Legal careers and private school qouatas

steddyeddy · 28-07-2013 08:09PM #1

The legal profession in Ireland used to be a very contact driven. Things have got better but there is still an issue regarding the large amount of judges in the supreme court who attended private school.

People maybe respond that there shouldnt be a qouata and that the best man should be selected for the job but I think there is already an effective qouata taken from private school stock and the best men aren't being selected for the job.

I myself am state educated and a scientist as area most other scientists I work with. I cant believe that physicists, doctors and engineers can be state school educayed and suffer no statistical impairment but "the best man" for the role of supreme court judges is largely from a private school background.

Why is this the case and are things improving?

Pro Hoc Vice · 28-07-2013 08:32PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The legal profession in Ireland used to be a very contact driven. Things have got better but there is still an issue regarding the large amount of judges in the supreme court who attended private school.

People maybe respond that there shouldnt be a qouata and that the best man should be selected for the job but I think there is already an effective qouata taken from private school stock and the best men aren't being selected for the job.

I myself am state educated and a scientist as area most other scientists I work with. I cant believe that physicists, doctors and engineers can be state school educayed and suffer no statistical impairment but "the best man" for the role of supreme court judges is largely from a private school background.

Why is this the case and are things improving?

To the best of my knowledge all current members of the SC are Barristers. They would have all joined the Library in the 70's and 80's. the library was tiny back then numbering about 600. To go to kings inns and devil was a very expensive thing back then and would have been mostly children of wealthy parents, those who would by and large have sent their children to private schools.

Is it changing yes, but the change won't be seen on the SC for another 10 or more years.

LowKeyReturn · 28-07-2013 11:24PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Why is this the case and are things improving?

What improvement do you think needs to happen? Who do you think should have been selected over the current Supreme Court Judges?

LowKeyReturn · 29-07-2013 01:09AM

Just out of interest - are/were CBS Schools private schools?

coylemj · 29-07-2013 01:19AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

People maybe respond that there shouldnt be a qouata and that the best man should be selected for the job but I think there is already an effective qouata taken from private school stock

There is no 'quota' of any kind, you are talking nonsense.

steddyeddy wrote: »

and the best men aren't being selected for the job.

So the Cabinet are deliberately overlooking the best candidates in favour of people who come from private schools?

Can I remind you that the Taoiseach of this country who presides over cabinet meetings was educated in a secondary school in Castlebar and then trained as a primary school teacher in St. Pats in Drumcondra. You can't seriously suggest that he is involved in perpetuating a system which discriminates in favour of men who were educated in fee-paying private schools.

steddyeddy wrote: »

and the best men aren't being selected for the job.

Come to think of it, you're probably closer to the mark than you think - the Govt. appointed two women to the Supreme Court last week.

steddyeddy · 29-07-2013 06:08AM

coylemj wrote: »

There is no 'quota' of any kind, you are talking nonsense.

So the Cabinet are deliberately overlooking the best candidates in favour of people who come from private schools?

Can I remind you that the Taoiseach of this country who presides over cabinet meetings was educated in a secondary school in Castlebar and then trained as a primary school teacher in St. Pats in Drumcondra. You can't seriously suggest that he is involved in perpetuating a system which discriminates in favour of men who were educated in fee-paying private schools.

Come to think of it, you're probably closer to the mark than you think - the Govt. appointed two women to the Supreme Court last week.

You dont think legal services in Ireland recruited largely from private schools and was contact driven?

johnnyskeleton · 29-07-2013 06:40AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

You dont think legal services in Ireland recruited largely from private schools and was contact driven?

You're the one who made the assertion, lets see your proof/argument. As a scientist, surely you accept the need to put forward empirical data to support your claim. For example, you were asked if Christian brothers schools counted in your methodology. You were also asked to comment on the two most recent appointments.

Cody Pomeray · 29-07-2013 10:45AM

Be careful what you wish for OP.

My experience it is the people who have no family connection to legal practice who seem to be most protective of its standing and in the case of the Bar and the Inns, its ceremonies.

If you get into law believing that your Master, and seniors and judges belong to a species of deity, you may find it harder to maintain criticism than someone who although recognizing their enhanced responsibility and experiences, is mindful that they are occasionally subject to fits of error and even foolishness, just like anyone else.

One of the biggest critics of the legal system I've met is the daughter of a High Court judge. Some of the biggest advocates of the status quo are the children of builders and school teachers.

There has already been an extraordinarily expansive intake of new legal professionals. But the effects of that are not what might have been anticipated.

McCrack · 29-07-2013 12:09PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The legal profession in Ireland used to be a very contact driven. Things have got better but there is still an issue regarding the large amount of judges in the supreme court who attended private school.

People maybe respond that there shouldnt be a qouata and that the best man should be selected for the job but I think there is already an effective qouata taken from private school stock and the best men aren't being selected for the job.

I myself am state educated and a scientist as area most other scientists I work with. I cant believe that physicists, doctors and engineers can be state school educayed and suffer no statistical impairment but "the best man" for the role of supreme court judges is largely from a private school background.

Why is this the case and are things improving?

The judiciary are not representative of the legal profession.

There are approx 120 Judges in Ireland and 15,000 legal professionals. That's .8 of 1 percent that are Judges.

LowKeyReturn · 29-07-2013 12:27PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

You dont think legal services in Ireland recruited largely from private schools and was contact driven?

This contacts thing is generally a misconception. The British public school stereotype is taken and some how applied to Ireland. Yes you need contacts, those contacts can be built, and are built in a number of ways. I can't comment on how it was ten, twenty or thirty years ago but today, now the legal profession is a remarkably open one.

Firstly there are active projects to encourage youngsters for 'deprived' areas into the legal profession. I know of work done in the Ballymun Law Centre where it never even occurred to some of the kids there they could peruse careers in law. This opinion seemed to come, to some extent, from the kind of stereotypical attitude you seem to have OP. Although the barrister route would be quite difficult (not impossible) for someone without funding from a family member there is absolutely no reason the solicitor route wouldn't be an option.

In my own personal experience, I could be generously described as of average intelligence, English and working-class, barristers in particular are nothing but generous in their advice and time. One particular barrister I am absolutely sure finds me to be an utter gob sh!te but nevertheless is still nothing short of helpful when asked for something. I'm not just referring to people I come in contact with during my degree either.

I'm happy to try and help inform you OP but you have to accept something that most people find hard to believe first of all though. Lawyers are generally, well informed, generous with a strong sense of justice and fairness who do the job for poor-average renumeration, and many of which have voluntary jobs they do on the side. There are people in it just for the money, the great thing is that if you're on the big bucks in the legal profession you probably deserve it.

L1011 · 29-07-2013 02:34PM

LowKeyReturn wrote: »

Just out of interest - are/were CBS Schools private schools?

In general, no and often far from it.

NoQuarter · 29-07-2013 03:58PM

LowKeyReturn wrote: »

One particular barrister I am absolutely sure finds me to be an utter gob sh!te but nevertheless is still nothing short of helpful when asked for something.

You're welcome! :pac:

LowKeyReturn · 29-07-2013 04:07PM

NoQuarter wrote: »

You're welcome! :pac:

Sorry several...

steddyeddy · 29-07-2013 04:38PM

infosys wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge all current members of the SC are Barristers. They would have all joined the Library in the 70's and 80's. the library was tiny back then numbering about 600. To go to kings inns and devil was a very expensive thing back then and would have been mostly children of wealthy parents, those who would by and large have sent their children to private schools.

Is it changing yes, but the change won't be seen on the SC for another 10 or more years.

I despise the link between educational opportunity and eduation. Hopefully things progress.

steddyeddy · 29-07-2013 04:47PM

LowKeyReturn wrote: »

What improvement do you think needs to happen? Who do you think should have been selected over the current Supreme Court Judges?

I think becoming a barrister should be less dependent on being born into a rich family.

Pro Hoc Vice · 29-07-2013 04:49PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I despise the link between educational opportunity and eduation. Hopefully things progress.

They have progressed, most barristers I know now are sons and daughters of non lawyers, in fact my own view having a close relative in law can be be a blessing and a pain. Most barristers I know from the last 20 years went to ordinary schools, same with the solicitor profession. It will be seen on the SC bench in next few years.

johnnyskeleton · 29-07-2013 06:33PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think becoming a barrister should be less dependent on being born into a rich family.

Again, as a scientist, can you give us the data you are using to establish:
a) what is a "rich" family?
b) the level of barristers dependent on being born into a rich family out of total barristers;
c) the desireable level of "rich" to "not rich" families from which barristers come?

Even if you don't have exact figures, that's fine. What, in your opinion is your answer to the above, based on your own personal experience and circumstances, anecdotal evidence and first princples?

johnnyskeleton · 29-07-2013 06:55PM

MYOB wrote: »

In general, no and often far from it.

They are private in the sense that they are owned by a private body as opposed to national schools which are set up by the government.

However, you can have a private CBS in a deprived area which has government funding and you can have a national school in a well to do area that has good funding.

I think what people usually mean by private is "fee paying".

As regards the Current Judges, since the OP isn't going to answer it, I understand that Mr. Justice O'Donnell and Mr. Justice Clarke did not go to fee paying schools, although I am not entirely certain as to each school. As to Ms. Justice Laffoy and Ms. Justice Dunne, their biographies do not appear on the supremecourt.ie website just yet.

hullaballoo · 29-07-2013 07:17PM

Mr Justice Finnegan went to Synge St CBS and St Mary's Dundalk.

JS

Cody Pomeray · 29-07-2013 07:22PM

I think it's a little unfair to name anybody here, but of course there are judges and also SCs who have come from very modest means.

My very first encounter with the Bar was via a now retired gentleman who went to the Inns in 1959, became an SC in 1971, and whose mother was a single mother rearing 5 children in rural Ireland. It is an insult to working men like that to dismiss the entire profession as mere rich kids.

I don't doubt that these people have been in the minority, like any profession in the mid-late 20th century, but I would be wary of dismissing the entire profession as having been heretofore over-run with the spray-tanned spawn of the Royal St George.

In any case, the whole thing is of very doubtful significance to the administration of justice, or the outlook of the people in question.

steddyeddy · 29-07-2013 08:30PM

I sit on a voluntary position of a project that aspires to instil belief in certain socio economic groups that they can aspire to college. While there has been certain students who have obtained a law degree a lot have found it a very contact driven profession. A student has lost hope of career law because of his experiences in the profession.

That is where I am coming from and I thinking it disingenuous that some posters are playing dumb as regards the role private school networks have played in the law profession.

I know people studying law and the majority have a strong sense of justice and I know lawyers who do great pro bono work for good causes. This is not an attack on people or students.

steddyeddy · 29-07-2013 08:40PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

They are private in the sense that they are owned by a private body as opposed to national schools which are set up by the government.

However, you can have a private CBS in a deprived area which has government funding and you can have a national school in a well to do area that has g
ood funding.

I think what people usually mean by private is "fee paying".

As regards the Current Judges, since the OP isn't going to answer it, I understand that Mr. Justice O'Donnell and Mr. Justice Clarke did not go to fee paying schools, although I am not entirely certain as to each school. As to Ms. Justice Laffoy and Ms. Justice Dunne, their biographies do not appear on the supremecourt.ie website just yet.

Johnny I am not referring exclusively to the supreme court Judges rather too the route to becoming a barrister and the resistance some students from disadvantaged backgrounds report to us.

It would also be fair to say that a lot of students hear that (unfairly prehaps) that a career in legal services requires contacts and are turned off The idea.

steddyeddy · 29-07-2013 08:45PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I think it's a little unfair to name anybody here, but of course there are judges and also SCs who have come from very modest means.

My very first encounter with the Bar was via a now retired gentleman who went to the Inns in 1959, became an SC in 1971, and whose mother was a single mother rearing 5 children in rural Ireland. It is an insult to working men like that to dismiss the entire profession as mere rich kids.

I don't doubt that these people have been in the minority, like any profession in the mid-late 20th century, but I would be wary of dismissing the entire profession as having been heretofore over-run with the spray-tanned spawn of the Royal St George.

In any case, the whole thing is of very doubtful significance to the administration of justice, or the outlook of the people in question.

I have respect for lawyers but I think that it would be disingenuous to say that
fee paying schools arent over represented in sending students to the legal profession.

As regards your last point I would think that drawing judges, barristers or anyone from a small section of society would be both unfair and reducing the potential qaulity of candiates.

steddyeddy · 29-07-2013 08:53PM

coylemj wrote: »

There is no 'quota' of any kind, you are talking nonsense.

So the Cabinet are deliberately overlooking the best candidates in favour of people who come from private schools?

Can I remind you that the Taoiseach of this country who presides over cabinet meetings was educated in a secondary school in Castlebar and then trained as a primary school teacher in St. Pats in Drumcondra. You can't seriously suggest that he is involved in perpetuating a system which discriminates in favour of men who were educated in fee-paying private schools.

Come to think of it, you're probably closer to the mark than you think - the Govt. appointed two women to the Supreme Court last week.

Im referring to the role private schools have had in the irish legal profession. More so than science for instance.

steddyeddy · 29-07-2013 08:54PM

coylemj wrote: »

There is no 'quota' of any kind, you are talking nonsense.

So the Cabinet are deliberately overlooking the best candidates in favour of people who come from private schools?

Can I remind you that the Taoiseach of this country who presides over cabinet meetings was educated in a secondary school in Castlebar and then trained as a primary school teacher in St. Pats in Drumcondra. You can't seriously suggest that he is involved in perpetuating a system which discriminates in favour of men who were educated in fee-paying private schools.

Come to think of it, you're probably closer to the mark than you think - the Govt. appointed two women to the Supreme Court last week.

Im referring to the role private schools have had in the irish legal profession. More so than science for instance.

NoQuarter · 29-07-2013 09:03PM

There is no role for private schools in the legal profession imo. It just a matter of coincidence. There is absolutely no bar on becoming a Barrister at any stage relation to the school you came from.

It just so happens that the road to becoming a successful Barrister is fraught with penuary and so to get over that hurdle, you either need parents to support you or you need to get off your ass and get a part-time job.

When we think of fee-paying schools, we think about youngsters coming out of secondary school and their parents paying their way right through for them, that happens and there is nothing we can do about that. But the legal profession is perhaps the most diverse profession I have ever seen and many professionals in other areas have worked for years in one area to pay their way through legal education and training.

If there is a question along the lines of "the privileged few have it handed to them on a plate so why cant the disadvantaged have the earth moved for them to help them along" well then, I'm sorry, but thats not right. I revert to my first paragraph and reiterate that there are absolutely no bars to anyone becoming a Barrister if they want it. I'm not saying it will be easy, it may involve getting a job and saving up quite a bit of money, but there are no bars.

johnnyskeleton · 29-07-2013 09:04PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I sit on a voluntary position of a project that aspires to instil belief in certain socio economic groups that they can aspire to college. While there has been certain students who have obtained a law degree but have found it a very contact driven profession. A student has lost hope of career law because of his experiences in the profession.

It is simply not the case that people from disadvantaged backgrounds cannot get into the legal profession. But it's easy for someone who got a 2h2 or 3rd and didn't do any extra curricular, volunteering, internships or have strong interview skills to say "I was excluded because I didn't have the contacts". But even with none of the above and a poor degree, the bar and devilling is still open to them.

Nor are contacts the preserve of the rich - a friend from a football team is a contact. A member of the same political party is a contact. Someone you met in a pub one time is a contact. A solicitor who you meet devilling and takes a shine to you - thats a contact. A client who trusts you is a great contact. A friend who gets into trouble with the gardai a lot - even that's a contact and none of those things is connected to any particular class.

Besides, what is the difference between someone who went to a national school who has no contacts and someone who went to a private school and also has no contacts?

That is where I am coming from and I thinking it disingenuous that some posters are playing dumb as regards the role private school networks have played in the law profession.

Not to be harsh, but looking at only those people who did not succeed, for whatever reason, in getting into the legal profession, and moreover looking at only their stated reasons for that failure (which are not always the truth) does not mean that you can discount any view inconsistent with that as disingenuous.

To be honest, I think it is disingenuous to blame ones humble background for ones failure to get on in life. Thats not to say that there is anything your friends are doing wrong, its just a difficult profession. According to the bar council, in 2011/2012 there were 140 barristers who left the bar, with an annual entry of approximately 147. It is unlikely that this drop out rate reflects those from a disadvantaged background.

I know people studying law and the majority have a strong sense of justice and I know lawyers who do great pro bono work for good causes. This is not an attack on people or students.

At best, it is cognitive dissonance on your part. You know specific lawyers who are good honest people but you maintain an unfounded view that these people must be the exception rather than the rule, because you are so convinced that the legal profession must be elitist that your mind cannot process the more accurate representation of the legal profession based on your personal experiences.

You ten suffer confirmation bias when people contradict you, because in your mind they must be disingenuous to do so.

Cody Pomeray · 29-07-2013 09:04PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I have respect for lawyers but I think that it would be disingenuous to say thatfee paying schools arent over represented in sending students to the legal profession.

Yes fee charging school alumni are disproportionately well represented. No argument there.

However, I don't believe that fee charging school alumni are more disproportionately well represented than in the other established professions.

Before I did my law undergrad I was occasionally a veterinary student. My memory is that there was as big a proportion of privately educated students on that course as in law. I think it might have been as high as 1 in 3 coming from private schools and the institute.

Are you suggesting that privately educated students in law is a unique or greater phenomenon? Why?

Pro Hoc Vice · 29-07-2013 09:13PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Im referring to the role private schools have had in the irish legal profession. More so than science for instance.

And you have been asked for evidence here is what I know about the current 8

Susan Denham, Alexandra College, Non Legal Family.

John Murray, Rockwell, non legal family.

Adrian Hardiman, Belvedere College, non legal family.

Nial Fennelly, Clongowes Wood College.

Donal O’Donnell, St Mary's C.B.S., Father was NI High Court Judge.

Liam McKechnie, PBS Cork.

Frank Clarke, Drimnagh Castle CBS, first of his family to attend third level.

John Mac Menamin, Terenure College.

steddyeddy · 29-07-2013 09:16PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

It is simply not the case that people from disadvantaged backgrounds cannot get into the legal profession. But it's easy for someone who got a 2h2 or 3rd and didn't do any extra curricular, volunteering, internships or have strong interview skills to say "I was excluded because I didn't have the contacts". But even with none of the above and a poor degree, the bar and devilling is still open to them.

Nor are contacts the preserve of the rich - a friend from a football team is a contact. A member of the same political party is a contact. Someone you met in a pub one time is a contact. A solicitor who you meet devilling and takes a shine to you - thats a contact. A client who trusts you is a great contact. A friend who gets into trouble with the gardai a lot - even that's a contact and none of those things is connected to any particular class.

Besides, what is the difference between someone who went to a national school who has no contacts and someone who went to a private school and also has no contacts?

Not to be harsh, but looking at only those people who did not succeed, for whatever reason, in getting into the legal profession, and moreover looking at only their stated reasons for that failure (which are not always the truth) does not mean that you can discount any view inconsistent with that as disingenuous.

To be honest, I think it is disingenuous to blame ones humble background for ones failure to get on in life. Thats not to say that there is anything your friends are doing wrong, its just a difficult profession. According to the bar council, in 2011/2012 there were 140 barristers who left the bar, with an annual entry of approximately 147. It is unlikely that this drop out rate reflects those from a disadvantaged background.

At best, it is cognitive dissonance on your part. You know specific lawyers who are good honest people but you maintain an unfounded view that these people must be the exception rather than the rule, because you are so convinced that the legal profession must be elitist that your mind cannot process the more accurate representation of the legal profession based on your personal experiences.

You ten suffer confirmation bias when people contradict you, because in your mind they must be disingenuous to do so.

Johnny I said lawyers often come from fee paying schools. I didn't say or dont think that makes one "elite" or prevents one from being honest and having a sense of justice. That came from your mind not mine

johnnyskeleton · 29-07-2013 09:17PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Johnny I am not referring exclusively to the supreme court Judges rather too the route to becoming a barrister and the resistance some students from disadvantaged backgrounds report to us.

Ok, well that was what most of the OP was about. To be honest, people from disadvantaged backgrounds will make up a minority in all professions due to several reasons entirely unconnected to the professions themselves. Then, there is the fact that many people find it difficult to be barristers. Finally, as I've said above, it is often easier to use your background as an excuse than to face up to the real reasons why it didn't work out.

I don't mean that in a bad way, but it is easier to live with a chip on your shoulder because you feel excluded from the profession because you are from Ballymun, rather than face up to the more unconfortable truth that it was a significant risk to take and you felt that you probably wouldn't make it.

It would also be fair to say that a lot of students hear that (unfairly prehaps) that a career in legal services requires contacts and are turned off The idea.

It is a misunderstanding of what "contacts" are. As I said above, it's people skills and getting involved that's important. Being related to someone in the legal profession is of benefit to maybe one in thirty lawyers.

Legal careers and private school qouatas

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