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Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

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Comments

  • #1682
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    King Mob wrote: »
    Why wouldn't there be? There's sizable fractions of "christans" who do not even believe in God.

    Could it be hard to believe perhaps because a person who does not believe the Quran is the word of god cannot rightly be called a Muslim?

    When Robin was saying Breivik was a Christian even though by Breivik's own admission he didn't believe in God who spoke up? Who argued against him?


    Nobody. Why not?


  • #1683
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    gaynorvader wrote: »
    And so don't go to mass every week, which is what we're discussing, isn't it?

    And as far as the Muslim angle goes, I'd apply the same criteria. If they identify as a Muslim, but have no intention of following all its rules, they are either ignorant or hypocrites.

    Which would mean that you don't distinguish between "moderates" and "fundamentalists". Or at least the fundamentalists are not the ignorant and hypocrites.


  • #1684
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Do you want to spin the wheel on the wheel of hypocrisy/ All you have to do is answer this question.

    Was the radical Islamic American preacher Anwar al Awlaki a Muslim,

    He is the one who was murdered without trial after being put on Obama\s personal kill list. They also killed his innocent teenage son, also Ameican.

    This is his mugshot from when he was arrested for using prostitutes. Sex outside marriage is completely forbidden in Islam, nevermind with prostitutes.
    Al%2BAwlaki%2BMugSHOT%2BSD.jpg

    So Muslim or not Muslim
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    You\d have a point if you point out an Islamic sect that says sex with hookers is all good.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Huh, taking prostitutes in forbidden in ALL ISLAM, not specific branches of it only, therefore all that is relevant ot establishing the hypocrist is the knowledge that Awlaki was Muslim, or was he...
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I believe you are mistaken.


    [/LEFT]
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I just quoted the Quran to you. It is THE central tenet that the Quran is the word of God.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Name a single Muslim from the 1 billion plus who believes this.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    See the Quran. Without which thers is no "Five Pillars of Islam" nor Islam itself.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I'm not asking you to out an "Infidel" in the tribal region of Pakistan. I'm merely asking you to name a single self-identified Muslim in the history of Islam that rejects the Quran.

    Opps - I seem to have wandered into a thread on When is a Muslim not a Muslim...

    Checks thread title...

    Well, now I am confused.


  • #1685
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Opps - I seem to have wandered into a thread on When is a Muslim not a Muslim...

    Checks thread title...

    Well, now I am confused.



    We can use the Christian example if you want. It's the same thing.

    Robin said this.

    "Let me say it again. Breivik is a christian. He said it himself."


    Why is Breivik a "Christian" when he self-identifies but regular Irish people lose this right if they are Pro-Choice, for example?


  • #1686
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    When Robin was saying Breivik was a Christian even though by Breivik's own admission he didn't believe in God who spoke up? Who argued against him?

    Nobody. Why not?
    I'm sorry you seem to have missed the question I asked.

    If a person doesn't believe in the Quran is he a muslim, yes or no?


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  • #1687
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    We can use the Christian example if you want. It's the same thing.

    Robin said this.

    "Let me say it again. Breivik is a christian. He said it himself."


    Why is Breivik a "Christian" when he self-identifies but regular Irish people lose this right if they are Pro-Choice, for example?

    Do stop shouting BB.

    What does that have to do with your many, many post on Islam? Are we discussing Islam????

    Are we discussing how many of the population of Norway are Christian????

    ..despite your best efforts to drag us off down those yellow brick roads - NO.

    I seem to recall this thread began primarily as a discussion on whether one can be a Roman Catholic - i.e. a member of an organisation with a clear set of doctrinal rules which falls under the wider umbrella of Christianity - while knowingly flaunting/disobeying/disbelieving those same doctrinal rules.

    Some say yes, some say no.

    The term 'Christian' is a far broader term and encompasses all those who believe in Jesus as Saviour/Messiah from Quakers to Westboro Baptists. It includes Desmond Tutu and Tomás de Torquemada, Martin Luther King Jr and Fred Phelps, Nano Nagle and Elizabeth I.

    There are over 40 k different Christian denominations with a wide range of conflicting beliefs from Pre-Destination to Free-Will, Pacifism to Violently Militant. I neither know or care what denomination -if any- Brevik is/was a member of but if he believes that Jesus was the Messiah then he is a Christian which as we know is a term that covers a very broad range of additional beliefs depending on how one interprets Scripture.

    Roman Catholic being a sub-sect of that broad group which has a very specific set of rules it expects members of follow. It is a sub-sect which the majority of Irish people self-identify as belonging to while at the same time knowingly flaunting/disobeying/disbelieving the rules of the organisation.

    Can one be a Christian and Pro-Choice - yes.
    Can one be a Roman Catholic and Pro-Choice - not if one is following the rules of the organisation one claims to be a member of...


  • #1688
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Jernal wrote: »
    Naming would be wrong. People have a right to their privacy. Especially when there's a risk others may not construe it so peacefully. Apostasy is the label some may passionately toss on it. There may even be some people on this thread who self identify as muslim but don't believe that central tenet. What does it matter though? As long as they self identify as belong to islam then they're islamic and that's what's the belief in Islam entails. So the quotation you provided is irrelevant.

    So why would people who self identify as being Catholic actually not belong to the Catholic Church ??


  • #1689
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,644 ✭✭✭swampgas


    BB has a point, which simply goes to show that the whole issue of religious identification is a huge mess. We are overloading words like "Christian" and "Catholic" and "Muslim" to mean different things in different contexts. We can try using phrases like cultural catholic, or a al carte catholic, to indicate a specific meaning but there are no agreed definitions for any of these either, partly because many people want to insist on their own specific definition rather than come to some common agreement.

    I would argue that someone who claims religious motivation for their actions can be described as being "of that religion" - e.g. Breivik could be described as a Christian and Anwar al Awlaki as a Muslim, but as there is no agreed definition of Christian or Muslim there will be those who disagree.

    IMO this whole argument is pointless until some common terms of reference can be defined and get some mainstream acceptance. I'm not holding my breath on that one though.

    Back to the OP: if this thread has managed to demonstrate anything, it has managed to show that asking people their religion in the Census is largely pointless, as the data returned is almost impossible to interpret in any useful way.


  • #1690
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    We can use the Christian example if you want. It's the same thing. Robin said this. "Let me say it again. Breivik is a christian. He said it himself."
    When quoting somebody, it really is best to provide a reference - the one you're missing is here and the source for the "Breivik is a christian" claim is here
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    When Robin was saying Breivik was a Christian even though by Breivik's own admission he didn't believe in God who spoke up? Who argued against him? Nobody. Why not?
    Possibly because exactly the same link quotes him saying that he'll be "praying to god" - a strange thing to do if, as you claim, he "didn't believe in god".

    http://web.archive.org/web/20111130172810/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8663762/Norway-killings-Breiviks-plan-for-the-day.html
    Breivik wrote:
    I’m pretty sure I will pray to God as I’m rushing through my city, guns blazing, with 100 armed system protectors pursuing me with the intention to stop and/or kill.


  • #1691
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Do stop shouting BB.

    What does that have to do with your many, many post on Islam? Are we discussing Islam????

    Are we discussing how many of the population of Norway are Christian????

    ..despite your best efforts to drag us off down those yellow brick roads - NO.

    According to you we are talking vegetarianism
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    So by the same token can a person call themselves a Vegetarian even if they eat meat as long as they self-identify as Vegetarian?

    And you manage to get that one in at page 5 and many who agree on BB going off topic thanked you there for just doing the same


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  • #1692
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    weisses wrote: »
    So why would people who self identify as being Catholic actually not belong to the Catholic Church ??
    You'll have to ask them.

    I Heart Internet is the only self-identifying catholic who's been open on this question and as far as I can understand, (s)he's happy for anybody to call themselves "catholic" if they think they're catholic according to their own particular definition for the term.


  • #1693
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    weisses wrote: »
    According to you we are talking vegetarianism



    And you manage to get that one in at page 5 and many who agree on BB going off topic thanked you there for just doing just the same

    I don't think BB needs you to stand up for him/her ;).

    Tell me - did I post multiple times about Vegetarianism??

    Have I introduced meat-eating individuals who claim to be vegetarians to the discussion and demand people comment on them?

    Since you checked what I have posted in this thread - going all the way back to page five to find the one you quoted - you should have the answer at your disposal.


  • #1694
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    swampgas wrote: »
    BB has a point, which simply goes to show that the whole issue of religious identification is a huge mess.
    Yes, that's what most posters have said is the main problem with this debate. BB is simply taking advantage of that confusion in order to score debating points by slipping from one implied definition to another without really worrying -- like so many religious people do too -- about what the term means, or should mean, or how it could be tied down and so on.
    swampgas wrote: »
    if this thread has managed to demonstrate anything, it has managed to show that asking people their religion in the Census is largely pointless, as the data returned is almost impossible to interpret in any useful way.
    The census results adequately answer the question "There's a box marked [catholic] on the census form. Have you selected this choice yourself, or had it done on your behalf?".

    Beyond that, the results are as meaningless as the term "catholic" itself.


  • #1695
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    robindch wrote: »
    You'll have to ask them.

    I Heart Internet is the only self-identifying catholic who's been open on this question and as far as I can understand, (s)he's happy for anybody to call themselves "catholic" if they think they're catholic according to their own particular definition for the term.

    Dont think so

    Problem with the census according to many here is the fact that Catholics self identify as being Catholic

    I don't understand when a As long as a Muslim self identify as belong to Islam then they're Islamic

    But when a Catholic self identify's as being Catholic its an issue.

    Unless I'm missing the point completely (wouldn't be the first time)


  • #1696
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Which would mean that you don't distinguish between "moderates" and "fundamentalists". Or at least the fundamentalists are not the ignorant and hypocrites.

    I do distinguish, however both identify as Muslim. I believe the fundamentalists ignore several tenets of their faith which would make them ignorant and/or hypocrites.
    To reuse an example, is a pacifist who hits someone still a pacifist? What would you call someone who claimed to be a pacifist but sparred at the weekends?


  • #1697
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    swampgas wrote: »
    BB has a point, which simply goes to show that the whole issue of religious identification is a huge mess. We are overloading words like "Christian" and "Catholic" and "Muslim" to mean different things in different contexts. We can try using phrases like cultural catholic, or a al carte catholic, to indicate a specific meaning but there are no agreed definitions for any of these either, partly because many people want to insist on their own specific definition rather than come to some common agreement.

    I would argue that someone who claims religious motivation for their actions can be described as being "of that religion" - e.g. Breivik could be described as a Christian and Anwar al Awlaki as a Muslim, but as there is no agreed definition of Christian or Muslim there will be those who disagree.

    IMO this whole argument is pointless until some common terms of reference can be defined and get some mainstream acceptance. I'm not holding my breath on that one though.

    Back to the OP: if this thread has managed to demonstrate anything, it has managed to show that asking people their religion in the Census is largely pointless, as the data returned is almost impossible to interpret in any useful way.

    Oh - he absolutely has a point but it seems to me that he is using that point to either a) try and deflect from the topic under discussion or b) bring the discussion around to what he wishes to discuss with scant regard to the actual topic.


  • #1698
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I don't think BB needs you to stand up for him/her ;).

    Tell me - did I post multiple times about Vegetarianism??

    Have I introduced meat-eating individuals who claim to be vegetarians to the discussion and demand people comment on them?

    Since you checked what I have posted in this thread - going all the way back to page five to find the one you quoted - you should have the answer at your disposal.

    You yourself goes off topic numerous times in this thread on various subjects

    Ranging from right of people to have their children not educated in any religion

    to that there were Gaelic women and they drank, shagged, owned lots of stuff in their own right, had private armies and navies

    I just quoted one .... Just pointing out the Hypocrisy here


  • #1699
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    weisses wrote: »
    You yourself goes off topic numerous times in this thread on various subjects

    Ranging from right of people to have their children not educated in any religion

    to that there were Gaelic women and they drank, shagged, owned lots of stuff in their own right, had private armies and navies

    I just quoted one .... Just pointing out the Hypocrisy here

    Did I eat your cakey?

    Touch a nerve perhaps?

    Otherwise I fail to see why you have chosen me as the particular object of your judgement seeing as others have also questioned why BB keeps bringing Islam into it but they have not been accused of hypocrisy.

    But do keep reading my posts - you might learn something that people usually have to pay university registration fees to hear.


  • #1700
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I'm sorry, can we just ignore what weisses is on about and stick to the much more important issue....

    Did someone say cake?


  • #1701
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    weisses -
    weisses wrote: »
    Unless I'm missing the point completely (wouldn't be the first time)
    weisses wrote: »
    You yourself goes off topic numerous times in this thread on various subjects
    You may not have noticed, but there's a semblance of a conversation going on around you. You're welcome to take part in it if you wish, but you're not welcome to drop by randomly, post a few irrelevant, off-topic sentences, then disappear again. Cards and bans lie down the end of that particular style.


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  • #1702
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Did I eat your cakey?

    Touch a nerve perhaps?

    Otherwise I fail to see why you have chosen me as the particular object of your judgement seeing as others have also questioned why BB keeps bringing Islam into it but they have not been accused of hypocrisy.

    You where off topic in this discussion numerous times ... then its indeed hypocritical to sum up all the points you find are off topic posted by him

    The only relevance to cakey's is that it ended up in your face
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    But do keep reading my posts - you might learn something that people usually have to pay university registration fees to hear.

    Don't need to be in UNI to read Off topic waffle


  • #1703
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Cabaal wrote: »
    I'm sorry, can we just ignore what weisses is on about and stick to the much more important issue....

    Did someone say cake?

    I made Madeira. Proper Madeira - not that dry up crap that self-identifies as Madeira.

    It's in my face apparently....


  • #1704
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    robindch wrote: »
    weisses - You may not have noticed, but there's a semblance of a conversation going on around you. You're welcome to take part in it if you wish, but you're not welcome to drop by randomly, post a few irrelevant, off-topic sentences, then disappear again. Cards and bans lie down the end of that particular style.

    Sorry where did i post off topic sentences ?

    What is off topic about My reply in your first quote... I replied to a post from Jernal regarding self identifying

    And I replied to a poster blaming someone else from going off topic but was showed he did the same

    And i drop by regularly but post randomly maybe because i don't feel the urge to respond to everything (same as yourself and many other posters here)


  • #1705
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    weisses wrote: »
    [...]
    As above, there's a conversation going on and you're welcome to join if you wish, but do try to avoid irrelevant jottings, or dropping by, posting then disappearing again. It's not conducive to good forum karma, or the ongoing conversation.

    Thanking you.


  • #1706
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,644 ✭✭✭swampgas


    weisses wrote: »
    Dont think so

    Problem with the census according to many here is the fact that Catholics self identify as being Catholic

    I don't understand when a As long as a Muslim self identify as belong to Islam then they're Islamic

    But when a Catholic self identifies as being Catholic its an issue.

    Unless I'm missing the point completely (wouldn't be the first time)

    In Ireland Muslims are a small minority and do not control 90% of primary schools. So let's leave the Muslims out of it.

    Ireland has a long history of Christianity, and of inter-Christian conflict, and the current position is that the RCC (a very specific group) has an influential position in the running of primary schools and hospitals.

    The reason we are so interested in just how many people are actual "Catholics" - i.e. real, solid, RCC following, Pope believing, contraception-avoiding, mass-attending Catholics - is that the values of most Irish "Catholics" are not represented by RCC dogma. So, why should the RCC control so many schools and hospitals?

    The problem is that most Irish people are (putting it mildly) rather confused about what the RCC actually represents.

    They seem to think that they can call themselves Catholics, and claim membership of the RCC, but avoid any responsibility for what the RCC is doing in (say) opposing contraception in the developing world, or in (say) opposing laws for divorce, abortion, or marriage equality.

    Hence the debate about what a "Catholic" really is.

    HTH


  • #1707
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    swampgas wrote: »
    In Ireland Muslims are a small minority and do not control 90% of primary schools. So let's leave the Muslims out of it.

    Ireland has a long history of Christianity, and of inter-Christian conflict, and the current position is that the RCC (a very specific group) has an influential position in the running of primary schools and hospitals.

    The reason we are so interested in just how many people are actual "Catholics" - i.e. real, solid, RCC following, Pope believing, contraception-avoiding, mass-attending Catholics - is that the values of most Irish "Catholics" are not represented by RCC dogma. So, why should the RCC control so many schools and hospitals?

    The problem is that most Irish people are (putting it mildly) rather confused about what the RCC actually represents.

    They seem to think that they can call themselves Catholics, and claim membership of the RCC, but avoid any responsibility for what the RCC is doing in (say) opposing contraception in the developing world, or in (say) opposing laws for divorce, abortion, or marriage equality.

    Hence the debate about what a "Catholic" really is.

    HTH

    Add to that the constant refrain of 'historically' the RCC did this, that and the other and we should be grateful and allow them to contine when the historical facts are they did no such thing.

    Not to mention the old 'Ireland has always been a Catholic country' BS.


  • #1708
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    One more thing to add,

    The RCC's official position on the child sex abuse cases is to:
    - Not release records they have to the UN, Irish Government or anyone else
    - Not to take responsibility for any of the abuses even though they came up with the guidelines for moving around sex abusing priests.

    These types of policy's go against the vast majority of sane people in Ireland who think that both of these policy's are insane and wrong,

    To claim you are a catholic but claim you think the Vatican is wrong is kind of like claiming you are against racism and you think allowing immigrants into the uk is perfectly fine but you are a member of the BNP.

    Some users may not like the BNP comparison and perhaps thats fair, after all one organization hates gay people and is against gay marriage and the other....err hates gay people and is against gay marriage. Both claim to be peaceful and none hating.


  • #1709
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    swampgas wrote: »
    In Ireland Muslims are a small minority and do not control 90% of primary schools. So let's leave the Muslims out of it.


    Just to stop you there

    I replied to this post
    Jernal wrote: »
    Naming would be wrong. People have a right to their privacy. Especially when there's a risk others may not construe it so peacefully. Apostasy is the label some may passionately toss on it. There may even be some people on this thread who self identify as muslim but don't believe that central tenet. What does it matter though? As long as they self identify as belong to islam then they're islamic and that's what's the belief in Islam entails. So the quotation you provided is irrelevant.


  • #1710
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    weisses wrote: »
    Just to stop you there

    I replied to this post

    I think you misunderstood the intention of my post. Throughout most of this thread Bb has been taking issue with posters stating some people who identify as Catholic aren't necessarily Catholic. Yet when it's suggested to him that a Muslim might not necessarily agree with something regarded as 'core' to Islam he reacts to extremes almost as if to say it's not possible for a person who believes they're muslim to be anything other than how BB imagines muslims to be. Which should sound familiar.


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  • #1711
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,552 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    In terms of comparing levels of religious adherence:

    Religion == Religion

    Denomination == Denomination

    Christian = Muslim

    Catholic/Protestant = Sunni/Shia

    Catholic != Muslim


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