Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

GarIT · 09-01-2014 05:43PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Yes they do. Schools are funded by the state, the state represents everyone, therefore everyone owns the schools.

I think I agree with your other points but you are wrong here. Each school building has deeds like any other building, on those deeds is the name of a private owner, who could sell the school, knock it down or do whatever they wanted with it. The building is owned and in over 99% of cases not owned by the state.

However yes the staff are paid for by the state but that does not make the building state owned.

GarIT · 09-01-2014 05:45PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

But with operating costs funded almost entirely by the state. Couple that with the over a billion euro that the various church groups owe the state for the abuses, they "owners" on paper don't really have much of claim to the buildings or what goes on inside.

If I own a house but I have credit card debt I still own the house. If the owner of a school wanted they could just decide no more school here we are going to kick everyone out and nobody could stop them because the school is privately owned.

Qs · 09-01-2014 05:49PM

Well if you have a house and rent it to the government you can't tell them that they can't put immigrants in it. So why can the Church still decide what happens within state funded education?

Piliger · 09-01-2014 05:55PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Because that's what the thread is about? Its in the name even.

Yes but why does it matter ?

Brian Shanahan · 09-01-2014 05:57PM

flutered wrote: »

what about the so called spirit of christmas, the last census claimed that there are quite a number of christians in ireland, surely he could have mentioned the word christmas even in passing, are not 90% of the population entitled to that.

1) There is not 90% christianity in Ireland. When we look at the proper figures (ie those of statistical surveys which look at religion in more depth than yes/no, and don't have the bias of someone else being likely to be doing the filling out) we get findings which show the true figure to be at c.60% or so for general christian.
2) Christmas was originally a pagan festival, where's the acknowledgement of that?
3) Christmas is currently a secular festival, so it is right to acknowledge that.
4) Ireland is a secular country so Michael D is perfectly performing his constitutional role by not pandering to a particular cult*.
5) If you want religious reinforcement go to your priest. That's his job.

* What's the difference between a cult and a religion? In a cultic situation if you kill someone the law will charge you with murder.

Brian Shanahan · 09-01-2014 06:05PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Tell me exactly how a secular school would undermine the faith of its students.

It wouldn't, because to be honest most Irish students are functional agnostics (if not functional atheists).

Qs · 09-01-2014 06:06PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

5) If you want religious reinforcement go to your priest. That's his job.

Woah, woah, woah there. You don't expect 90% of people to actually go to a church every week do you?

Brian Shanahan · 09-01-2014 06:12PM

GarIT wrote: »

I think I agree with your other points but you are wrong here. Each school building has deeds like any other building, on those deeds is the name of a private owner, who could sell the school, knock it down or do whatever they wanted with it. The building is owned and in over 99% of cases not owned by the state.

Fine then, let the State ask the "owner" of every school in Ireland to repay all the money the State spent building and maintaining those schools. It'll come to a pretty penny in the case of the rcc, because they spent nada to build or maintain the schools they "own".

Brian Shanahan · 09-01-2014 06:13PM

Qs wrote: »

Woah, woah, woah there. You don't expect 90% of people to actually go to a church every week do you?

If they want to call themselves christian that's what their Fuhrers want.

maguic24 · 09-01-2014 06:16PM

AerynSun wrote: »

So by my count, from Census 2011 - we're talking about these numbers? Are all of these 'Christian' by accepted/agreed definition?

TOTAL POPULATION: 4,588,252

Roman Catholic: 3,861,335 (of all nationalities, not just Irish)
Church of Ireland [including Protestant] (which makes me wonder how the Census officials understood 'Protestant'): 129,039
Orthodox: 45,223
Presbyterian: 24,600
Apostolic or Pentecostal: 14,043
Methodist: 6,842
Jehovah's Witness (Christian if you ask them): 6,149
Lutheran: 5,683
Evangelical: 4,188
Baptist: 3,531
Latter Day Saints [Mormon] (also Christian by their own definition): 1,284
Quaker: 925
Brethren: 336 (I have no idea whether I should be counting them? Are these like the Masons?)

Lapsed Roman Catholic: 1,279 (sure now why do they have their own category on the census? Do we count them as Christians or do we count them as people with no religion?)

What about us pastafarians?? Which option do we choose?!? The injustice!

GarIT · 09-01-2014 06:17PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Fine then, let the State ask the "owner" of every school in Ireland to repay all the money the State spent building and maintaining those schools. It'll come to a pretty penny in the case of the rcc, because they spent nada to build or maintain the schools they "own".

The owner could just ask for rent so. I think this discussion is pointless and irrelevant to the main topic, I was just making the statement that on paper schools are privately owned. Other than the religion problems the agreement has worked fairly OK up until now.

GarIT · 09-01-2014 06:18PM

maguic24 wrote: »

What about us pastafarians?? Which option do we choose?!? The injustice!

Carbonara. Pastafarians aren't any Christian denomination though.

Mark Hamill · 09-01-2014 06:19PM

Piliger wrote: »

Yes but why does it matter ?

Because churches use the numbers of people mislabelling themselves to claim that they represent large proportions of the population, and therefore should get a say in various public policies. And they do get a say, hence we have clergy on the boards of things like schools and hospitals, which they have no business being anywhere near.

Mark Hamill · 09-01-2014 06:24PM

GarIT wrote: »

The owner could just ask for rent so. I think this discussion is pointless and irrelevant to the main topic, I was just making the statement that on paper schools are privately owned. Other than the religion problems the agreement has worked fairly OK up until now.

The building is largely irrelevant though. The building is just a location (a once-off cost), the schools are the facilities (like sports grounds and science labs), and teachers and the other operating necessities (eg electricity, heating, support staff), all funded over the long term by the state in the vast majority of cases. If a building was closed, all the rest would move and the school would go on, still state funded by everyone, but still discriminating in favour of the churches.

GarIT · 09-01-2014 06:30PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The building is largely irrelevant though. The building is just a location (a once-off cost), the schools are the facilities (like sports grounds and science labs), and teachers and the other operating necessities (eg electricity, heating, support staff), all funded over the long term by the state in the vast majority of cases. If a building was closed, all the rest would move and the school would go on, still state funded by everyone, but still discriminating in favour of the churches.

I know, I agree with you, but what I'm saying is you can't declare something state owned because it is like it is state owned. And because it is not state owned the church has a power over the school that they shouldn't.

maguic24 · 09-01-2014 06:33PM

GarIT wrote: »

Carbonara. Pastafarians aren't any Christian denomination though.

Ahh it's just Christian denominations. I haven't properly read through to the thread. I still bet it's not on it as a recognised religion.

Pastafarianism is gaining ground though....soon maybe...it will. Just incase you haven't, have a look at the linky below.....Hilarious!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14135523

Mark Hamill · 09-01-2014 06:37PM

GarIT wrote: »

I know, I agree with you, but what I'm saying is you can't declare something state owned because it is like it is state owned. And because it is not state owned the church has a power over the school that they shouldn't.

Is the churches power always based on it being on its own land though? Is every school in the country on church owned land? Are all hospitals on church owned land? Haven't a lot of churches been putting their schools into trusts, so that the state can't take them in lieu of compensation?

GarIT · 09-01-2014 06:47PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Is the churches power always based on it being on its own land though? Is every school in the country on church owned land? Are all hospitals on church owned land? Haven't a lot of churches been putting their schools into trusts, so that the state can't take them in lieu of compensation?

I don't really know about that to be honest. Pretty much every school pre 2000, is on some religious groups land.

Bannasidhe · 09-01-2014 07:24PM

GarIT wrote: »

I don't really know about that to be honest. Pretty much every school pre 2000, is on some religious groups land.

Have you a link for that?

I fail to see how the National Schools built from the 1830s onwards - some of which are still in use btw - are on 'church' land.

GarIT · 09-01-2014 07:27PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Have you a link for that?

I fail to see how the National Schools built from the 1830s onwards - some of which are still in use btw - are on 'church' land.

No I don't but as I said pretty much all, there will obviously be exceptions.

Bannasidhe · 09-01-2014 07:48PM

GarIT wrote: »

No I don't but as I said pretty much all, there will obviously be exceptions.

A National School in every townland at the least and in many cases in every parish built and paid for by the, then Westminster, government is a lot of exceptions

Piliger · 09-01-2014 08:07PM

Jeez I don't give a sh1t who owns the land or the building - what a waste of time. What matters is that the schools are controlled by the RCC and paid for by the State.

Sacksian · 09-01-2014 08:37PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

A National School in every townland at the least and in many cases in every parish built and paid for by the, then Westminster, government is a lot of exceptions

I'm not sure if I'm coming at this at cross-purposes or picked up the discussion wrong but, according to the link below, I think GarIT is correct about national school ownership:

The vast majority of primary schools are owned by the religious denominations. There are deeds of trust signed by the owners, which ensure that the school will continue to be used as such...About 60 schools are vested in the Minister for Finance - they date from before independence and no new schools will come into this category. The State itself has not directly established any new schools.

AND

Funding of schools

Traditionally, the site for national schools was provided locally - either directly by the patron or as a result of local fundraising. There was also a local contribution to the building costs and the running costs. ...

Cost of site - new national schools

The State pays the full cost of the site. The patron still has the choice of funding the site cost. If the State pays, then the State owns the school building and leases it to the patron under a lease or a deed of trust. If the patron pays, the patron owns the school. If the State pays, it does not change who the patron is.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/going_to_primary_school/ownership_of_primary_schools.html

sorry Piliger for taking it further off-topic!

Bannasidhe · 09-01-2014 08:57PM

Sacksian wrote: »

I'm not sure if I'm coming at this at cross-purposes or picked up the discussion wrong but, according to the link below, I think GarIT is correct about national school ownership:

AND

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/going_to_primary_school/ownership_of_primary_schools.html

sorry Piliger for taking it further off-topic!

I am disputing the number of schools that were originally paid for by the RCC and were built on land belonging to the Church by pointing out that a large scale school building programme was instigated by Westminster in the 1830s - these were neither paid for by any church or on church owned land.

What had occurred by the late 1860s is that the majority of these publically owned/publically paid for schools came under church patronage - usually the RCC. These true National Schools were designed to be non-sectarian but ended up being patronised by the local bishop.

What happened to those schools?
Who owns them?

If they are not owned by the church or on church lands - why should the local PP be on the board or the local bishop the patron? Why not the local Rabbi?

There is, after all, no justification for any religion to have a say in the running of a state funded school, paid for the previous state and on State owned land. The simple fact is the State abdicated its responsibility for education while agreeing to shoulder the cost.

Shure since Irish = Catholic what's the harm like?

Piliger · 09-01-2014 09:03PM

Am I wrong or is there some kind of process going on right now where primary school parents are voting whether to remove their schools from control of the local RCC ? Or did I just dream this ?

alaimacerc · 09-01-2014 11:27PM

Piliger wrote: »

Am I wrong or is there some kind of process going on right now where primary school parents are voting whether to remove their schools from control of the local RCC ? Or did I just dream this ?

My understanding is that there is, but it's very ad hoc. Either when a new school is being opened, or several RC schools are being smooshed together to make good one, things like this occur. In the later case, there seems to have to be some sort of prior stitchup between the minister and the local patron, as I understand it.

alaimacerc · 10-01-2014 12:47AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

There are NO secular schools funded by the State so Person A does NOT have a bloody choice.

You saying that ET and VEC schools aren't "secular"? Or are you saying that for some people there's no such choice? (Due to lack or oversubscription thereof.)

Bannasidhe · 10-01-2014 01:00AM

alaimacerc wrote: »

You saying that ET and VEC schools aren't "secular"? Or are you saying that for some people there's no such choice? (Due to lack or oversubscription thereof.)

Submission to the Irish Human Rights Commission, Jan 2011.

'There are no secular schools in Ireland'

http://www.ihrc.ie/download/pdf/reledsub19.pdf pg 2

alaimacerc · 10-01-2014 01:01AM

Piliger wrote: »

While I agree with you totally about Christmas, why are so many people in this thread concerned with what is and what is not Catholic ? And what is and what is not other religion ?

As an Atheist I would have thought that the only concern we would have is who are theists and who are not theists ?

Catholicism is the 800 pound gorilla in the room. If the country were more pluralist, there might be more of a secular arrangement in order to make peaceable arrangements between the different sects, as in some other countries. (Or not, of course, as in certain other jurisdictions...) If the Catholic Atheists and the No Religion Atheists were counted together, Catholicism and atheism would very clearly be the largest two "sections of society". It's RCC schools that'll have to be "repatroned" if provision is to be made for more secular arrangements. (And down the way, perhaps the same thing will happen with the "voluntary hospitals", which is just as unsatisfactory an arrangement as far as a fair and accountable way to spend money.)

"Miscellaneous theists" really aren't the isue. (Any more than are deists, scientologists, spiritualists, or many Buddhists, just due to having "not being atheists" in common.)

Piliger · 10-01-2014 01:07AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

There are NO secular schools funded by the State so Person A does NOT have a bloody choice.

The State will NOT fund schools that do not have a religious ethos of some form or another.

What about the multi denominational schools ? such as Dalkey School Project National School ?

Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

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