I need feminism because...

iwantmydinner · 01-10-2013 10:43PM

Ambersky wrote: »

You mean you are asking us to imagine if things hadn't evolved in the way that they did, would they have evolved anyway?
Whats the point in that imaginary scenario?
Rape incest and child abuse centers evolved as they did with a large part of it from the womens movement. Why try to detract from this with some other imaginary situation.
Really there is no point to this thread. Anyone who says they need feminism for anything will be immediately jumped on to defend their position.
I need feminism but this is not where I find anyone able to talk about it.

We're here alright!

Woodward · 01-10-2013 10:46PM

YumCha wrote: »

Why are you deliberately ignoring the sentence above that?

I am not. The piece says that it wishes to end sexual violence against men and women and violence against women. It makes the distinction between sexual violence which it opposes for both sexes, and non sexual violence, which it opposes for women

Ambersky · 01-10-2013 10:52PM

I know there are feminist here iwantmydinner

Hi!
Its just hard to talk about feminism here, defend and explain it yes there is plenty of space for that and the same questions stereotypes and accusations will keep coming over and over.
Like here we are again feminism only works for women and girls and boys but what about the men.
Sigh! There are only so many times you can answer that question. So here is a picture.

A breakdown of the gender of callers and the nature of their call. Image: Dublin Rape Crisis Centre

http://www.thejournal.ie/rape-crisis-centre-volunteering-sexual-assault-volunteers-dublin-1007745-Jul2013/

iwantmydinner · 01-10-2013 11:03PM

Ambersky wrote: »

its just hard to talk about feminism here, defend and explain it yes.

I know, but you're so articulate and well-informed, don't give up!

I thought of a reason why feminism is still needed today actually... Imagine if women's rights advocates just shut the hell up completely and permanently, all together, tomorrow.

I absolutely shudder to think of the consequences. Especially in developing countries.

YumCha · 01-10-2013 11:06PM

Woodward wrote: »

I am not. The piece says that it wishes to end sexual violence against men and women and violence against women. It makes the distinction between sexual violence which it opposes for both sexes, and non sexual violence, which it opposes for women

IMO you're just nit picking - they're clearly not advocating violence against men as you're stating.

Woodward · 01-10-2013 11:20PM

YumCha wrote: »

IMO you're just nit picking - they're clearly not advocating violence against men as you're stating.

Where did I state that they are advocating it? I merely pointed out that they specifically oppose violence against women and make no mention of (non sexual) violence against men which gives the impression that they consider it to be less important

YumCha · 01-10-2013 11:29PM

Woodward wrote: »

Where did I state that they are advocating it?

Well you did say this:

Woodward wrote: »

so violence against men is just fine then?

Woodward wrote: »

I merely pointed out that they specifically oppose violence against women and make no mention of (non sexual) violence against men which gives the impression that they consider it to be less important

Gives you that impression - I personally don't see how you could possibly derive this from their statement. And given that the discussion isn't going to get much further than that, I'm bowing out.

Femme_Fatale · 01-10-2013 11:37PM

Ambersky wrote: »

I need feminism but this is not where I find anyone able to talk about it.

Ah now - of course you can find people here in the Ladies' Lounge able to talk about feminism.

I totally agree there is a need for feminism in some regards, but I really don't agree feminism is what is needed for protecting children from sexual abuse. That's not to say feminists and feminist groups can't become involved in protecting children from sexual abuse, of course, but I don't understand how feminism is "needed" for such children to be protected.

Lyaiera · 02-10-2013 02:38AM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Ah now - of course you can find people here in the Ladies' Lounge able to talk about feminism.

I totally agree there is a need for feminism in some regards, but I really don't agree feminism is what is needed for protecting children from sexual abuse. That's not to say feminists and feminist groups can't become involved in protecting children from sexual abuse, of course, but I don't understand how feminism is "needed" for such children to be protected.

Of course it's not "needed." But what's wrong with feminism looking out for anyone or anything else?

I'm sure it's come up in many women's lives that they need to look after their children. I'm sure it's come up in many women's lives that their husband, boyfriend, brother, friend or father needs protecting or help. Why shouldn't a "movement" that puts things in a perspective of a majoritively oppressed group, that has needed help, fortune and determination seek to look after other people in need?

And of course this is talking about a "movement" here (much as that term is bollocks.) Why don't the unemployed groups look after the middle income families? The answer is they do. The unemployed groups look after people in poverty, many of which issues effect people on average and middle incomes.

IvyTheTerrible · 02-10-2013 06:34AM

Morag wrote: »

The HSE does not cover counseling pertaining to sexual abuse at all, they have teams that deal with childhood depression but not the direct cause, it gets left to CARI.

Do you really think that there is no connection what so ever between feminism and ending sexual abuse or services for the victims? wow ok then.

http://www.rcni.ie/about-us/values-and-history/#toggle-id-1

Maybe I'm being a bit dense but I don't see what that has to do with feminism particularly?

02-10-2013 08:16AM

I would come at this for a different perspective, in the 1970s Irish feminist campaigned for free dental care for pregnant women it sounds trivial but something like that was really important, why did they have to do that, because woman had very little say in society it was doubly so for poor women, poor women simply did not matter.

There is strand of thought that says all social change would have come about anyway as society progressed, every campaign for social change was pointless anti slavery etc. because it would have happened anyway. That just not true for something to change in society someone had to act that one person has to say this is wrong and campaign to do something about.

The biggest risk to women in regards to sexual violence is poverty so in a way you would be better off campaign to eliminate poverty if you wanted to decrease sexual violence against women.

Ambersky · 02-10-2013 10:01AM

The biggest risk to women in regards to sexual violence is poverty so in a way you would be better off campaign to eliminate poverty if you wanted to decrease sexual violence against women.

mariaalice maybe I am misunderstanding you. Are you saying sexual violence against women is an issue of poverty or a class issue?
Are you saying that societies that are better off financially have less sexual violence or that if men were not struggling financially they would not rape?
Because surely that is one of the things feminists have also worked for, getting recognition that it isnt just poor or working class women who are raped and sexually abused. Rape and sexual abuse seems to be a world wide phenomena crossing class and other boundaries but affected by all of them. Some of the richest countries in the world have astonishingly high incidents of sexual abuse and rape.

Rape and incest happen in the most well off families as well and sometimes it can be difficult for them to get recognition precisely because people think this cant happen in so called "good families".
Class does seem to affect victims of rape and incest differently, whether these assault actually happen more in one class group more than another I dont know.
Middle class women seem to do better in the area of reporting and in how they are treated by the justice system and in how they manage to cope with the difficulties of that system. Some studies say that more middle class women report and gain convictions. That doesnt mean middle class women are assaulted more frequently the issue of class is more complex than that.
It is suggested by some academics that Working class women can find it more difficult to be taken as credible wittnesses because of a social construct that is more likely to devalue working class sexualities as licentious excessive and immoral. Some people think poor people are more likely to simply get on with it and take it that sexual assault is just another factor in an unfair world. It is argued that male working class sexuality is also likely to be viewed as more animalistic and uncontrolled. Working class men are more likely to be convicted apparently but this also does not say that working class men are more likely to sexually assault or rape.

02-10-2013 10:08AM

Sexual violence can happen to anyone anywhere I am talking of the fact that living in poverty puts women and children at a greater risk of sexual violence.

Amirani · 02-10-2013 10:46AM

Woodward, please don't post in this thread again. 'Whataboutery' is prohibited in the forum charter, please make yourself familiar with this.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 02-10-2013 12:09PM

I don't really get it either.

Saying you need feminism because there are cases of child sexual abuse seems similar to saying we need movements against animal cruelty because there are cases of child sexual abuse in society. Or bringing it closer, we need men's rights movements be because there are cases of child sexual abuse in society.

I would really hope that society doesn't need feminism in order to see how twisted and barbaric child sexual abuse is. I wouldn't think that people that don't consider themselves feminists are wild savages.

YumCha · 02-10-2013 12:18PM

I need feminism because there is no "epidemic of false rape reports" or a violence against women "abuse industry" with a "perverse incentive to keep case loads high".

http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/the-group-that-believe-violence-against-women-is-a-conspiracy-20131001-2uqgc.html

Ambersky · 02-10-2013 03:29PM

Im not being disrespectful mariaalice

Sexual violence can happen to anyone anywhere I am talking of the fact that living in poverty puts women and children at a greater risk of sexual violence.

I don't understand in what way you think poverty puts women and children at a greater risk of sexual violence. In my previous post I outlined how sexual violence happens across all class boundaries but may affect the victims of poor working class and middle class people differently in the handling reporting and subsequent treatment differently. Im not opposed to your idea as such, although it seems to suggest I think, that working class or poor men rape more than middle class men, seeing as most rapes and sexual assault are committed by someone known or related to the victim. Is that what you are saying?

Morag · 02-10-2013 03:50PM

and there are feminist groups working on the issue of poverty
http://www.nwci.ie/news/2013/09/12/women-and-children-are-suffering-under-austerity/

But yes I beleive we would not have the services we have for victims of sexual abuse in this country if it wasn't for feminism and the women's movement and the issues needs to be worked on more so maybe it's time that those who id as feminist rolled up their sleeves and got stuck in as previous generations did.

By the way the Dublin Rape Crises Centre are having a Flag day Thursday 10th and Friday 11th and are looking for volunteers http://www.drcc.ie/campaigns-and-events/

02-10-2013 04:46PM

Ambersky wrote: »

Im not being disrespectful mariaalice
I don't understand in what way you think poverty puts women and children at a greater risk of sexual violence. In my previous post I outlined how sexual violence happens across all class boundaries but may affect the victims of poor working class and middle class people differently in the handling reporting and subsequent treatment differently. Im not opposed to your idea as such, although it seems to suggest I think, that working class or poor men rape more than middle class men, seeing as most rapes and sexual assault are committed by someone known or related to the victim. Is that what you are saying?

There are lot of studies that show a link between sexual violence and poverty.

For example there was an awful cast of an 8 year old girl in Yemen who was married off and died after being rape by her husband one of the reason she was married off at 8 and one of the reasons ( not the ONLY reason ) for child marriage is poverty the parents wanted to off load the cost of raising a child on to some one else because of poverty.

Economic improvements in society always improve the lives of woman.

clairefontaine · 02-10-2013 04:48PM

Morag wrote: »

and there are feminist groups working on the issue of poverty
http://www.nwci.ie/news/2013/09/12/women-and-children-are-suffering-under-austerity/

But yes I beleive we would not have the services we have for victims of sexual abuse in this country if it wasn't for feminism and the women's movement and the issues needs to be worked on more so maybe it's time that those who id as feminist rolled up their sleeves and got stuck in as previous generations did.

By the way the Dublin Rape Crises Centre are having a Flag day Thursday 10th and Friday 11th and are looking for volunteers http://www.drcc.ie/campaigns-and-events/

This harks back to something I said on another thread ages ago. CHILDCARE. The partisan divisive politics of feminism need to stop, and the idea of family needs to come to the forefront of popular philosophy.

Millicent · 02-10-2013 04:57PM

A lot of recent posters seem to be ignoring the fact that, by and large, sexual violence is a hugely gendered issue, especially when it comes to the perpetrators of sexual violence. Sexual violence is therefore very much a feminist issue. That's not to disregard the accounts of boys and men who have been abused or assaulted or to create an "us versus them" situation. But who is doing the abusing and why very much needs to be looked at and feminists have been instrumental in exploring that subject.

clairefontaine · 02-10-2013 04:59PM

Ambersky wrote: »

Im not being disrespectful mariaalice
I don't understand in what way you think poverty puts women and children at a greater risk of sexual violence. In my previous post I outlined how sexual violence happens across all class boundaries but may affect the victims of poor working class and middle class people differently in the handling reporting and subsequent treatment differently. Im not opposed to your idea as such, although it seems to suggest I think, that working class or poor men rape more than middle class men, seeing as most rapes and sexual assault are committed by someone known or related to the victim. Is that what you are saying?

Consider this town in Kansas. It had to repeal domestic violence laws because it could no longer afford them.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44868091/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/kansas-capital-city-repeals-domestic-violence-law/#.UkxRGcu9KSM

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/10/12/topeka-kansas-has-decriminalized-domestic-violence/

clairefontaine · 02-10-2013 05:04PM

Millicent wrote: »

A lot of recent posters seem to be ignoring the fact that, by and large, sexual violence is a hugely gendered issue, especially when it comes to the perpetrators of sexual violence. Sexual violence is therefore very much a feminist issue. That's not to disregard the accounts of boys and men who have been abused or assaulted or to create an "us versus them" situation. But who is doing the abusing and why very much needs to be looked at and feminists have been instrumental in exploring that subject.

Yes but feminism won't change that.

You know what will change that? Taking precautions and not feeling entitled to walk through the bowels of the South Bronx at 3am with your Starbucks smoothie, because feminists told you you have a right to do that without getting attacked.

You want to protect your kids? Research and talk to security consultants about the best way to do that, and don't let pie in the sky ideologies cloud your visions of reality, about a world that should be, rather than a world that is.

Millicent · 02-10-2013 05:06PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

Consider this town in Kansas. It had to repeal domestic violence laws because it could no longer afford them.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44868091/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/kansas-capital-city-repeals-domestic-violence-law/#.UkxRGcu9KSM

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/10/12/topeka-kansas-has-decriminalized-domestic-violence/

I think Ambersky's point is that wealth or lack thereof doesn't affect who experiences violence but that it may affect the aftermath in different ways. Which ties into cases not being prosecuted through lack of money. If the money was there, the aftermath would be different.

Millicent · 02-10-2013 05:08PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

Yes but feminism won't change that.

You know what will change that? Taking precautions and not feeling entitled to walk through the bowels of the South Bronx at 3am with your Starbucks smoothie, because feminists told you you have a right to do that without getting attacked.

You want to protect your kids? Research and talk to security consultants about the best way to do that, and don't let pie in the sky ideologies cloud your visions of reality, about a world that should be, rather than a world that is.

That's a reductio ad absurdum. No feminist is arguing for that. Rather, they'd just like rapists--who are usually known to the victim--to just stop raping.

Frito · 02-10-2013 05:45PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

You know what will change that? Taking precautions and not feeling entitled to walk through the bowels of the South Bronx at 3am with your Starbucks smoothie, because feminists told you you have a right to do that without getting attacked.

Those damn precautions again. I'm waiting for someone to argue people should carry around condoms in case they get raped, perhaps it might reduce the risk of pregnancy or STI.
I would be of the opinion that precautions can give a false sense of security, "if I do this and don't do that, I'll be ok". I think it's more helpful to encourage people to develop their risk assessing skills and management strategies rather than a list of prohibitions.

clairefontaine · 02-10-2013 05:52PM

Tobyb84 wrote: »

Great, but how do you make rapists stop?

I guess you write articles for the Irish Times asking their friends not to let them rape women?

hatrickpatrick · 02-10-2013 05:53PM

Millicent wrote: »

A lot of recent posters seem to be ignoring the fact that, by and large, sexual violence is a hugely gendered issue, especially when it comes to the perpetrators of sexual violence. Sexual violence is therefore very much a feminist issue. That's not to disregard the accounts of boys and men who have been abused or assaulted or to create an "us versus them" situation. But who is doing the abusing and why very much needs to be looked at and feminists have been instrumental in exploring that subject.

The issue a lot of people have with this is that the legislation to deal with it shouldn't be gendered at all, because no legislation should be wondered, or coloured, or anything else. Agree/disagree?

clairefontaine · 02-10-2013 05:54PM

Frito wrote: »

Those damn precautions again. I'm waiting for someone to argue people should carry around condoms in case they get raped, perhaps it might reduce the risk of pregnancy or STI.
I would be of the opinion that precautions can give a false sense of security, "if I do this and don't do that, I'll be ok". I think it's more helpful to encourage people to develop their risk assessing skills and management strategies rather than a list of prohibitions.

I would consider risk assessment as part of precautionary measures. But also if you are that worried of a threat.

Millicent · 02-10-2013 06:05PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The issue a lot of people have with this is that the legislation to deal with it shouldn't be gendered at all, because no legislation should be wondered, or coloured, or anything else. Agree/disagree?

Of course I agree. It would be silly not to. If you're referring to the Romeo and Juliet legislation, I and a lot of feminists disagree vehemently with it. That's not feminist legislation.

I need feminism because...

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