Manchester United Superthread 2014 Mod warning Post #1880 #2613

HooohRaaah · 18-03-2014 10:41AM

If Manchester United Football Club don't play in the Champions League can they really sustain the wages of Wayne Rooney and the likes? Will they be able to attract the players to get them back into the top 4?
Next year Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and arguably Spurs with Van Gall at the helm are going to strengthen. It'll be a tough few years for you lads just get used to it. This is where your loyalty will be tested.

For the past 20+ years you have enjoyed title after title, Europe every year, FA Cups, League Cups etc. Look how Liverpool fans have stuck by their team. Look how Spurs fans etc remain loyal. What United are experiencing is what football is about. There are good times and bad times. You United fans have been exceptionally fortunate the past 20 years. I say some of you don't know what not being the top 3 feels like.

Pighead · 18-03-2014 10:44AM

HooohRaaah wrote: »

If Manchester United Football Club don't play in the Champions League can they really sustain the wages of Wayne Rooney and the likes? Will they be able to attract the players to get them back into the top 4?

Yes. Utd may not be doing well on the pitch but off it they are world champions. Now if they went two or three seasons without Champions League that may pose a few problems but a one season hit can be easily absorbed.

TheDoc · 18-03-2014 10:48AM

Leftist wrote: »

jesus christ. I can't even be bothered with this rubbish anymore. You are blind.

I've stated before my support has drained over the course of the year, and after Sunday it's hanging by a thread.

But I can't help feel it's more then JUST the manager. His Everton teams played more coherant attacking football then we are. It's so unfounded what has happened this year, that I can't truely get my head around it.

But it's without doubt, that there is a trend of blaming a manager before the players. If this squad is SO strong, as people would have you believe, and if you truely believe this squad was a good "title winning" squad, then it's even MORE damning of the players, that they can be so hapless and clueless. Even if I was to believe it was 100% the manager that was the problem here, what does that say about our so called experienced, title winning squad?

Chelsea lost Mourinho, in a time where it looked like they may have been starting to roll out a domestic dominance over us, a squad assembled by Mourinho that would dominate English football and puff, he was gone. Within two seasons that same squad was in a champions league final, and nearly winning the league , under Avram Grant. That squad pulled together, and fought for the club nearly securing a double.

What has this so called title winning squad achieved? I think the only blindness, is anyone who believes this squad was as strong or as good as last years title win might indicate. It was a hapless league, with utter rubbish quality and no challenge from our rivals, and we walked the league at a canter with a relatively young and mediocre( by our standards) squad.

We allowed key components age, without any meaningful replacements, and masked our deficincies with a marque striker singing.

We came into this season looking like we needed a midfielder, we are going to end it realising that Vidic, Evra, Ferdinand and Carrick are either leaving, or not up to standard anymore, and we are still carrying mediocrity in the squad like Young and Valencia.

The only blindness going on here, was the club thinking the squad from last year could "provide a platform for the incoming manager to remain competitive for a number of years".

Lennonist · 18-03-2014 10:49AM

Leftist wrote: »

he'd pick someone like neil lennon.

i sincerely hope he is not consulted. And definitely not bobby either.

Ferguson is United's big problem that won't go away. Obviously he was hugely successful when he was manager but him hanging around overshadows everything a new manager does. Moyes was beholden to Ferguson so probably didn't feel empowered to make the wholesale changes that were necessary. That problem won't go away until Fergusons influence is eradicated. He'll probably come back for another stint if Moyes is sacked.

bullvine · 18-03-2014 10:51AM

Lennonist wrote: »

Ferguson is United's big problem that won't go away. Obviously he was hugely successful when he was manager but him hanging around overshadows everything a new manager does. Moyes was beholden to Ferguson so probably didn't feel empowered to make the wholesale changes that were necessary. That problem won't go away until Fergusons influence is eradicated. He'll probably come back for another stint if Moyes is sacked.

I think Moyes getting rid of the backroom staff was a critical error on his part.

I would class that as a major wholesale change.

Lord TSC · 18-03-2014 10:53AM

Poor Fergie; one side lift him up as some God who could drag a seventh place team into comfortable champions, while others paint him as a cancer who is stroking his ego and destroying the club.

Of course he should be consulted; he is the reason the club is as successful as it is today. And while he shouldn't have 100% control over who comes in next, he should be consulted. Of course he should.

As for the idea the squad needs to be fixed up, I think you'd be hard pressed to find people to disagree with that notion. The problem comes with the fact that I, like I think many, don't think Moyes can be trusted with that rebuilding job. And while I accept we need fixes, I do not believe at all that the difference in the team between now and last year is a difference between 1st at a canter and 7th at a struggle. The reality is that a great manager should be challanging for a CL spot, not conceding the EL spot is already gone.

Lennonist · 18-03-2014 10:55AM

bullvine wrote: »

I think Moyes getting rid of the backroom staff was a critical error on his part.

I would class that as a major wholesale change.

A manager normally brings in their own back room team. He needed to make further changes with the playing staff. If he is still there this summer he probably will make those changes for next season, but he might be sacked by then.

newballsplease · 18-03-2014 10:58AM

Theres something very unlikeable about Steve Round !

Leftist · 18-03-2014 10:58AM

TheDoc wrote: »

I've stated before my support has drained over the course of the year, and after Sunday it's hanging by a thread.

But I can't help feel it's more then JUST the manager. His Everton teams played more coherant attacking football then we are. It's so unfounded what has happened this year, that I can't truely get my head around it.

But it's without doubt, that there is a trend of blaming a manager before the players. If this squad is SO strong, as people would have you believe, and if you truely believe this squad was a good "title winning" squad, then it's even MORE damning of the players, that they can be so hapless and clueless. Even if I was to believe it was 100% the manager that was the problem here, what does that say about our so called experienced, title winning squad?

Chelsea lost Mourinho, in a time where it looked like they may have been starting to roll out a domestic dominance over us, a squad assembled by Mourinho that would dominate English football and puff, he was gone. Within two seasons that same squad was in a champions league final, and nearly winning the league , under Avram Grant. That squad pulled together, and fought for the club nearly securing a double.

What has this so called title winning squad achieved? I think the only blindness, is anyone who believes this squad was as strong or as good as last years title win might indicate. It was a hapless league, with utter rubbish quality and no challenge from our rivals, and we walked the league at a canter with a relatively young and mediocre( by our standards) squad.

We allowed key components age, without any meaningful replacements, and masked our deficincies with a marque striker singing.

We came into this season looking like we needed a midfielder, we are going to end it realising that Vidic, Evra, Ferdinand and Carrick are either leaving, or not up to standard anymore, and we are still carrying mediocrity in the squad like Young and Valencia.

The only blindness going on here, was the club thinking the squad from last year could "provide a platform for the incoming manager to remain competitive for a number of years".

obviously the players have been poor, and I agree the club took the wrong approach.

but the condition of the players is not down to some incapability to adapt to life after ferguson, valencia and young are as poor this season as last. RVP played for one season under ferguson. Mata and Januzaj never played a full game under ferguson. Fellaini never played under ferguson.

the conditions of the players and their horrible escalating drop in confidence comes from regular humiliation and a coach who's philosphopy is akin to Jack charlton. Keep it hard for the opposition.

They are in pieces out there. No 3/5 new signings can change that.

Whatever chance you think he might have had is gone.

I can't respect the opinion that he needs to be given time. I genuinely think it's a stupid, pointless, stubborn position that is borne out of a desperation to prove to themselves that they are not the glory hunters the ABUs called them for so many years.

TheDoc · 18-03-2014 10:59AM

Agueroooo wrote: »

Honestly on a scale of 1-to-10 how much to you really believe the above paragraph ?

It's become more and more believable as the season goes on.

In all honesty, could I see the utter, rapid demise of Vidic into what has been a somewhat harrowing campaign for him, borderline depressing when I see the shadow he has become? No, I wouldn't have seen it coming.

Could I see is being over run in most games, with a horrendously weak midfield completely void of any pace? No, but that's cause we have masked that problem up over the years.

Could I believe in my wildest dreams we would struggle to create anything going forward, no, of course not.

But throughout the season, there has been a GOOD commentary going on by some journalists who are VERY close to Manchester United and are somewhat reliant in things they go on with. And that commentary has been entirely lost by the over riding rubbish that's gone on the pitch, and the focus by coverage as to "why" its happening, not "how" it happened.

On a scale of 1-10, I'd go with an 8. I could write more paragraphs on it,but like I said I'd say my posts are going to be marginalized for the next while. But there is good commentary, articles and pieces out there providing some supportive evidence etc.

If Moyes is still there in the summer, and provided a pretty big transfer kitty I think it proves it to me beyond doubt. A big massive ****ing "I told you so".

Maximus Alexander · 18-03-2014 10:59AM

Ugh, still miserable over Sunday.

Lord TSC · 18-03-2014 11:04AM

Moyes has spent 65m and dropped the team down to a solid 7th. And I personally think both were great signings too.

Why would anyone think another 200m will help him turn things around

Throwing money at the problem is not the way to solve it.

bangkok · 18-03-2014 11:05AM

steve round....phil Neville.....imagine going into be coached by these guys everyday..........

Courtesy Flush · 18-03-2014 11:06AM

The word on the street is that United board will give Moyes three more games and if things dont improve they will remove him and appoint Ryan Giggs as interim manager.

beno619 · 18-03-2014 11:07AM

TheDoc wrote: »

I've stated before my support has drained over the course of the year, and after Sunday it's hanging by a thread.

But I can't help feel it's more then JUST the manager. His Everton teams played more coherant attacking football then we are. It's so unfounded what has happened this year, that I can't truely get my head around it.

But it's without doubt, that there is a trend of blaming a manager before the players. If this squad is SO strong, as people would have you believe, and if you truely believe this squad was a good "title winning" squad, then it's even MORE damning of the players, that they can be so hapless and clueless. Even if I was to believe it was 100% the manager that was the problem here, what does that say about our so called experienced, title winning squad?

Chelsea lost Mourinho, in a time where it looked like they may have been starting to roll out a domestic dominance over us, a squad assembled by Mourinho that would dominate English football and puff, he was gone. Within two seasons that same squad was in a champions league final, and nearly winning the league , under Avram Grant. That squad pulled together, and fought for the club nearly securing a double.

What has this so called title winning squad achieved? I think the only blindness, is anyone who believes this squad was as strong or as good as last years title win might indicate. It was a hapless league, with utter rubbish quality and no challenge from our rivals, and we walked the league at a canter with a relatively young and mediocre( by our standards) squad.

We allowed key components age, without any meaningful replacements, and masked our deficincies with a marque striker singing.

We came into this season looking like we needed a midfielder, we are going to end it realising that Vidic, Evra, Ferdinand and Carrick are either leaving, or not up to standard anymore, and we are still carrying mediocrity in the squad like Young and Valencia.

The only blindness going on here, was the club thinking the squad from last year could "provide a platform for the incoming manager to remain competitive for a number of years".

Maybe Grant is a better manager than Moyes ?

Are you trying to tell me that Moyes has has better players to work with than this current United squad ?

A squad full of winners that were easily better than Madrid over 2 legs last year with Wayne Rooney sitting on the bench.

Are Valencia and Cleverley really that bad ? Can Chicha not handle rigours of being a premier league player and just been fooling us for the past 3 seasons?

Is RVP a shadow player, Kagawa and Mata ?

We play the worst football in the league and have a goal record at home comparable to Fulham and Norwich.

Are we as poor as those side or is it the manager ? I know which one I find easier to believe.

TheDoc · 18-03-2014 11:09AM

Leftist wrote: »

Give me a break.

That's too posts now in response to mine that have been pretty off the cuff one liners, just disregarding what I've put forward.

To recap, the above in quotes is to me saying, that the only title winning quality we have in the squad is

David De Gea
Robin Van Persie
Wayne Rooney
Juan Mata
Rafael Da Silva le full name I fail to remember all the time
Maraone Fellaini

My next sentence then went on to state, that while you can't challenge for a title with only six players of quality, it's even more impossible to do it with most of them missing chunks of the season.

DDG has been the only constant. Rafael missing large chunks to that hamstring injury at the start then another injury. Rooney out to injury and hitting his inevitable dry spell, RVP out to injury, Fellaini out to injury and Mata arriving in January.

Where else, in our squad, is there title winning credentials if you please.

Factoring in, which I thought was a given, that Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra and Carrick are shadows of their former selves. Sorry maybe that wasn't clear, but I consider these four as falling into that cliche at lightning pace "over the hill".

So assuming you agree on the above paragraph (if not may get to toss the blind comment back at you) , you are by the quoted comment, implying you think we could win a title, or mount a title challenge, with six players.

As I said in a previous post, apart from those six ( and its not even a given anymore) compare the rest to their counterparts in the teams above us, and you can see based on this seasons form, and even in some cases just in general, that our players are shockingly sub par to their counterparts.

As I said previously, the only blindness here, is people believing this squad could provide a platform to challenge for the title for a number of years.

NTMK · 18-03-2014 11:09AM

he'll be sacked once the 4th CL spot is out of reach (by CL victory or league position) but not before its mathmatically impossible

5 games (4 Pl, 1 CL) should be enough games for Arsenal/Pool to hit 75 points

There will be a clause that gives the board the option to sack should minimum citeria not be met. I'd imagine below 4th is a trigger

Will I Amnt · 18-03-2014 11:10AM

rob316 wrote: »

I have said for years Arsenal with all there quality havn't got near the title because they lacked a leader. Chelsea have Terry, City have Kompany and Liverpool have Gerrard.

Yeah, because Gerrard has been single handedly dragging Liverpool to title winning positions for years now :rolleyes:
This season they actually have as good a chance as ever and the team look better without him.

United have the same squad of players as they won the league with last year but yeah, no leaders...

Agueroooo · 18-03-2014 11:10AM

TheDoc wrote: »

It's become more and more believable as the season goes on.

In all honesty, could I see the utter, rapid demise of Vidic into what has been a somewhat harrowing campaign for him, borderline depressing when I see the shadow he has become? No, I wouldn't have seen it coming.

Could I see is being over run in most games, with a horrendously weak midfield completely void of any pace? No, but that's cause we have masked that problem up over the years.

Could I believe in my wildest dreams we would struggle to create anything going forward, no, of course not.

But throughout the season, there has been a GOOD commentary going on by some journalists who are VERY close to Manchester United and are somewhat reliant in things they go on with. And that commentary has been entirely lost by the over riding rubbish that's gone on the pitch, and the focus by coverage as to "why" its happening, not "how" it happened.

On a scale of 1-10, I'd go with an 8. I could write more paragraphs on it,but like I said I'd say my posts are going to be marginalized for the next while. But there is good commentary, articles and pieces out there providing some supportive evidence etc.

If Moyes is still there in the summer, and provided a pretty big transfer kitty I think it proves it to me beyond doubt. A big massive ****ing "I told you so".

excellent reply and all valid points (especially about the churnalists) but if true then it begs the question of the current board...

Why buy a manager out of his contract with Everton only to employee him and make him wait during season#1 to see how things pan out before letting him apply his own stamp on things?

IF the above is true then the blame will be spread and Moyes will be in the job come next season.

Paulegend · 18-03-2014 11:10AM

Pighead wrote: »

Yes. Utd may not be doing well on the pitch but off it they are world champions. Now if they went two or three seasons without Champions League that may pose a few problems but a one season hit can be easily absorbed.

no they are not

they won it 5 years ago?????

they are the premier league champions however but thats very much forgotten about with the season that has happened

united are about to have only one single year outside europe but it will be difficult to get CL back next year

city, chelsea, liverpool and arsenal will all spend this summer to keep their top 4 spots. they are all miles above united right now.

united need 3 defenders before signing anything of quality in an attacking sense. it could be very easily 2 years at least without european footie for united to rebuild. that means that it will be hard to attract big names regardless of cash

Will I Amnt · 18-03-2014 11:12AM

Paulegend wrote: »

no they are not

they won it 5 years ago?????

My word...

Agueroooo · 18-03-2014 11:14AM

Paulegend wrote: »

no they are not

they won it 5 years ago?????

they are the premier league champions however but thats very much forgotten about with the season that has happened

united are about to have only one single year outside europe but it will be difficult to get CL back next year

city, chelsea, liverpool and arsenal will all spend this summer to keep their top 4 spots. they are all miles above united right now.

united need 3 defenders before signing anything of quality in an attacking sense. it could be very easily 2 years at least without european footie for united to rebuild. that means that it will be hard to attract big names regardless of cash

You need to re-read the reply.

TheDoc · 18-03-2014 11:15AM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

United have the same squad of players as they won the league with last year but yeah, no leaders...

Last season was hardly a requirement to have anyone do anything out of the norm, or lay into the squad. We won the league at a canter, one of the poorest leagues I can remember, our rivals in disarray and not coming anywhere near mounting a challenege. It was a horrendous standard that provided an over inflated position of power for the club. I can't BELIEVE the club felt the squad needed little to no investment. It's crazy. We have done essentially what EVERYONE critised City for after they won the league.

Accept we have a title winning side that can do it again. If history of the PL has taught us ANYTHING is that when a title winning side sit on their lorals, and make no additional investment, they tend to fail to defend it the following year.

Leftist · 18-03-2014 11:17AM

TheDoc wrote: »

As I said in a previous post, apart from those six ( and its not even a given anymore) compare the rest to their counterparts in the teams above us, and you can see based on this seasons form, and even in some cases just in general, that our players are shockingly sub par to their counterparts.

don't even know what to say to this.. really. They won the league last season, did well to do with granted, with the squad needing additions. We all know what.

To go from having arguable the best squad in the league, and adding a 27m midfielder, a 37m attacking midfielder and the best thing to come from the academy since the class of 92 and it's now 'shockingly sub par to their counterparts'

You are choosing to believe what you want to believe and i haven't got time to read through huge posts basically repeating the same party line over and over again.

Leftist · 18-03-2014 11:18AM

TheDoc wrote: »

Accept we have a title winning side that can do it again. If history of the PL has taught us ANYTHING is that when a title winning side sit on their lorals, and make no additional investment, they tend to fail to defend it the following year.

alright, done.

Now you're just lying.

bullvine · 18-03-2014 11:19AM

I hate the fact that last seasons performances get dismissed, performances away to Newcastle, City and Chelsea were absolutely superb prior to Christmas. Even the Real match in Bernabeau, they played very well.

Think about those four games and then the absolute muck we've had to endure this season.

Paulegend · 18-03-2014 11:19AM

Agueroooo wrote: »

You need to re-read the reply.

??

"they are world champions" ?????

"they can go without champions league for 2-3 years" = they could easily go 2 years without it

Will I Amnt · 18-03-2014 11:23AM

TheDoc wrote: »

Last season was hardly a requirement to have anyone do anything out of the norm, or lay into the squad. We won the league at a canter, one of the poorest leagues I can remember, our rivals in disarray and not coming anywhere near mounting a challenege. It was a horrendous standard that provided an over inflated position of power for the club. I can't BELIEVE the club felt the squad needed little to no investment. It's crazy. We have done essentially what EVERYONE critised City for after they won the league.

Accept we have a title winning side that can do it again. If history of the PL has taught us ANYTHING is that when a title winning side sit on their lorals, and make no additional investment, they tend to fail to defend it the following year.

You could say the same about this season. If United had the same points as they had this time last season where would they be?
I'd wager top or very close to it.
The standard this season is as bad, if not worse.

TheDoc · 18-03-2014 11:24AM

Agueroooo wrote: »

excellent reply and all valid points (especially about the churnalists) but if true then it begs the question of the current board...

Why buy a manager out of his contract with Everton only to employee him and make him wait during season#1 to see how things pan out before letting him apply his own stamp on things?

IF the above is true then the blame will be spread and Moyes will be in the job come next season.

David Gill addressing a press conference after announcing the news of Sir Alexs Fergusons planned retirement.

"We've been preparing for that in terms of the squad, the ability within the squad, the contract situation within the squad and the age of the squad, etcetera. But off the field as well, we've been making sure we're at the forefront of things. We don't envisage bringing in someone who will breakup this squad. Sure, one or two of his own signings, but we are looking for continuity and stability.

"We've just opened the expanded new facilities at Carrington, so things have been worked on and we have to look forward.

"So I think any person, the new manager coming in, will inherit a great squad, a great infrastructure off the pitch and great staff around him, so the new person will be walking into - yes, a difficult situation with those number of trophies - but he will also know he will have the support of the Manchester United family and the squad to take that forward, so it's a dream job I think."

You can google further and find his statement to the board, which goes into more specifics regarding how they do not envisage a big spent in the forthcoming summer ( the summer of Moyes arrival) as the squad should be capable of challenging for the title for a number of years.

Pighead · 18-03-2014 11:24AM

Paulegend wrote: »

??

"they are world champions" ?????

"they can go without champions league for 2-3 years" = they could easily go 2 years without it

Read the three words before 'they are world champions' before you give yourself a heart attack.

Manchester United Superthread 2014 Mod warning Post #1880 #2613

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