over last. Last year after City capitulated, nothing was anywhere near us.

I don't think you can discount the demise(D. Moyes) of Manchester United as a factor in the extra competitiveness between the top 4 this season.

Paulegend · 18-03-2014 11:34AM

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Off the pitch

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Here's a clue... Finance.

ok so basically we are going with the whole line that players will go for money???

why didnt ye say? i love this arguement:D

man utd will offer player x 300k a week to play for them in a non european football season

or

team b will offer player x 250k a week to play and star in a european football season

:rolleyes:

just because there are merceneries in the game doesnt mean that the biggest stars are merceneries.

kroos, vidal, pogba, costa, draxler, ronaldo, messi

do you really think any of them would take an extra 50-100k a week over playing euopean football??

city and chelsea already have players on over 200k a week. arsenal have shown they are willing to pay big for big players. liverpool have suarez on 200k a week. psg bayern barca monaco madrid. all teams that pay players on 300k a week.

united are not the only club offering big wages

money talks but the kind of money that would be needed to blow the others out of the water is the kind of money united cant even afford

TheDoc · 18-03-2014 11:34AM

Leftist wrote: »

To go from having arguable the best squad in the league, and adding a 27m midfielder, a 37m attacking midfielder and the best thing to come from the academy since the class of 92 and it's now 'shockingly sub par to their counterparts'

I think I get the crux of our differences now on opinion. We have added three excellent players to our squad, of that there is no doubt.

But we have done nothing to address Evra,Vidic, Ferindnand, Carrick, Young and Valencia.

And to be fair, as I've said, I don't think anyone could have REALLY envisaged such a collapse in performance and ability of our defense + Carrick. But there was murmurs of Moyes wanting a new CB and LB in the summer, and well, maybe he saw it?

But look, your dismissing my stuff as rubbish, your not really open to any discussion just assuming I'm some absolute looper, so we can leave it at that so.

tallaghtmick · 18-03-2014 11:37AM

Paulegend wrote: »

ok so basically we are going with the whole line that players will go for money???

why didnt ye say? i love this arguement:D

man utd will offer player x 300k a week to play for them in a non european football season

or

team b will offer player x 250k a week to play and star in a european football season

:rolleyes:

just because there are merceneries in the game doesnt mean that the biggest stars are merceneries.

kroos, vidal, pogba, costa, draxler, ronaldo, messi

do you really think any of them would take an extra 50-100k a week over playing euopean football??

city and chelsea already have players on over 200k a week. arsenal have shown they are willing to pay big for big players. liverpool have suarez on 200k a week. psg bayern barca monaco madrid. all teams that pay players on 300k a week.

united are not the only club offering big wages

money talks but the kind of money that would be needed to blow the others out of the water is the kind of money united cant even afford

What he was saying as club financially we are probably the best in terms of sponsorship, fans etc.

Lord TSC · 18-03-2014 11:38AM

beno619 wrote: »

Everyone knew we needed 2 CM and a LB the manager didnt bring them in.

Including, and this is important, Moyes himself, who openly admitted those positions needed strengthening.

And after two transfer windows, he still hasn't addressed the left back issue (and in fact sold off our cover for the position), and did manage to actually bring in a CM player, yet still can't control the midfield.

Agueroooo · 18-03-2014 11:39AM

tallaghtmick wrote: »

What he was saying as club financially we are probably the best in terms of sponsorship, fans etc.

does it really need explaining but?

bucketybuck · 18-03-2014 11:39AM

TheDoc wrote: »

But there was murmurs of Moyes wanting a new CB and LB in the summer, and well, maybe he saw it?

Maybe he saw it? Maybe he should have done something about it.

Will I Amnt · 18-03-2014 11:40AM

@paulegend

Read what you're replying to ffs.
The question was put that if United are out of Europe would they be able to sustain wages like Rooney's.

You're making up your own arguments.

Paulegend · 18-03-2014 11:40AM

tallaghtmick wrote: »

What he was saying as club financially we are probably the best in terms of sponsorship, fans etc.

ye definitely are, but what im refering to is if vidal or kroos (as an example) had to choose between city and united who do you think he would choose?

Blatter · 18-03-2014 11:42AM

TheDoc wrote: »

I think I get the crux of our differences now on opinion. We have added three excellent players to our squad, of that there is no doubt.

But we have done nothing to address Evra,Vidic, Ferindnand, Carrick, Young and Valencia.

And to be fair, as I've said, I don't think anyone could have REALLY envisaged such a collapse in performance and ability of our defense + Carrick. But there was murmurs of Moyes wanting a new CB and LB in the summer, and well, maybe he saw it?

But look, your dismissing my stuff as rubbish, your not really open to any discussion just assuming I'm some absolute looper, so we can leave it at that so.

Evra wasn't all that great last season, Vidic missed most of last season through injury, Young and Valencia were as bad last season as they were this one. Carrick and Ferdinand are not as good as last season, but as I said, neither are the vast, vast majority of the squad in comparison to last season because they're not being managed properly.

And I think it's a very fair point to cite Moyes having Zaha, Januzaj, Fellaini and Mata as extra options this seasons without losing anybody significant. Whatever way I try to look at this objectively I keep coming back to Moyes being the problem.

beno619 · 18-03-2014 11:43AM

TheDoc wrote: »

But look, your dismissing my stuff as rubbish, your not really open to any discussion just assuming I'm some absolute looper, so we can leave it at that so.

So basically your opinion is that...

Moyes wasn't allowed to strengthen.

Signing Mata and Fellaini and adding Adnan has made us weaker than last season.

The squad is poor.

7th is the best we could possibly achieve with the current squad.

Moyes couldnt possibly have done anything to improve the current situation.

Did I miss anything ?

tallaghtmick · 18-03-2014 11:46AM

Paulegend wrote: »

ye definitely are, but what im refering to is if vidal or kroos (as an example) had to choose between city and united who do you think he would choose?

I couldnt answer that, if they craved money then City, but of they craved a proper club then United, but regardless of that the previous poster was only trying to say we are a world beater in how we are run, you just didnt get it for a few posts.

Paulegend · 18-03-2014 11:46AM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Read what you're replying to ffs.
The question was put that if United are out of Europe would they be able to sustain wages like Rooney's.

You're making up your own arguments.

well of course they would be able to sustain those wages for a couple of years but what about everyone elses??

thats 15 million a year just on rooney

if they offered a new player similar wages thats 30 million a year on wages for just 2 players

they still have players like dagae rvp young kags mata nani all on wages of more than 100k a week also which is (if they where only on 100k a week each which they are not) another 30 million

so thats 60 million a year on a team of

dagae, rvp, young, nani, mata, kags, rooney and if they make one big attacking signing (who everyone believes could be kroos)

thats before making 3 defensive signings

no europe means sponsor income will start to slow down.

15 million a year for 1 player is not sustainable long term for a club without european football regardless of current sponsorship deals

MagicIRL · 18-03-2014 11:47AM

Right. Lets (kinda') cheer this thread up!

Realistically, how would you sort out the United team?

Manager-wise, I would like Klopp and with him coming in I would want Rio, Evra, Carrick, Valencia, Cleverly, Young, Smalling ( I just don't see the appeal) and even RVP (if he's acting the bollox) out of the team.

I would bring in Vidal and Kroos. Kagawa would be my no. 10 and Rooney would play up top. A new CB to go with Jones/Evans, and a LB to replace Evra.

bangkok · 18-03-2014 11:49AM

United have planned ahead for life without champions league football.... a couple of lucrative friendlies are being lined up for the middle east during champions league nights to offset the loss of champions league income....

TheDoc · 18-03-2014 11:51AM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I don't think you can discount the demise(D. Moyes) of Manchester United as a factor in the extra competitiveness between the top 4 this season.

Entirely agree. Look I'm not saying his hands are clean in this, he's made some blunders, he's failed tremendously in my view of stamping authority on this team, and outlining these performances are not going to be accepted. But this needed doing first half of the season, not now.

Maybe I'm not making it clear in my posts, or people just see my name by a post and make an assumption, but I fully and totally accept he has a hand in the crap going on, but I don't believe for a SECOND it's entirely him.

Blatter wrote: »

Vidic hasn't declined much as a player this season at al imo. He's playing in a dysfunctional team. No organisation, no radical plan, no fluidity, no identidy.

I think he has, dramatically. He was always suspect for a blunder or a red card, but this season he has seemed to be pretty riddled with mistakes and poor defending.

I'd also argue he is captain because he was seen as a leader, a tough no nonsense centre half. I thought there was a really good moment from the Liverpool game where Evra had AGAIN just strolled out to close Sturridge down from the wing and allowed another cross in. Vidic was nearly nonchallantly telling him to get out quicker, and Evra made a little frown and a little shrug of the shoulder. I nearly ****ed my pint at the telly.

I remember Vidic used to hound people for being slack, now he looks like hes a timid bloke asking people to do stuff like its a favour

Paulegend · 18-03-2014 11:51AM

tallaghtmick wrote: »

I couldnt answer that, if they craved money then City, but of they craved a proper club then United, but regardless of that the previous poster was only trying to say we are a world beater in how we are run, you just didnt get it for a few posts.

if thats what the poster means then i fully agree. i think uniteds model is one that has worked. but its built on the principality that united are a successful team

sponsors at united will be worried right now. they pay big money because the club the sponsor is a global juggernaut. if united stop getting worldwide coverage (lack of european football will do that) then they will start to look at other more marketable options.

sponsorship should be stable at united for at least another 3 years before they start to pull away from the club. if in that time united dont get back into europe we will see smaller deals at united (sponsorship wise) rather than big record setting sponsors

beno619 · 18-03-2014 11:52AM

bangkok wrote: »

United have planned ahead for life without champions league football.... a couple of lucrative friendlies are being lined up for the middle east during champions league nights to offset the loss of champions league income....

I would be really surprised if this happened, It was nonsense drawn up by the papers..

Paulegend · 18-03-2014 11:55AM

beno619 wrote: »

I would be really surprised if this happened, It was nonsense drawn up by the papers..

i dont know. i think it could easily happen if united dont get EL. while i dont expect they will go away every time there is a european night i do think a few middle eastern trips will be organised.

maybe they could set up friendlies in europe against any "big teams" that dont have european footie aswell

Manchester United Superthread 2014 Mod warning Post #1880 #2613

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