Getting the deposit back

nohatnoswim · 28-08-2009 8:32pm #1

Hi All,

Something I've always found difficult has been the way that the deposit comes back to me - the tennant - when I'm leaving.

From my point of view, the day I move out is the day I should get my deposit back. It's a "security" deposit. I'm totally fine with the landlord holding it while I'm a tennant.

On moving out, I'm confident that I've taken care of all the properties I've stayed in, and there are no issues with them.

Would anyone expect me to trot off into the sunset and wait for the landlord to decide they will give me my money back ?

I'd appreciate thoughts / comments on this as I'm about to get into this dance again very soon !

GerardKeating · 28-08-2009 11:56pm

nohatnoswim wrote: »

From my point of view, the day I move out is the day I should get my deposit back. It's a "security" deposit. I'm totally fine with the landlord holding it while I'm a tennant.

Yes, it is a security deposit and after you leave, the landlord will inspect the property to see if they is anything that needs to be sorted out, before he returns the deposit.

It is not unreasonable for his to do this after you vacant the property.

Agent J · 29-08-2009 12:19am

I'd consider within a week to be reasonable for the deposit to be returned.

Time has to be given to allow proper inspection and such of the place after you have gone.

nohatnoswim · 29-08-2009 10:30am

OK. So, what security do I have on my money ?

Assuming that the Landlord is straight up, then this is all cool.

If they are not, then what do I get if they start coming up with unreasonable reasons for deductions - just so they can keep some money.

As I said, I keep properties in excellent condition. I have nothing to worry about except for getting screwed, dishonestly, by a landlord.

What can I do if a landlord starts to invent deductions and gives me half or none of my deposit back ?

Cheers,

Agent J · 29-08-2009 11:27am

The same security you'd have if you expected it back on the day you'd move out.

I gotta ask. Are you expecting trouble from this landlord?

Ok, Here is how it works because i have had trouble with landlords and deposits myself before.

They decide to screw you over. I report them to the PRTB.
The PRTB asks "Has it been a month?" (As in that is what they expect a reasonable time to be)
I say yes.

They open a case and eventually i get it back and make the landlord look like an idiot.

MelonieHead · 29-08-2009 12:45pm

Agent J wrote: »

They open a case and eventually i get it back and make the landlord look like an idiot.

There you go OP. Give the landlord a deposit in good faith, keep the
property well maintained, if deposit is not returned to you, then one
month after leaving the property you can report your landlord and,
pending an investigation, you may eventually get your own money back.
Problem solved.

Unless you want access to your money before eventually + a month.
Like to help towards your deposit for a new place.

nohatnoswim wrote: »

What can I do if a landlord starts to invent deductions and gives me half or none of my deposit back ?

Very little it seems. There should be an agreement where if the landlord claims a lot of damages you should be able to get someone independant in to give you both a quote for fixing the damages.

This would be beneficial to both parties, to the landlord if the damages came to more than the deposit so the tennant would be liable for the extra and to the tennant, so they can be sure the landlord isn't massively overcharging them for unnessecary repairs.

nohatnoswim · 30-08-2009 2:47pm

MelonieHead wrote: »

you can report your landlord and,
pending an investigation, you may eventually get your own money back.
Problem solved.

Unless you want access to your money before eventually + a month.
Like to help towards your deposit for a new place.

Exactly my point - I MAY get it back - pending an investigation.

That could take months - I have done nothing wrong - but I take the hit of 1500 until that gets resolved, IF it get's resolved.

I am suspicious of this landlord more than any before - I'm worried that the times are tough scenario may encourage them to take the mick.

I intend to leave this landlord soon - and in the current environment, they are in an exposed position.

I don't trust them - plain and simple. I did, until we discussed money during this tenancy, and then I realised how tight this one is - moreso than any other I've come across.

Therefore when we are moving out, we've to take a giant leap of faith here with them.

There is a massive amount of documented procedure concerning giving deposits to landlord's - seems there is not very well defined procedures concerning getting it back. Last 2 landlords (private) gave money back on the day we moved out. One before was an agent, and we had to drag it out of them after a month. And I'm about to do this again. I can't float this cash indefinately, and I don't want the stress of dealing with it - so I'm trying to pre-empt it somehow to minimise my risk of any possible mess.

As I've already stated, we have nothing to be genuinely concerned about in the house so we are 100% honest tenants here. The house was filthy when we moved in, I guarantee - the same as all other houses we have left, it will be spotless. We pride ourselves in going that extra mile to ensure our full deposit refund.

!!
Not surprising tenants could become nervous.

chrisr001 · 11-10-2009 6:43pm

Being a 100% honest tenant is no guarantee of getting a deposit returned, given the times we are living in. I had a deposit witheld from me.
There was no reason for witholding it, apart from the fact that property owners have trouble with being honest and possession is "whatever".
Or, maybe the house has been in need of refurbishing for many years and what better way to do it than keeping some unsuspecting tenant's security deposit.
In these matters, Ireland doesn't seem to have come out of the dark ages much. They still use the term "landlord"!!
I had my deposit witheld, having looked after the property I stayed in for a year. I thought the PRTB would have little difficulty getting it back.
There was an adjudication. I was barely allowed say a word. The adjudicator wrote up a list of lies about me to the prtb.
I let them know about this.
There was a tribunal hearing.
Though the property owners could not offer any proof of how I allegedly set them back financially (they had originally made up a series of lies for which there was no proof), I offered proof of my date of departure (I was accused of overstaying by a week also), the tribunal did not look at my proof and told the prtb there was "no new evidence", so basically I was classed as a liar and the owners were told to keep the money they stole from me.

The prtb gave me not only no justice but added insults of their own.
My advice is to never rent anywhere that is registered with the prtb.
It's not worth it to have the opportunity of being successful in the small claims court taken way by them.

Property owners do not need to give any proof of how they claim to have been "inconvenienced" by a tenant, to be given permission to keep stolen money.
In an adequate legal system, such a situation would be considered absolutely disgraceful.

MCMT · 11-10-2009 7:50pm

There are a few things you can do to ensure that your deposit is returned:

1. As you say, leave the place spotless and fix any damages beyond normal "wear and tear".

2. The day you move out ask the landlord to do a spot check of the place with you. While you are doing this with him/her take photographs of the place. You could also draw up a spot-check list and ask them to sign it when you're done.

3. Have your date of departure put in writing (for a notice of termination template, see threshold.ie), date it, sign it, and give it to the landlord with correct notice.

Otherwise, if they attempt to withold part of your deposit for repairs, cleaning etc - ask for a full account of what they felt needed to be done in writing, as well as getting receipts for the services. If the charges are unjust, go to the PRTB.

Likewise, if they withold your deposit beyond a month file a dispute with the PRTB.

If you require informal legal advice, arrange an appointment with Threshold.

It's annoying that the Res Properties Act doesn't give more detailed guidelines as to all this. The practice in Canada seems a good template: upon moving in the landlord and tenant do a full spot check of the dwelling, noting any damages or wear and tear already there (this is signed when agreed to by both parties); upon vacating the property the landlord and tenant run through the same check list and note any new damages etc if there are any (again, signed when agreed to by both parties). This way, the tenant knows if s/he will be held liable for damages the day they vacate the property; and if so, they can dispute this. Oh, and by law the landlord must return the full or partial deposit within 14 days (at least this is the case in BC). It's a simple, efficient and cost-free method of ensuring that both parties are protected and scenarios that are all too common in the Irish rental market do not arise.

Agent J · 11-10-2009 8:25pm

Chris you are the 1st person i have heard to speak ill of the PRTB (Aside from the stupidly long time they can take). It is also completely the opposite of my experience with them.

Also it is the law that everywhere must be PRTB registered. If you go to the small claims court then you get bounced to the PRTB.

Throwing arounds the words like "Liar" and "stole" doesnt help your side of the story either.

chrisr001 · 11-10-2009 8:37pm

when my case was presented, and nothing but lies offered by the owners, there is no doubt they considered me a liar. There was no evidence against me, except a concocted story.
It doesnt matter what words I use.
I will never rent a place registered with that inept organisation again.
Ireland may have a legal system, don't know where justice, fairness and impartiality come into it.
I wouldnt waste my time expecting fairness from the prtb ever again.
I can't vouch for anybody else's experiences with them, but I couldnt believe the way they treated me.
It's only fair to let people know what I had to endure from them.
At least it's true.
And yes, the money was stolen from me.

RATM · 11-10-2009 9:20pm

What Ireland really needs is the Australian system whereby a bond is paid by the tenant to a government department. Then upon moving out the landlord inspects the place and if he is claiming damage has been done an independent inspector is called out to witness and price it and it is deducted from the bond.

We left our place spotless in Australia and got 90% of the bond back after 3 weeks of leaving. I think the 10% was deducted for dry cleaning the curtains or something but otherwise it all went smoothly.

convert · 11-10-2009 9:37pm

You could also take photos of the premises before you leave - that way, so long as they are dated, you can show that the house was in reasonable condition when you left.

Kimia · 08-03-2010 12:05pm

Agent J I take your point but it's not good enough to be out of pocket by such a large sum of money (in my case €1500) until the PRTB 'eventually' gets your money back. What are you supposed to do until then? How can the average person afford to pay for another deposit while waiting for the PRTB to sort this out?

I too have had deposits kept on me - one for cleaning (the place was spotless) which was outrageous but there was nothing we could do because they just returned the deposit less €100 and is there point in going through all that stress for €100?

As far as I know cleaning is not a reason to withold a deposit - am i right?

D3PO · 08-03-2010 12:45pm

Agent J wrote: »

I'd consider within a week to be reasonable for the deposit to be returned.

Time has to be given to allow proper inspection and such of the place after you have gone.

why ? why does time have to be given. The landlord / agent needs to do the inspection its rediculous for them to decide when they want to do an inspection. If your moving out the inspection should be done at the time of handing back the keys and getting back your deposit, not before not after.

shoegirl · 08-03-2010 3:12pm

Kimia wrote: »

Agent J I take your point but it's not good enough to be out of pocket by such a large sum of money (in my case €1500) until the PRTB 'eventually' gets your money back. What are you supposed to do until then? How can the average person afford to pay for another deposit while waiting for the PRTB to sort this out?

I too have had deposits kept on me - one for cleaning (the place was spotless) which was outrageous but there was nothing we could do because they just returned the deposit less €100 and is there point in going through all that stress for €100?

As far as I know cleaning is not a reason to withold a deposit - am i right?

I have to say I agree with you. My LL has a clause on the lease automatically withholding 50 euro for "cleaning" even though it was pretty shabby when I moved in. The big prob I find is if the place you move into is shabby - and despite the PRTB, at least 40-50% of places are still beneath what most people would regard as truly clean. Again, is it worth making a fuss over 50 euro?

The real problem is that since average rents are now 800 a month which is about 1/3 of an average wage means that real financial hardship is being created while people wait for deposits to be returned. It all goes back to what I keep saying - tenants are not a wealthy few who flit between rentals - they are generally lower income earners in between welfare and "middle incomes" who don't have a lot to spare and can't really afford to be treated unfairly.

who_ru · 08-03-2010 10:31pm

shoegirl wrote: »

The real problem is that since average rents are now 800 a month which is about 1/3 of an average wage means that real financial hardship is being created while people wait for deposits to be returned. It all goes back to what I keep saying - tenants are not a wealthy few who flit between rentals - they are generally lower income earners in between welfare and "middle incomes" who don't have a lot to spare and can't really afford to be treated unfairly.

Hear Hear

To the OP i say go to the PRTB as soon as one month has elapsed and begin the process.

The tenant in Ireland is 2nd class citizen, always has been and always will be. it's a result of the elitism of the property owning class viewing tenants as a complete waster/dosser/idle person etc. irish values are victorian in relation to tenants. what a country.

Victor · 09-03-2010 5:41am

Threads split. Unless you are the OP, don't reply to this thread.

hasik · 13-08-2013 8:48pm

Hi all, I have signed a 12 months fixed term lease and due to change of my personal circumstances I have to leave the property 8 months before the lease is up.
Now landlord is claiming that due to a breach of the signed lease I will lose my deposit. Can he do that?

Chris_5339762 · 13-08-2013 9:17pm

Yes, and technically he can pursue you for all 8 months of remaining rent. You signed a lease, live with it. An amicable break is obviously not going to work.

You can however, seek to reassign the lease to another tenant (that the landlord agrees with). You must bear all costs in this.

kathleenl · 15-08-2013 2:46pm

In all cases you should take photos of the flat while the landlord is present when you take posession of a flat/house. This is to guarantee that what ever damage or repairs that needed to be done were there before you took over.

Threshold give the following advice:
Terminating a Tenancy by a Tenant

If you have a lease agreement normally you cannot give notice unless the landlord is in breach, there is a break clause or both you and the landlord agree at the time to end the tenancy.

If you break the lease without grounds you will not automatically lose the deposit but your landlord may be able to make deductions from or keep the deposit to cover expenses such as re advertising. You may also be liable for rent remaining on the tenancy for the period until it is re let.

Under the Residential Tenancies Act, a tenant can request to assign or sublet the tenancy and if the landlord refuses you may terminate the tenancy even if you have a lease.

Where you wish to end your tenancy you must give written notice of termination. The amount of notice depends on how long you have been in the tenancy. Below are the normal notice periods:

Duration of Tenancy Notice Period

Less than 6 months 28 days
6 months to 1 year 35 days
1 - 2 years 42 days
2 - 3 years 56 days
3 - 4 years 56 days
More than 4 years 56 days

In some situations shorter notice periods may be given:

7 days if the behaviour of the landlord poses a threat of injury to tenant or danger to the dwelling.
If your landlord is at fault with their obligations you must notify them of the problem in writing and give a reasonable opportunity to correct it but if it continues you can serve a minimum of 28 days notice in writing.

For a notice to be valid it must:

Be in writing
Specify date of service.
State that an issue as to its validity may be referred to the PRTB

What to do

Ensure you terminate your tenancy by using the template
Make a copy of the notice of termination.
If you need further advice contact Threshold.

http://www.threshold.ie/advice/ending-a-tenancy/terminating-a-tenancy-by-a-tenant/

bumper234 · 15-08-2013 2:58pm

Had a LL try to keep a deposit on me once a few years ago. He claimed there was damage to the property and it needed professional cleaners in after we left which was total BS as i left it cleaner than when i moved in. He also tried to claim for a carpet that had an iron mark on it even though this was pointed out to him the day we moved in (it had been covered with a rug) After much "debate" where he flat refused to pay a penny of my €1200 deposit back i asked him how much new windows and frames will cost him to replace. I then asked how much they would cost to replace 4 or 5 times a year? We soon came to an agreement where i got my full deposit back

D3PO · 15-08-2013 3:04pm

why did you bother copying a load of completely useless information for the question presented by Hasik ?

Hasik unless you find somebody to reassign the lease to then yes the LL can retain your deposit for loss of rent. If they find somebody in the next month after you move out (assuming you gave a months deposit) then you would be entitled to some of your deposit back pro rata minus the LL's expense PRTB, Letting agent fees, daft fees etc.

Its unlikely there will be too much left in the pot if any. Next time before you sign a lease perhaps you will think about your obligations before doing so.

Lots of talk on this forum recently about a new deposit system, id equally like to see an easy way for landlords to chase irresponsible tenants. If the law allowed quick judgements against tenants who skip out on leases that could only be seen as a good thing.

bumper234 · 15-08-2013 3:19pm

Careful what you post in here i think the mods are Landlords themselves.

djimi · 15-08-2013 3:53pm

D3PO wrote: »

Next time before you sign a lease perhaps you will think about your obligations before doing so.

I really wish people on here would cop on and stop posting condescending nonsense like this. **** can happen to any of us; not everyone signs a lease with the intention of breaking it mid way through. God forbid, I doubt you would be so patronizing if you found yourself in the same situation.

D3PO · 15-08-2013 4:03pm

djimi wrote: »

I really wish people on here would cop on and stop posting condescending nonsense like this. **** can happen to any of us; not everyone signs a lease with the intention of breaking it mid way through. God forbid, I doubt you would be so patronizing if you found yourself in the same situation.

its not condescending. No more than me expecting a mortgage holder to honour their mortgage contract and saying it on here is.

NOBODY has to sign a lease. There are LL's willing to rent without a fixed lease. Yes you will have less choice and probably pay a premium for it, but if you think you wont be able to fufil the contract that's what you have to endure.

Changing circumstances is not an excuse. If we had a system here that allowed for proper recourse for LL's it would be amazing how the number of people skipping out on leases would reduce.

ameee · 15-08-2013 4:19pm

When i used to rent i made it clear widow gave my notice that the key deposit exchange would be on moving day. A landlord wants cash on your first day so why should they have weeks to hold onto it? I always kept my homes in great condition and gave them back cleaner than i found them but i wouldn't trust my landlords as far as i could throw them. I would happily sit there with them all day so the could inspect and point out any problems (there never were any) but if they had acted the maggot about my deposit i was still in the property and would have refused to leave until i got my money because if i was gone they could do what they liked and there would be nothing i could do. This thing of sure we Will send it on is a joke would they allow you say the same about giving the deposit or rent? Far too many bad landlords and horror stories out there.

djimi · 15-08-2013 4:56pm

D3PO wrote: »

its not condescending. No more than me expecting a mortgage holder to honour their mortgage contract and saying it on here is.

NOBODY has to sign a lease. There are LL's willing to rent without a fixed lease. Yes you will have less choice and probably pay a premium for it, but if you think you wont be able to fufil the contract that's what you have to endure.

Changing circumstances is not an excuse. If we had a system here that allowed for proper recourse for LL's it would be amazing how the number of people skipping out on leases would reduce.

Of course changing circumstances is an excuse. People can lose their job and their ability to pay the rent. God forbid a family member might get sick and you have to move home unexpectedly. Any number of things can happen in life that are impossible to foresee. Thats why the tenancy act has the reassignment option; to allow people a legal way of getting out of a lease when these unforeseen circumstances arise.

Comparing renting to purchasing in this instance is just plain ridiculous. A mortgage is a long term commitment (20+ years); renting is very much a short term agreement. And there are ways of dealing with such unforeseen circumstances when it comes to a mortgage (payment protection, interest only payments etc, even life insurance); the same options are not available when renting, hence the reason why there is a legal way to break a fixed term lease if necessary.

And the chances of finding a landlord who will agree to a tenancy with no signed lease are slim to none. If you want to rent in this country (certainly rent a property that is of any half decent standard) then there is pretty much no option but to sign a lease. If you think otherwise then its pretty obvious you dont have much recent experience of renting.

D3PO · 15-08-2013 11:16pm

you hit the nail on the head Djimi there is provision for unforeseen circumstances but tenants just think they can skip out of a lease and that's that.

As for renting without a lease there is actually a reasonable number of properties available without fixed leases however they fit two categories dumps (wasn't referring to these) or those with a significant premium on the rent up to 20% above normal.

That 20% is the price you pay for flexibility. You either take that flexibility or realize that if you rent without it and need to move that it has concequences.

That may mean subsidizing rent and subletting / reassigning for the remaining period or something else.

Richard Dower · 16-08-2013 1:20am

Before Bengal i was in a flat and my LL of four years sold the property, on closing the deal that day the new LL knocked on my door and said the rent was going up by 30 Euro pw.....i told him i was leaving and gave 30 days notice.

He then informed me i would not get my deposit back, because he decided to add up the numbers his way that suited him not paying me. On that same day the new and old LL fought over the deposit....the new guy was just spinning numbers BS to the old LL and in the end he told him to feck off and the old LL ended up giving me my deposit out of his own pocket.

Some LL are good some are bad......

Sidd · 17-08-2013 11:21pm

Could it not be withheld until confirmation that all utility bills have been paid and closed out?

Getting the deposit back

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