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Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

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Comments

  • #1472
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Your help is not required.

    Oh, it very much is. You need to work on that bad habit of yours of pressing the quote button and then giving us the... benefit of your... thoughts on matters not relating to the quoted message. The quoted text is supposed to be for the convenience of the reader, not a mere starting point for stream-of-consciousness text, whether it be "I'm going to ignore all that 'blather', and ask something else entirely off-topic", or "why do you use that word incorrectly?" in reply to a message wherein they were using it correctly.


  • #1473
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    In post 1437 I asked this guy a question. 1455 I rephrased the same question. Could you confirm this or could you give your opinion on it being an "entirely different question" because I am not going to rephrase this a third time.

    Can we hold you to that last part? Because past form is very much otherwise (if there's even any "rephrasing" involved).

    Look, for the avoidance of all doubt, the point isn't whether you asked the same question in two different messages. The point is whether you paid any attention whatsoever to what happened in between. If you're simply going to say "well, I'm going to ignore everything you said, and ask my tendentious question over and over again until I get an answer I like", people are going to get a tad ticked off, and call you on it. Better to respond to what they actually say, not on what you'd rather they'd said that would have been more convenient to you.


  • #1474
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    gaynorvader wrote: »
    I guess the question is "90% of people identify as Catholc, but how many are actually practising Catholics?".

    That's certainly one question.

    I propose the Religion Police take a roll-call at masses and interview people.


  • #1475
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    That's certainly one question.

    I propose the Religion Police take a roll-call at masses and interview people.

    Well, if the survey conducted for the Bishops is any indication they will only need the one biro and a small notebook to record the names of the people at Mass.


  • #1476
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,552 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Well, if the survey conducted for the Bishops is any indication they will only need the one biro and a small notebook to record the names of the people at Mass.
    No no no, those surveys are only representative of the people surveyed, the field of statistics doesn't exist!


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  • #1477
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Well, if the survey conducted for the Bishops is any indication they will only need the one biro and a small notebook to record the names of the people at Mass.

    "Where one or two are gathered in my name...."


  • #1478
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    That's certainly one question.

    I propose the Religion Police take a roll-call at masses and interview people.

    An amusing thought! :D

    My point is that I think any reasonable person would agree that most, if not all, Catholics do not believe 100% of what the Catholic faith preaches. I have no real issue on a personal level with them calling themselves Catholic, but it becomes a problem when their doing so is used by the RCC to do things in their name.
    If you don't agree 100% with the Catholic doctrine, then I suggest making a sub-group within the Catholic faith. Much like how being a Catholic is a sub-group of being Christian.


    The census is a poor indication of religious beliefs, it's a very crude survey that's not even necessarily taken seriously or filled in by the actual intended person. Add to that the inherent bias of any survey and you're left with something that's hardly worth the paper it's printed on.
    In order to gather any meaningful data from surveys, you need to collate the data from several surveys written by several groups with opposing agendas.


  • #1479
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    "Where one or two are gathered in my name...."

    One or two being an apt description.


  • #1480
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    gaynorvader wrote: »
    An amusing thought! :D

    My point is........

    My "witty" line about religion police wasn't aimed at knocking the point you made btw. Your's is a 100% perfectly valid question. Just one (imho) that doesn't have a straightforward answer and certainly can't be measured using a tool as cumbersome as a census.

    gaynorvader wrote: »
    ....I think any reasonable person would agree that most, if not all, Catholics do not believe 100% of what the Catholic faith preaches.........

    Yeah, I'd agree. The number of saints who have lived holy lives is vanishingly small....and even many of those had "colourful" pasts. The beauty of the RCC is that even the most abject sinner (and I include myself in this) is welcome back if they have a change of heart...and still loved, even if they don't (that's the theory anyway).
    gaynorvader wrote: »
    ....I have no real issue on a personal level with them calling themselves Catholic, but it becomes a problem when their doing so is used by the RCC to do things in their name.

    I don't think the census figures are the primary motivators for the RCC in picking or fighting its battles. Nor the primary motivators for politicians. I don't think the RCC's view on the last abortion debate would have been any different if only 30% had ticked the "Catholic" box on the census. Nor do I think Enda Kenny consulted the Census figures before introducing the legislation and said, "Heh, 84%, you know what, I think we can win this."

    gaynorvader wrote: »
    If you don't agree 100% with the Catholic doctrine, then I suggest making a sub-group within the Catholic faith. Much like how being a Catholic is a sub-group of being Christian..

    Is this what we refer to as "a la carte" catholics? I can't see the RCC telling people that there are two "grades" of catholicism. Goes against christian values that everyone has the same "worth" as his neighbour. Even if he is a sinner.

    gaynorvader wrote: »
    The census is a poor indication of religious beliefs, it's a very crude survey that's not even necessarily taken seriously or filled in by the actual intended person. Add to that the inherent bias of any survey and you're left with something that's hardly worth the paper it's printed on.
    In order to gather any meaningful data from surveys, you need to collate the data from several surveys written by several groups with opposing agendas.

    Agree that it's quite a blunt instrument. But are you really suggesting that the CSO have an "agenda"????:eek:


  • #1481
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    One or two being an apt description.

    That's just wishful thinking on your part Bannasidhe. Makes you look a little silly. You and I well know that there are over a million people at Mass every weekend.


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  • #1482
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    That's just wishful thinking on your part Bannasidhe. Makes you look a little silly. You and I well know that there are over a million people at Mass every weekend.

    Have you got any evidence to prove that?


  • #1483
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    That's just wishful thinking on your part Bannasidhe. Makes you look a little silly. You and I well know that there are over a million people at Mass every weekend.

    Proof?

    Is this christian mass, FSM mass? or you just adding everything together just to make yourself feel warm and fuzzy inside?


  • #1484
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,771 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    That's just wishful thinking on your part Bannasidhe. Makes you look a little silly. You and I well know that there are over a million people at Mass every weekend.

    Over 1m.
    Population of Ireland = approx 4.6m.
    Population of Ireland who go to Mass = 22.22...% (say 25% for sake of argument)
    Population of Ireland marked as Roman Catholic in 2011 Census = 84.2%
    Population of Ireland marked as Roman Catholic in 2011 Census who actually go to Mass = 26.4%

    Even if over 1m Irish people go to Mass every weekend, that's not an impressive statistic.


  • #1485
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Have you got any evidence to prove that?

    According to the 2011 Census (Wikipedia) there were 3,861,335 catholics in the Republic of Ireland.

    According to this report (Practice and Belief amongst Roman Catholics in Ireland - by the Bishops Conference, academically led and funded by EU Framework grants) - Fig 1 shows that, in 2009/10, 42.1% of Irish catholics attended mass once per week and 6% attended more than once a week.

    So 48.1% of 3,861,335 is 1,857,302 people at least once a week.

    Now, even allowing a (HUGE) margin of error that's comfortably in excess of 1 million people at mass each week in the Republic alone.

    You should stick your head into churches in your area from time to time Bannasidhe. You might be surprised by the numbers there and the things being said.

    Edit: http://www.catholicbishops.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Practice-and-Belief-among-Catholics-in-the-Republic-of-Ireland.pdf


  • #1486
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Proof?

    Is this christian mass, FSM mass? or you just adding everything together just to make yourself feel warm and fuzzy inside?

    See my info above.

    Saying more than a million or so people go to mass every week shouldn't shock you. It's a pretty well known fact.


  • #1487
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Penncil Dick wrote: »
    Over 1m.
    Population of Ireland = approx 4.6m.
    Population of Ireland who go to Mass = 22.22...% (say 25% for sake of argument)
    Population of Ireland marked as Roman Catholic in 2011 Census = 84.2%
    Population of Ireland marked as Roman Catholic in 2011 Census who actually go to Mass = 26.4%

    Even if over 1m Irish people go to Mass every weekend, that's not an impressive statistic.

    Where did you get the 22.22% figure Penncil?

    Figures on here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Church_attendance of 30-35%. So that's about comfortably 1.16 million, even taking the lower figure, in the Republic.


  • #1488
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I Heart Internet, you seem very interested in just trying to prove your beliefs in relation to the deluded "faithful" people in Ireland.

    Are you as passionate about how sex abuse victims in the christian faith should be compensated and how as a whole the abuse scandal has been handled?


  • #1489
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Cabaal wrote: »
    I Heart Internet, you seem very interested in just trying to prove your beliefs in relation to the deluded "faithful" people in Ireland.

    Are you as passionate about how sex abuse victims in the christian faith should be compensated and how as a whole the abuse scandal has been handled?

    Poor form Cabaal. I give you the evidence you explicitely asked for and you suggest I'm only out to prove myself right. Really poor form. Expected better.


  • #1490
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    According to the 2011 Census (Wikipedia) there were 3,861,335 catholics in the Republic of Ireland.

    According to this report (Practice and Belief amongst Roman Catholics in Ireland - by the Bishops Conference, academically led and funded by EU Framework grants) - Fig 1 shows that, in 2009/10, 42.1% of Irish catholics attended mass once per week and 6% attended more than once a week.

    So 48.1% of 3,861,335 is 1,857,302 people at least once a week.

    Now, even allowing a (HUGE) margin of error that's comfortably in excess of 1 million people at mass each week in the Republic alone.

    You should stick your head into churches in your area from time to time Bannasidhe. You might be surprised by the numbers there and the things being said.

    Interesting that suddenly Practice and Belief amongst Roman Catholics in Ireland is acceptable when previously it was decried by 'your' side in this discussion.



    Tell me - does anyone actually count the number of people at Mass?
    Is there a breakdown of age profiles?

    Can you provide link which provides evidence that on a particular date (any date at all will do) x amount of people attended Mass - not wedding/funeral just an ordinary Mass?


  • #1491
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    {...}

    I don't think the census figures are the primary motivators for the RCC in picking or fighting its battles. Nor the primary motivators for politicians. I don't think the RCC's view on the last abortion debate would have been any different if only 30% had ticked the "Catholic" box on the census. Nor do I think Enda Kenny consulted the Census figures before introducing the legislation and said, "Heh, 84%, you know what, I think we can win this."

    I agree, but that wasn't my point. What I meant was, when someone questioned why it's okay to slander homosexuals, restrict businesses' operating hours, etc. we're often told that "this is a Catholic\Christian country". So the people ticking the census box are being used as justification for the restrictions of freedoms.
    I Heart Internet wrote:
    Is this what we refer to as "a la carte" catholics? I can't see the RCC telling people that there are two "grades" of catholicism. Goes against christian values that everyone has the same "worth" as his neighbour. Even if he is a sinner.

    When I say sub-groups, I'm not referring to differing "grades". Much the same way a Protestant is no better a Christian than a Catholic, a pro-contraception catholic would be no better a Catholic than an anti-contraception Catholic (though the groups would probably look down on one another, this happens at the moment anyway). As I have said before, it's inherently dishonest to label yourself something if you don't believe the tenets of what that label implies.



    I Heart Internet wrote:
    Agree that it's quite a blunt instrument. But are you really suggesting that the CSO have an "agenda"????:eek:

    Of course they do! It's probably predominantly to get the basics down, so they know how many Catholic schools should be in each area for example. But there's another problem with the census, if your mother fills in the census and is a devout Catholic, even if the rest of the household is not, she will probably tick the Catholic box for everyone in the house, leading to more justification for Catholic schools in that area.


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  • #1492
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,771 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Where did you get the 22.22% figure Penncil?

    Figures on here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Church_attendance of 30-35%. So that's about

    I was taking your figure of 1m. I rounded up to 25% to allow for "over" 1m.

    But okay, 35%. 35% of RCs in Ireland.

    35% of Roman Catholics who go to Mass at least once a week. That means 65% of the Roman Catholics in Ireland (not of the total population, 65% of the Roman Catholics) do not go to Mass once a week.

    Again, not an impressive statistic and only proves what we've all been saying. Even accounting for people who are ill/infirmed, working, on holidays... Many, many people who are marked down as Roman Catholic in the Census do not follow the practices of the religion they are marked down as having. Because for a lot of people, it's a cultural thing rather than a spiritual thing.


  • #1493
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Poor form Cabaal. I give you the evidence you explicitely asked for and you suggest I'm only out to prove myself right. Really poor form. Expected better.

    As I've said you seem to be awful passionate about this thread, but really only this thread for the most part. You do "appear" to avoid topics that are...how should i put it?...uncomfortable for your faith.

    Surely as a christian I would have thought you'd be passionate about wrong doing's and I'm just curious about how you believe the church should deal with such an important issue?

    After all, I think we can all agree that the Vatican releasing all its records, removing all sex abusing priests/bishops, the Vatican removal of all bishops/priests who helped cover up cases (hello Sean Brady) and compensation of all sex abuse victims is far far more important an issue then how many people go to mass or consider themselves roman catholic.

    Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think I've ever seen you post in this thread - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055853778

    As a christian and somebody who certainly appears to be passionate about their faith I'm very curious about your take on such a very important matter.

    You may not like this topic but it is none the less a topic which has impacted the number of people that call themselves catholic, I know people in their 20's and 80's who no longer consider themselves catholic due to how the whole sex abuse scandal has been handled.

    As one women told me, "I work with children in my job, I can't in good conscious have anything to do with an organization that has such disregard for the well fair of children and their refusal to be open about the level of abuse they allowed due to their constant refusal to release their records"


  • #1494
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Interesting that suddenly Practice and Belief amongst Roman Catholics in Ireland is acceptable when previously it was decried by 'your' side in this discussion.

    I don't believe I mentioned the report until now. Found it on the google machine.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Tell me - does anyone actually count the number of people at Mass?
    Is there a breakdown of age profiles?.

    I'm aware that this is done in England and Wales - at a diocese level anyway. Not aware of it ever been done here.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Can you provide link which provides evidence that on a particular date (any date at all will do) x amount of people attended Mass - not wedding/funeral just an ordinary Mass.

    No. See last point above. Are my calculations not robust enough? Even taking a low 30% figure for those attending once per week?


  • #1495
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Even taking a low 30% figure for those attending once per week?
    What's the point in going when they don't like or agree with what the priest is telling them to believe? And which they don't have a clue of anyway?


  • #1496
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,771 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    I believe someone on this forum mentioned before about there being one day per year the church do take a headcount to see how many people are there (likely someone counting people as they enter or leave the church). I don't know where the results of it are published though.


  • #1497
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Cabaal wrote: »
    You can see it as poor form all you want,

    However really you seem to be awful passionate about this thread, but really only this thread for the most part. You do "appear" to avoid topics that are...how should i put it?...uncomfortable for your faith.

    Surely as a christian I would have thought you'd be passionate about wrong doing's and I'm just curious about how you believe the church should deal with such an important issue?

    After all, I think we can all agree that the Vatican releasing all its records, removing all sex abusing priests/bishops, the Vatican removal of all bishops/priests who helped cover up cases (hello Sean Brady) and compensation of all sex abuse victims is far far more important an issue then how many people go to mass or consider themselves roman catholic.

    Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think I've ever seen you post in this thread - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055853778

    As a christian and somebody who certainly appears to be passionate about their faith I'm very curious about your take on some a very important matter.

    I post on forums I take an interest in. That is all.

    Your shifting of this debate to the child abuse tragedy is a very cumbersome way of derailing a conversation that you were proved to be mistaken.

    I have many, deeply held views on any number of things, including things to do with my faith and things to do with child abuse. I'm not going to roll them out at your command to distract from this thread.

    Over a million people go to mass every week in Rep of Ireland Cabaal. Lets just accept that and move on, without changing subjects.


  • #1498
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I don't believe I mentioned the report until now. Found it on the google machine.



    I'm aware that this is done in England and Wales - at a diocese level anyway. Not aware of it ever been done here.



    No. See last point above. Are my calculations not robust enough? Even taking a low 30% figure for those attending once per week?

    Did you read the whole report or just quote mine?

    So no would be the answer. As far as you are aware, despite making a definitive statement, no-one has ever counted the number of people who attended Mass in Ireland on a given day.

    Therefore your 1 million is a guesstimate.

    A guestimate that would indicate that out of population of over 4 million, in a country that is allegedly over 80% Catholic, approx 30% of that 80% perform one of the basic 'requirements'.

    Oh dear...that doesn't look very good for RCC now does it?


  • #1499
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I post on forums I take an interest in. That is all.

    Your shifting of this debate to the child abuse tragedy is a very cumbersome way of derailing a conversation that you were proved to be mistaken.

    I have many, deeply held views on any number of things, including things to do with my faith and things to do with child abuse. I'm not going to roll them out at your command to distract from this thread.
    .

    See my posts above,

    You may not like this topic but it is none the less a topic which has impacted the number of people that call themselves catholic, I know people in their 20's and 80's who no longer consider themselves catholic due to how the whole sex abuse scandal has been handled.

    As one women told me, "I work with children in my job, I can't in good conscious have anything to do with an organization that has such disregard for the well fair of children and their refusal to be open about the level of abuse they allowed due to their constant refusal to release their records"

    Like it or not, the sex abuse scandal does impact on the numbers you are quoting in this thread and also impacts people going to mass.


  • #1500
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Over a million people go to mass every week in Rep of Ireland


    Which means that over 3 million do not.

    You need to accept that and move on.


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  • #1501
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    robindch wrote: »
    What's the point in going when they don't like or agree with what the priest is telling them to believe? And which they don't have a clue of anyway?

    You'd have to ask them Robin. I go because I want to and it makes me happy. Why do you do things?


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