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I need feminism because...

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Comments

  • #572
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I agree that sentencing in this country is an utter disgrace when it comes to violent crimes, but I think it applies across the board. This particular case I don't see as a feminist issue at all though.

    I would agree with Niall, that certainly remorse and the man's psychiatric state has to be taken into account, but it must have been so difficult for that poor woman to watch her attacker walk free :(


  • #573
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    DMR1861 wrote: »
    Have to say I have some pity for this man. He obviously has serious mental health issues and has been let down by the state.

    Doesn't excuse what he did though.

    Feel a bit more pity for the person repeatedly hit across the head with a metal bar myself.

    It doesn't make sense to me that people commit violent assaults and don't serve any time for them.


  • #574
    Woodward
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 219 ✭✭Woodward


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    I'm not saying that men don't initiate (and suffer) the majority of violent crime.
    What I am saying is that:

    Male on Male violent crime : sentenced too lightly
    Male on Female violent crime : sentenced too lightly
    Female on Female violent crime : sentenced too lightly
    Female on Male violent crime: sentenced too lightly

    Each of these has very different rates but they all share they the fact that the impact on their victims is not taken into account enough its not a gender issue its an issue with sentencing for nearly every type of violent crime in Ireland

    One major problem with the justice system is that many of these crimes arent sentenced at all, in particular female on male violence. A lot of time these incidents are reported they are just let off with a warning


  • #575
    iwantmydinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    To me, it's another case where the victim was left without any semblance of justice.

    Sentencing in Ireland needs major, major overhaul, and I also think judicial review needs to be sharpened in a big way.

    I'm still processing the VAW aspect.


  • #576
    iwantmydinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    Woodward wrote: »
    One major problem with the justice system is that many of these crimes arent sentenced at all, in particular female on male violence. A lot of time these incidents are reported they are just let off with a warning

    And you have the stats to back this up?


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  • #577
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,588 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Woodward wrote: »
    One major problem with the justice system is that many of these crimes arent sentenced at all, in particular female on male violence. A lot of time these incidents are reported they are just let off with a warning

    Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion that female on male violence is under-prosecuted relative to other violent crime scenarios? It sounds like anecdotal hearsay otherwise.

    Roughly what percentage does "a lot of time" translate to? How does that compare to similar countries? If you're going to give any serious critique of the Irish justice system, it's fairly necessary that these questions are addressed.


  • #578
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Partner's elderly relative died from heart attack after he was beaten with metal bars by three men. He and his brother had also other severe injuries. One of the spent a year in jail, the other two go a year or two suspended. So no this is nothing new or out of the norm.

    In this case I think perpetrator more needs psychiatric help. I'm not saying it's right but if you have overcrowded prisons full of nastier people, there is a chance he'll come out worse than he was when going in.


  • #579
    Woodward
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 219 ✭✭Woodward


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion that female on male violence is under-prosecuted relative to other violent crime scenarios? It sounds like anecdotal hearsay otherwise.

    Roughly what percentage does "a lot of time" translate to? How does that compare to similar countries? If you're going to give any serious critique of the Irish justice system, it's fairly necessary that these questions are addressed.


    There is an abundance of evidence re domestic violence studies and the social attitudes are ubiquitous. Take for example women slapping men in the face or throwing drinks over them. This is seen as acceptable by most people and rarely is the woman ejected from the premises when this happens in nightclubs. I a man did this the repercussions would be much harsher


  • #580
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mod

    woodward, please bear in mind the forum you are posting in. Please familiarise yourself with the Ladies Lounge charter and particularly take into account the fact that we do not allow whataboutery here.

    Thank you.


  • #581
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,588 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Woodward wrote: »
    There is an abundance of evidence re domestic violence studies and the social attitudes are ubiquitous.

    I didn't ask "is there any evidence?", I asked "do you have any evidence?". The onus of providing proof always lies with the person making a claim. Surely if there's such a great abundance of evidence available then you'll be able to provide a sample of that evidence? If you can't provide some statistics to support your claim, then your claim remains purely anecdotal unfortunately.

    Attitudes that are apparently socially ubiquitous, such as those that you mentioned, have little or no relevance in how crimes are prosecuted in Ireland, which is the issue we're currently discussing.


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  • #582
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,219 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Woodward wrote: »
    There is an abundance of evidence re domestic violence studies and the social attitudes are ubiquitous. Take for example women slapping men in the face or throwing drinks over them. This is seen as acceptable by most people and rarely is the woman ejected from the premises when this happens in nightclubs. I a man did this the repercussions would be much harsher

    I know of exactly zero people who would consider that acceptable behaviour.


  • #583
    Dolbert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,154 ✭✭✭Dolbert


    Woodward wrote: »
    There is an abundance of evidence re domestic violence studies and the social attitudes are ubiquitous. Take for example women slapping men in the face or throwing drinks over them. This is seen as acceptable by most people and rarely is the woman ejected from the premises when this happens in nightclubs. I a man did this the repercussions would be much harsher

    Funny you should say that, I've been grabbed by the hair, groped, ass slapped etc by men in nightclubs and had bouncers laugh at me and friends tell me to lighten up and that it's only a bit of fun. Swings and roundabouts eh :rolleyes:


  • #584
    iwantmydinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    I need feminism because the entire discussion in this article is about the effect a harrowing sexual assault has had on the *perpetrator* and his family

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1127/489432-anthony-lyons/

    He was kicked out of his golf club, poor thing.

    *seethes*


  • #585
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,588 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    iwantmydinner wrote: »
    I need feminism because the entire discussion in this article is about the effect a harrowing sexual assault has had on the *perpetrator* and his family

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1127/489432-anthony-lyons/

    He was kicked out of his golf club, poor thing.

    *seethes*

    Whatever about the treatment of the perpetrator, the treatment of his family as mentioned in the article is completely disgusting and completely unfair. It has to be realised that they're innocent victims here along with the woman who was attacked.
    "He said Lyons' family, including his young son, aged ten, had been subjected to a campaign of harassment by a local man and a "supportive network" of taxi drivers."

    What the hell is wrong with some people? :mad:


  • #586
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,219 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    What the hell is wrong with some people? :mad:

    According to that article they've had to leave their home and live in London because of the harassment. So he can also count his own wife and children among his victims, as they have surely paid a price for his crime.

    That is shameful behaviour, as if a ten year old little boy is in anyway responsible for his fathers behaviour. The behaviour of some 'journalists' is abhorrent.


  • #587
    iwantmydinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    Whatever about the treatment of the perpetrator, the treatment of his family as mentioned in the article is completely disgusting and completely unfair. It has to be realised that they're innocent victims here along with the woman who was attacked.



    What the hell is wrong with some people? :mad:

    I agree with you that his family are innocent. But this article has completely, spectacularly, excluded any mention of the victim's ordeal and that of her family's. It is atrocious journalism. Why would any decent person include a reference to the fact that he's been kicked out of his golf club?!?! It's appalling.


  • #588
    iwantmydinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    Candie wrote: »
    ...he can also count his own wife and children among his victims, as they have surely paid a price for his crime.

    +1,000


  • #589
    LenaClaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭LenaClaire


    Because women still get paid less than men. The response to that is usually, "that is because women don't ask for raises" (which is true, statistically), but according to this study, women get penalized even if they ask for raises.

    Damned if you do... damned if you don't

    http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf


  • #590
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    iwantmydinner wrote: »
    I agree with you that his family are innocent. But this article has completely, spectacularly, excluded any mention of the victim's ordeal and that of her family's. It is atrocious journalism. Why would any decent person include a reference to the fact that he's been kicked out of his golf club?!?! It's appalling.

    Because it was part of a sentencing hearing or whatever it was called. Should they include just details of the actions you approve?

    This has nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with journalistic integrity. Personally I think too many details of accused and victims (in general, I'm not talking just about this case) are reported anyway. But if they get reported then you can't report just one side of argument.


  • #591
    Dolbert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,154 ✭✭✭Dolbert


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Should they include just details of the actions you approve?... But if they get reported then you can't report just one side of argument.

    But that's exactly the point. The article is almost entirely focused on the ordeal of the perpetrator.


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  • #592
    iwantmydinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Because it was part of a sentencing hearing or whatever it was called. Should they include just details of the actions you approve?

    This has nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with journalistic integrity. Personally I think too many details of accused and victims (in general, I'm not talking just about this case) are reported anyway. But if they get reported then you can't report just one side of argument.

    I fail to see how feminism doesn't have a role to play in ensuring that victims of sexual assault (who are overwhelmingly female) are treated with fairness and decency?!

    And the journalist literally did just report one side of the argument.


  • #593
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Dolbert wrote: »
    But that's exactly the point. The article is almost entirely focused on the ordeal of the perpetrator.

    Yes because it is about their submission for lenient sentencing. The submission from DPP is also mentioned. It is a report about current stuff in court and not history of the case.


  • #594
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Yes because it is about their submission for lenient sentencing. The submission from DPP is also mentioned and maybe. It is a report about current stuff in court and not history of the case.
    It is not the only instance where only the perpetrator's side of the story was covered. There was an entire episode of Liveline after the initial sentencing basically sympathising with him and what a great man he is.


  • #595
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    iwantmydinner wrote: »
    I fail to see how feminism doesn't have a role to play in ensuring that victims of sexual assault (who are overwhelmingly female) are treated with fairness and decency?!

    And the journalist literally did just report one side of the argument.

    Maybe you should complain to DPP for not mentioning the whole story. It's a report of current proceedings. Is it really that hard to understand different types of reporting.


  • #596
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    IvyTheTerrible wrote: »
    It is not the only instance where only the perpetrator's side of the story was covered. There was an entire episode of Liveline after the initial sentencing basically sympathising with him and what a great man he is.

    i don't listen to Liveline, so maybe you could educate me where it was mentioned in todays posts on the issue. Or do you expect me to comment on something I know nothing about?


  • #597
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    meeeeh wrote: »
    i don't listen to Liveline, so maybe you could educate me where it was mentioned in todays posts on the issue. Or do you expect me to comment on something I know nothing about?
    I was just saying that the perpetrator has had his side of the story and his woe-is-me line well covered but that there has been a lot less mention of the suffering caused to the victim.


  • #598
    iwantmydinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Maybe you should complain to DPP for not mentioning the whole story. It's a report of current proceedings. Is it really that hard to understand different types of reporting.

    Maybe you missed the bit where it said that both prosecution and defence counsel made statements today?

    FYI I was a journalist in a previous career; I understand more than most the different types of reporting, but thanks for being patronising about it.


  • #599
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    iwantmydinner wrote: »
    Maybe you missed the bit where it said that both prosecution and defence counsel made statements today?

    FYI I was a journalist in a previous career; I understand more than most the different types of reporting, but thanks for being patronising about it.

    Then you should be able to read the statement form DPP in the article.


  • #600
    iwantmydinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Then you should be able to read the statement form DPP in the article.

    You mean, the four lines at the bottom of the article? Wherein no mention was made of the victim's ordeal post assault?

    Come on like!


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  • #601
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    iwantmydinner wrote: »
    You mean, the four lines at the bottom of the article? Wherein no mention was made of the victim's ordeal post assault?

    Come on like!
    I give up.


This discussion has been closed.
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