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Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

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Comments

  • #362
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Piliger wrote: »
    Exactly. Having a legal right doesn't make it right.

    But it does mean they have "a right".


  • #363
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    old hippy wrote: »
    Fixed this for you

    Old Hippy, you may not like that religious communities have a right to maintain an ethos in their schools but it is a fact. You can block your ears and wish it weren't so all you want, but it's a legal certainty.


  • #364
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Old Hippy, you may not like that religious communities have a right to maintain an ethos in their schools but it is a fact. You can block your ears and wish it weren't so all you want, but it's a legal certainty.

    It's an indoctrination of impresionable young minds.


  • #365
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    old hippy wrote: »
    It's an indoctrination of impresionable young minds.

    It is Child Abuse, that is what it is.


  • #366
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    old hippy wrote: »
    It's an indoctrination of impresionable young minds.

    But you agree that religious communities have a legal right to maintain the ethos of their schools (the point we were debating)? Yes?


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  • #367
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,196 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Why does the Church need to have a stranglehold on schools? Why do those of minority faiths (or none at all) have to get f*cked over?

    Tell me exactly how a secular school would undermine the faith of its students.


  • #368
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Why does the Church need to have a stranglehold on schools?
    Because the church needs to infect impressionable minds with religious rubbish before kids grow up.
    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Tell me exactly how a secular school would undermine the faith of its students.
    It wouldn't undermine, per se, but it would fail to indoctrinate which amounts, in the long run, to much the same thing.


  • #369
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I really don't think that's the case. Roman Catholic children attending Roman Catholic schools are being educated to believe in Roman Catholicism....but to suggest that they are being thought that Irish = Roman Catholic is quite insulting. That RCC schools are somehow havens of racism when, in fact, they are, in many cases the most diverse institutions in many communities.

    What is insulting is that it is happening.






    That's just not true. The Constitution enshrines the right of people to educate their children as they see fit and for religious communities to operate institutions (inc schools).

    Where is the 'right' of people to have their children not educated in any religion or be surrounded by the iconography of religion or excluded from group activities during school hours because those are religiously themed?

    And no - there is no Right to educate 'as they see fit' - there are set criteria and standards which must be met.


    Wrong (that's a very common mistake though!). Ireland has approxiamtely 6 (SIX) "State Schools". Other schools, such as those operated by the RCC are private institutions (which attract public funding) - they are not "State Schools". They are not in flagrant breach of anything.

    Nice attempt at a spin but it just won't work.

    Don't take my word for it. Take Áine Hyland's - the foremost expert in Education in Ireland.
    There are currently about three thousand primary (national) schools in Ireland. Over 95% are under the patronage of the Roman Catholic Church; about 3% are under the patronage of the Church of Ireland; a very small number of schools are under the patronage of the Presbyterian or Methodist Churches; two schools are under Muslim patronage; there is one school under Jewish patronage; there are 39 schools in the Educate Together network; and about the same number under the patronage of An Foras Gaelscolaiochta. Special schools for intellectually and physically challenged children are under the patronage of a variety of organisations and bodies, including St. Michael’s House and other corporate bodies. The patronage structure of the Irish National School system is well summarised in the following quotation from the 1996 Report of the Constitution Review Group: All national schools are privately owned but publicly funded. In the case of the vast
    majority of schools, their owners are diocesan trustees     (Roman Catholic, Church of Ireland, trustees nominated by other churches, or in the case of multidenominational schools, a limited company or trust). Every national school is ultimately controlled by a patron. In the case of Catholic and Church of Ireland schools, the bishop is the patron; in the case of multi-denominational schools, the patron is a limited company. Most Gaelscoileanna are under the patronage of the local Catholic bishop but within the past three years Gaelscoileanna have set up their own patronage body which is a limited company and new Gaelscoileanna may now opt to be under the patronage of the local bishop or under the patronage of the new limited company.

    The role of the patron is also succinctly described in the same report:
    The patron of a national school is responsible for the nomination of the board of management of that school although parents and teachers have a role in electing representatives to the board – the names to be subject to the formal approval of the patron. The patron also plays an important role in setting up the selection board for a school principalship and for approving all appointments to a school. The patron also has the powers to assume management of a school in the event of unsatisfactory performance by a board of management.
    http://www.educatetogether.ie/sites/default/files/challenges_for_the_irish_education_system_for_the_next_generation_and_beyond.pdf

    What we have is a farce - all schools are technically 'private' yet funded by the State. The same State that decrees that education is compulsory on pain of imprisonment of parent/guardian - yet that State has failed to directly provide any schools while still paying for schools from taxpayers money.

    It privatised education, agreed to pick up the tab and allows an organisation which - even if we accept the census figures - has just over 80% of the population as members to control 95% of the National Schools.

    95% of Irish schools are directly controlled by the Roman Catholic Church.

    An organisation that has failed to pay the recompense due to its victims who were handed over to their 'private' laundries and 'private' industrial schools and 'private' orphanages and claims the State is actually culpable.

    Talk about having your biscuit and eating it.


  • #370
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Why does the Church need to have a stranglehold on schools? Why do those of minority faiths (or none at all) have to get f*cked over?

    Tell me exactly how a secular school would undermine the faith of its students.

    A church (or the Church) doesn't need anything of the sort. But religious communities have (in the past and right up to the present day) desired to provide schooling for their younger members that would educate them within a particular religious ethos. Nobody gets ****ed over because the same applies to everyone.

    A secular school would not undermine anyone's faith per se. It's just that a school with a religious ethos is preferred by many who share or support that ethos.


  • #371
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I've fixed this for you.:cool:

    Religious communities have the right to ensure a particular ethos is maintained in a school.

    Just because the religious bodies got the only "pass amach" when the Equality at Work legislation was being drafted, does not mean that there is not religious discrimination taking place.

    I'm sure Cork County Council, Tesco or Debenhams would be laughed out of court if they put forward bigotry as their own ethos that must be protected at all costs.

    In the Irish school system the religious bodies put forward the ethos card to protect themselves from their bigoted actions. To have our children front and centre to this is dispicable.
    As is anyone who supports this action!!!


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  • #372
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Could I humbly suggest you read the following obit from the NY Times which I think gives some (small)insight into how/why someone (with no ties to catholicism) might support the involvement of the RCC (amongst others) in the running of schools, albeit in a US context.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/28/nyregion/robert-w-wilson-hedge-fund-founder-and-philanthropist-dies-at-87.html?_r=0

    Could you point out one benefit of retaining Catholic school majority in Ireland? The ability to discriminate tends to be why Catholic schools in places such as England perform better than traditional public schools. The privileged tend to be those in attendance in such schools.


  • #373
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Like the label of Christmas?

    Exactly like the label of Christmas, which as shown before, means (amongst other things) a secular holiday.

    As you are back and seemed to miss it, can you respond to this post please.


  • #374
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Old Hippy, you may not like that religious communities have a right to maintain an ethos in their schools but it is a fact. You can block your ears and wish it weren't so all you want, but it's a legal certainty.

    It's not just their schools, everyone owns the schools.


  • #375
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    What is insulting is that it is happening.

    It's not though.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Where is the 'right' of people to have their children not educated in any religion or be surrounded by the iconography of religion or excluded from group activities during school hours because those are religiously themed?.

    They have that right. We all have the same rights. But Person A's right to send their child to a secular school does not trump Person B's right to send their child to their community's school which has a religious ethos. Person A cannot demand the removal of an ethos/symbols because they are offended by them.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    And no - there is no Right to educate 'as they see fit' - there are set criteria and standards which must be met..

    True. "As they see fit" was sloppy.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Nice attempt at a spin but it just won't work.

    Don't take my word for it. Take Áine Hyland's - the foremost expert in Education in Ireland.

    It's not spin. It's a fact. the exact figure is 9 by the way. There are 9 State Schools in Ireland. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/going_to_primary_school/ownership_of_primary_schools.html

    I'm not sure what you think Aine Hyland is saying, but she seems to be saying exactly what I said - most schools in Ireland are privately owned with public funding /= State Schools.


  • #376
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    A church (or the Church) doesn't need anything of the sort. But religious communities have (in the past and right up to the present day) desired to provide schooling for their younger members that would educate them within a particular religious ethos. Nobody gets ****ed over because the same applies to everyone.

    A secular school would not undermine anyone's faith per se. It's just that a school with a religious ethos is preferred by many who share or support that ethos.

    It is currently impossible to have a secular school which receives State funding.

    Hardly a level playing field now is it?

    Citizens of Ireland are denied a choice when it comes to educating their children.

    In case you missed it - 95% of Irish Schools are controlled by the Roman Catholic Church.

    Explain Why.


  • #377
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    robindch wrote: »
    Because the church needs to infect impressionable minds with religious rubbish before kids grow up.

    I attended christian/religious schools , All the teachings of the bible made me make a balanced choice away from religion. Its not all that bad! At least not for me


  • #378
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    It's not just their schools, everyone owns the schools.

    No they don't.


  • #379
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    In case you missed it - 95% of Irish Schools are controlled by the Roman Catholic Church.

    Explain Why.

    Because RCC communities founded and run 95% of the schools in Ireland.

    .....wait, is this a trick question?


  • #380
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,179 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    No they don't.
    The state pays for the buildings and staff, it's not unreasonable that all taxpayers kids should have equal access to education in their locality.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #381
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Exactly like the label of Christmas, which as shown before, means (amongst other things) a secular holiday.

    As you are back and seemed to miss it, can you respond to this post please.

    While I agree with you totally about Christmas, why are so many people in this thread concerned with what is and what is not Catholic ? And what is and what is not other religion ?

    As an Atheist I would have thought that the only concern we would have is who are theists and who are not theists ?


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  • #382
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    It's not though.



    They have that right. We all have the same rights. But Person A's right to send their child to a secular school does not trump Person B's right to send their child to their community's school which has a religious ethos. Person A cannot demand the removal of an ethos/symbols because they are offended by them.



    True. "As they see fit" was sloppy.



    It's not spin. It's a fact. the exact figure is 9 by the way. There are 9 State Schools in Ireland. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/going_to_primary_school/ownership_of_primary_schools.html

    I'm not sure what you think Aine Hyland is saying, but she seems to be saying exactly what I said - most schools in Ireland are privately owned with public funding /= State Schools.

    Sweetest divine.

    There are NO secular schools funded by the State so Person A does NOT have a bloody choice.

    The State will NOT fund schools that do not have a religious ethos of some form or another.

    So you can blather on about choice and secular schools all you want but the fact remains - the State is failing to provide secular schools so your references to choice are void because there is no feckin choice.


  • #383
    GarIT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,641 ✭✭✭GarIT


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    It's not just their schools, everyone owns the schools.

    Unfortunately in Ireland all schools are privately owned.

    IMO schools that do not give equal time to each religion or charge a fee should not get any state funding. A school that is not open to the public should not get a cent from the taxpayer.


  • #384
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    Could you point out one benefit of retaining Catholic school majority in Ireland?

    It ensures that catholic parents who want to educate their children in schools with a catholic ethos can do so, as it their right. Just becasue this is not advantageous to you does not mean it isn't to others.
    Corkfeen wrote: »
    The ability to discriminate tends to be why Catholic schools in places such as England perform better than traditional public schools. The privileged tend to be those in attendance in such schools.

    In the case of Catholic schools in England (which I have some experience of), you'll find that it tends to be catholic children (rather than "the privileged") who are in attendance, for the most part.

    They perform better becasue they are better school communitites.


  • #385
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Sweetest divine.

    There are NO secular schools funded by the State so Person A does NOT have a bloody choice.

    The State will NOT fund schools that do not have a religious ethos of some form or another.

    So you can blather on about choice and secular schools all you want but the fact remains - the State is failing to provide secular schools so your references to choice are void because there is no feckin choice.

    As long as we're clear, there are just a small handful of "State Schools" in Ireland.


  • #386
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Because RCC communities founded and run 95% of the schools in Ireland.

    .....wait, is this a trick question?

    Yes.

    It was designed to see if you know anything about the history of education in Ireland.

    You failed.


    1831 - National School system introduced in Ireland specifically designed to be non-sectarian.

    All those little National Schools dotted around the country were funded by Westminster. Not the RCC.

    Wonder where you got the idea the RCC paid for them? Could it have been in your State funded 'Catholic' School???


  • #387
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    It ensures that catholic parents who want to educate their children in schools with a catholic ethos can do so, as it their right. Just becasue this is not advantageous to you does not mean it isn't to others.



    In the case of Catholic schools in England (which I have some experience of), you'll find that it tends to be catholic children (rather than "the privileged") who are in attendance, for the most part.

    They perform better becasue they are better school communitites.
    Nope, there's less students in receipt of free school meals and for example you'd have less special needs students in such schools. Improved marks tend to be negated when you take these factors into account. Not because of being better school communities.
    www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN04405.pdf

    An expectation that all children in the state should be raised Catholic to get an education is fairly absurd and dictatorial.


  • #388
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    It ensures that catholic parents who want to educate their children in schools with a catholic ethos can do so, as it their right. Just becasue this is not advantageous to you does not mean it isn't to others.

    Pushing religion on children, especially through publicly funded institutions, is child abuse. It should be done away with and banned.


  • #389
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    No they don't.

    Yes they do. Schools are funded by the state, the state represents everyone, therefore everyone owns the schools.


  • #390
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Piliger wrote: »
    While I agree with you totally about Christmas, why are so many people in this thread concerned with what is and what is not Catholic ?

    Because that's what the thread is about? Its in the name even.


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  • #391
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    GarIT wrote: »
    Unfortunately in Ireland all schools are privately owned.

    But with operating costs funded almost entirely by the state. Couple that with the over a billion euro that the various church groups owe the state for the abuses, they "owners" on paper don't really have much of claim to the buildings or what goes on inside.


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