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Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

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Comments

  • #1562
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    He disagreed with the 42.1% figure but couldn't suggest what an alternative figure might be.

    Do you or do you not have a verifiable independent source which states the exact figures for attendance at Mass in Ireland?

    If No - your figure was a guesstimate.
    If Yes - please do not 'point to' this evidence - present it.


  • #1563
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Pointed to. Quote mined more like.

    I have no idea what this means
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Up to 42.1% now I see - did someone get out the miracle gro?

    It was always 42.1%. And an extra 6% attend more than once a week. It's in Figure 1 of this document http://www.catholicbishops.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Practice-and-Belief-among-Catholics-in-the-Republic-of-Ireland.pdf

    Still not clear what your problem is with this survey as an indication of weekly mass attendance.


  • #1564
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I really have to disagree with you there.

    Really? Ok. I find that a bit strange, but even if you only disagree with one thing the Catholic church preaches, you would have to clarify each time you described yourself as Catholic that you didn't agree with that particular point in order to use the label honestly. Otherwise, you are misleading people when you describe yourself as Catholic to them.


  • #1565
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    It was always 42.1%. And an extra 6% attend more than once a week. It's in Figure 1 of this document http://www.catholicbishops.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Practice-and-Belief-among-Catholics-in-the-Republic-of-Ireland.pdf

    Still not clear what your problem is with this survey as an indication of weekly mass attendance.
    From what I am getting from the report, that's based on a sample size and not the general population.
    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Do you seriously doubt that at least 1 million people attend weekly mass in this country though?
    Yes. I really seriously doubt that. Like, seriously. Bunching denominations doesn't count either.

    To believe that, you'd want me to also believe that about 15% of self-proclaimed Catholics don't attend church normally, which is not believable.


  • #1566
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Cydoniac wrote: »
    Well, let's give another constrasting quote to shake things up;

    It's not accurately verifiable, I don't care who you talk or point to. There's no point rattling it down to a single number, but there's no doubt about the levels of attendance being dire nowadays and mostly consisting of a generation of people who lived in a time where the RC was a lot different.

    City mass attendance is reportedly much lower than rural areas, Yes.

    Do you seriously doubt that at least 1 million people attend weekly mass in this country though?


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  • #1567
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Do you or do you not have a verifiable independent source which states the exact figures for attendance at Mass in Ireland?

    If No - your figure was a guesstimate.
    If Yes - please do not 'point to' this evidence - present it.

    No. My figure was a guestimate. Statistics is a sham. Don't believe it.

    Jesus freaks want to teach your children statistics and hate.


  • #1568
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I have no idea what this means



    It was always 42.1%. And an extra 6% attend more than once a week. It's in Figure 1 of this document http://www.catholicbishops.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Practice-and-Belief-among-Catholics-in-the-Republic-of-Ireland.pdf

    Still not clear what your problem is with this survey as an indication of weekly mass attendance.

    If a survey is as good as a headcount then the surveys which show that many Irish 'Catholics' don't even believe in God are as valid as the census (or national headcount to put it another way) and fatally undermine the figures given for 'religion' - or can one not believe in God and still be a Catholic???


    Now - was there ever a verifiable head count or is your guestimate ironically based on a survey?


  • #1569
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Cydoniac wrote: »
    From what I am getting from the report, that's based on a sample size and not the general population.


    Yes. I really seriously doubt that. Like, seriously. Bunching denominations doesn't count either.

    To believe that, you'd want me to also believe that about 15% of self-proclaimed Catholics don't attend church normally, which is not believable.

    What part of this analysis do you not think is reasonable Cydoniac?
    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    According to the 2011 Census (Wikipedia) there were 3,861,335 catholics in the Republic of Ireland.

    According to this report (Practice and Belief amongst Roman Catholics in Ireland - by the Bishops Conference, academically led and funded by EU Framework grants) - Fig 1 shows that, in 2009/10, 42.1% of Irish catholics attended mass once per week and 6% attended more than once a week.

    So 48.1% of 3,861,335 is 1,857,302 people at least once a week.

    Now, even allowing a (HUGE) margin of error that's comfortably in excess of 1 million people at mass each week in the Republic alone.


  • #1570
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Jesus freaks want to teach your children statistics and hate.
    Nah, just that being gay is an abomination, a woman is inferior, you must bow to the man in the sky DO NOT QUESTION WHY, humans cannot thank themselves for achievement, that God loves everyone but some 'everyone's are more loving than others. Can go on here...

    Pick and mix from the above, might sound overly ott but majority of so called 'Jesus freaks' happily believe in at least a few of the above.
    What part of this analysis do you not think is reasonable Cydoniac?

    "From what I am getting from the report, that's based on a sample size and not the general population."

    While it doesn't count for much either, it would be nice to have a source that isn't Wikipedia or "The Irish Catholic Bishops Conference", but that doesn't detract from their findings.


  • #1571
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 22,875 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    King Mob wrote: »
    Your ignoring my point.

    Do the people who identify as catholic in the census all agree with the Churches position on social issues such as homosexuals or abortion?
    Yes or no?

    If yes, back this up.
    If no, then your pedantic points about the other polls are irrelevant because you agree with what they indicate.
    the answer is a definite no


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  • #1572
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Cydoniac, you forgot gay marriage is wrong. Even I Heart Internet agrees with that one.

    As he's not ok to allow them equal rights and to agree with gay marriage,

    People that don't view their fellow man and women as equal to themselves and are ok to deny them such equal rights due to their religious views are jesus freaks in my view,


  • #1573
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Do you or do you not have a verifiable independent source which states the exact figures for attendance at Mass in Ireland?

    If No - your figure was a guesstimate.
    If Yes - please do not 'point to' this evidence - present it.

    Editted my post ... he provided the link later

    Just found this piece as well

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming-special/church/7-out-of-10-attend-mass-every-week-twice-national-average-244345.html


  • #1574
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Cydoniac, you forgot gay marriage is wrong. Even I Heart Internet agrees with that one.

    As he's not ok to allow them equal rights and to agree with gay marriage,

    People that don't view their fellow man and women as equal to themselves and are ok to deny them such equal rights due to their religious views are jesus freaks in my view,

    Honestly, I don't see why Catholics should have to provide a marriage ceremony for homosexuals if they don't want to. Just so long as they have access to the same rights in the eyes of the law. I think a church marriage should have to be approved by the state as well as the church, I don't understand why the two are in any way related.


  • #1575
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    m
    gaynorvader wrote: »
    Honestly, I don't see why Catholics should have to provide a marriage ceremony for homosexuals if they don't want to. Just so long as they have access to the same rights in the eyes of the law. I think a church marriage should have to be approved by the state as well as the church, I don't understand why the two are in any way related.
    I wouldn't want to get married in a church, so that doesn't apply to me and to a degree I see why some don't want that. I have a problem when they do anything to stop gay marriage in any form, and start spouting nonsense like 'it changes the definition of marriage' 'it ruins traditional values' 'blah blah blah union should be between a man and a woman'. There are valid reasons why people would rather be married than civil partnered, and they mostly don't have anything to do with religious belief. Unfortunately not being married still has legal drawbacks and non-recognitions. Perhaps if people who were civil partnered indeed had the same rights, there many not be as much of a kickup. Who is it for groups of people to say what is right in the Bible and not, anyway? If marriage and the Bible is personal, it's simply down to personal interpretation of what is deemed acceptable or not. There has already been a lot of contention and conflict of values in the Methodist Church recently, for example. all down to who believes what is right or not.


  • #1576
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    gaynorvader wrote: »
    Honestly, I don't see why Catholics should have to provide a marriage ceremony for homosexuals if they don't want to. Just so long as they have access to the same rights in the eyes of the law. I think a church marriage should have to be approved by the state as well as the church, I don't understand why the two are in any way related.

    They don't have to provide a marriage ceremony, nobody ever said they did.

    But they appose the state making gay marriage legal, all because they want to believe to themselves that "marriage" is exclusively a religious thing and is between and mammy and a daddy only.

    Of course marriage has existed long before jesus was invented as have gay relationships and unions/marriages.


  • #1577
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    Cydoniac wrote: »
    I wouldn't want to get married in a church, so that doesn't apply to me and to a degree I see why some don't want that. I have a problem when they do anything to stop gay marriage in any form, and start spouting nonsense like 'it changes the definition of marriage' 'it ruins traditional values' 'blah blah blah union should be between a man and a woman'. There are valid reasons why people would rather be married than civil partnered, and they mostly don't have anything to do with religious belief. Unfortunately not being married still has legal drawbacks and non-recognitions. Perhaps if people who were civil partnered indeed had the same rights, there many not be as much of a kickup. Who is it for groups of people to say what is right in the Bible and not, anyway? If marriage and the Bible is personal, it's simply down to personal interpretation of what is deemed acceptable or not.

    If the Catholic Church defines a Catholic marriage as being between a man and a woman, that's all well and good, but it should have no relevance to anyone outside of the Catholic Church. If you disagree with that, then perhaps Catholicism isn't the religion for you. Marriages should be identical to civil partnerships in the eyes of the state.
    Cabaal wrote: »
    They don't have to provide a marriage ceremony, nobody ever said they did.

    But they appose the state making gay marriage legal, all because they want to believe to themselves that "marriage" is exclusively a religious thing and is between and mammy and a daddy only.

    Of course marriage has existed long before jesus was invented as have gay relationships and unions/marriages.

    That's why I specified Catholic marriage.


  • #1578
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    A narrow focus on sex, meat of fridays and drinking on good friday is just that - narrow.
    I agree it's narrow. Still, that's what the RCC wants you to believe.

    To pick one from your list though - music -- the RCC has issued instructions that the usual wedding music (Wagner's and Mendelssohn's usual stuff) are not to be used. Do you agree with that?


  • #1579
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    robindch wrote: »
    I agree it's narrow. Still, that's what the RCC wants you to believe.

    To pick one from your list though - music -- the RCC has issued instructions that the usual wedding music (Wagner's and Mendelssohn's usual stuff) are not to be used. Do you agree with that?

    I haven't seen that guidance. I do agree that, for the most part, secular music should not replace hymns and musical settings for prayers.


  • #1580
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I haven't seen that guidance. I do agree that, for the most part, secular music should not replace hymns and musical settings for prayers.

    would you agree that secular music should not replace hymns and musical settings for prayers at the expense of loosing marriages in the catholic church?

    So priest denies request to play Beatles music or whatever, so couple think sod this we'll do a none church wedding and have a say in the music we can play.

    After all, a wedding is about the couple and celebrating them.


  • #1581
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    Cabaal wrote: »
    After all, a wedding is about the couple and celebrating them.
    Oh no, it's a holy sacrament, we'll be having none of this debauchery with people drinking and having a good time, forsaking Our Lord like that, how dare they!!!

    Go to a wedding reception and instead of a speech about the people, thank God and say Hail Mary, that'll really rouse the crowd.


    anyway...

    Don't get me wrong, I am not one of these militant athiest types who shoot religious people from the skies, but when it comes to posters such as the above who are intensely stubborn and not willing to listen to anything, there comes a point...


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  • #1582
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Cydoniac wrote: »

    Don't get me wrong, I am not one of these militant athiest types who shoot religious people from the skies, but when it comes to posters such as the above who are intensely stubborn and not willing to listen to anything, there comes a point...

    I just can't believe that anyone doubts that there are 1 million people at mass on any given weekend. That baffles me to be honest.


  • #1583
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I just can't believe that anyone doubts that there are 1 million people at mass on any given weekend. That baffles me to be honest.

    and I just can't believe that people exist that would deny their fellow human beings equal rights and respect,

    Far more important issue and yet I don't see you bleating on about that, nice to see your priority's in order.
    :rolleyes:


  • #1584
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I just can't believe that anyone doubts that there are 1 million people at mass on any given weekend. That baffles me to be honest.

    Oh believe me, we know...you only said it about 5 times verbatim so far.

    broken%20record.jpg


  • #1585
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Cydoniac wrote: »
    Oh believe me, we know...you only said it about 5 times verbatim so far.

    broken%20record.jpg

    I'm like a voice crying in the wilderness :P


  • #1586
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Cabaal wrote: »
    wow, your response is to belittle and mock the subject matter of how the sex abuse scandals have affected who considers themselves catholic? Seriously?
    Wow! I did nothing of the sort.

    Believe me, I would be the last person to make light of sexual abuse on children. I have witnessed the devastating and long-term effects it has on the victim. My mother was abused as a child at home.

    It was only when she was taken in by a Catholic orphanage that the abuse stopped. Her only happy childhood memories come from that children's home. Imagine that! Some good coming from religion... In fact, later in life there were attempts made by third-parties to persuade her to make a false allegation against the convent with promises of large payouts.

    What I was making light of was your painfully transparent attempts at diverting your embarrasment with mud-slinging.


  • #1587
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Wow! I did nothing of the sort.

    Believe me, I would be the last person to make light of sexual abuse on children. I have witnessed the devastating and long-term effects it has on the victim. My mother was abused as a child at home.

    It was only when she was taken in by a Catholic orphanage that the abuse stopped. Her only happy childhood memories come from that children's home. Imagine that! Some good coming from religion... In fact, later in life there were attempts made by third-parties to persuade her to make a false allegation against the convent with promises of large payouts.

    What I was making light of was your painfully transparent attempts at diverting your embarrasment with mud-slinging.


    Embarrassment from what exactly?
    I asked for proof, nothing more.

    If you think asking for proof makes somebody embarrassed then you must get very embarrassed every day if your life. Perhaps you might want to re-read my posts as its clear you've read them wrong.

    As for your attempt to deflect the sex abuse scandal and the Vatican's extremely pathetic attempts in handling it, is it any wounder that people leave the church in droves with people like yourself as members of it.

    I've met people like you time and time again, you refuse to deal with the actual issue, acknowledge it and condemn the Vatican for its continued refusal to compensate victims and release records and instead prefer to try and deflect from it using any means you can.

    The very fact that the Vatican sent representatives over to Ireland who told victims they were lieing and making things yep, yet the vatican had rules on moving the abusers around shows how sick and twisted the organization is.

    I suppose however its a case of monkey see, monkey do. The Vatican will do all it can to deflect from the issue so why should you be any different?


  • #1588
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I just can't believe that anyone doubts that there are 1 million people at mass on any given weekend. That baffles me to be honest.

    Using a combination of the 2011 census figures and the Iona institute's survey from the same year. I arrive at approximately 769,964 adults that attended mass within a week of the survey.


  • #1589
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Embarrassment from what exactly?
    I asked for proof, nothing more.
    I would have thought that this was clear. Your embarrassingly transparent non-sequiter.

    Cabaal wrote: »
    As for your attempt to deflect the sex abuse scandal and the Vatican's extremely pathetic attempts in handling it, is it any wounder that people leave the church in droves with people like yourself as members of it.

    I've met people like you time and time again, you refuse to deal with the actual issue, acknowledge it and condemn the Vatican for its continued refusal to compensate victims and release records and instead prefer to try and deflect from it using any means you can.

    The very fact that the Vatican sent representatives over to Ireland who told victims they were lieing and making things yep, yet the vatican had rules on moving the abusers around shows how sick and twisted the organization is.

    I suppose however its a case of monkey see, monkey do. The Vatican will do all it can to deflect from the issue so why should you be any different?

    This just gets funnier and funnier. So not only do you get to tell people who consider themselves Catholic that they aren't you also get to tell people who aren't Catholic that they are. Wouldn't it just be better if we gave you the 5 million to answer everyone's census for them? While I am happy to let you dig your own hole of prejudice I am surprised that your memory doesn't last longer than a month.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88077617&postcount=145


  • #1590
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    While I am happy to let you dig your own hole of prejudice I am surprised that your memory doesn't last longer than a month.
    Tone down your rhetoric or you'll be out on your ear again, BB.

    This is your final warning.


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  • #1591
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    gaynorvader wrote: »
    Using a combination of the 2011 census figures and the Iona institute's survey from the same year. I arrive at approximately 769,964 adults that attended mass within a week of the survey.
    To be fair, using the Iona Institute as a voice of authority is an even worse source than the ICBC. The sample group here is even smaller! You can't take 1000 people and equate it with a country.


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