Would you take the hit ?

Yes I would take the hit. For the effort he has made he deserves to get the hit IMHO, but I would make it my mission for the day to get him back.(within the rules of coarse)

andy_g wrote: »

Technically it is looking down the sights as it has crosshair thus not blind fire.

But you lose all sense of peripheral awareness. Speaking from a marshall's point of view I would not be happy with that.

That's before we get near the reality that in a game based on honour & fun, this really is a kill-joy with a great big "I want to win at all costs" button stuck to it. It fits into the same argument as mounting a great big plexi-glass shield to your AEG so you can't "be hit". TBH, poor form and it removes something from the spirit of the game.

Darth Phoenix wrote: »

Odd one but I was always under the imppression from a debrief from the sites I got to when it comes to blind firing " I use blind firing loosly for this topic here " that you need to make yourself a target to shoot a target, wouldn't that device be the same if someone was behind cover and next all you see is a pistol only around the corner, wouldn't that be class as blind firing..?




DP

But what if you can shoot from cover yet see your target. For instance I was told I was "blind firing" when I was shooting through a gap and could quite clearly see my target. The fella on the receiving end shouted "blind firing" and the marshall confirmed , but I folllowed the rules confused as I was.

I always assumed and my assumption was confirmed at a different site, that to put it bluntly you stick your pistol or aeg around the corner and are shooting "Blindly", whilst your body remains covered. Am I right or wrong?, always meant to ask this.

Southern Dandy wrote: »

I always assumed and my assumption was confirmed at a different site, that to put it bluntly you stick your pistol or aeg around the corner and are shooting "Blindly", whilst your body remains covered. Am I right or wrong?, always meant to ask this.

That's the obvious example; but basically the definition is: if you are unable to sight down your barrel at the target, you are blind firing. That includes firing through gaps in a wooden pallet fence (for example), whilst looking through another gap, etc.

If you can do both through that same gap, well then by all means fire away ... unless specifically instructed otherwise by marshalls, e.g. "don't use murder holes in buildings as they are out of play, etc."

CpcRc wrote: »

Some people try to do this in corridors through door way cracks, etc. It can bring battle flow to a standstill and enemy players will complain because they don't get to play. You require a much lower skill level to prolong your presence in the area than they do.

That being said; doorway cracks are a lot less "safe" than people think. I've nailed (and watched nailed) many, many an airsofter who thought they could either spot through one or try and fire through one.

An advantage worked for is better than an advantage abused. For everyone involved.

+1

Inari wrote: »

...

I had a big post written, and reading through it; I cannot be @rsed descending to rebutting straw-man arguments. Suffiice to say; just because something exists in real life doesn't mean it's suitable for airsoft. After all, we all know that every single miltary/police tactic/tool works flawlessly when applied to airsoft ...

The following quote is apt: "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

Southern Dandy wrote: »

Right I get your points Lemmimg and Cpcrc but it is called "Blind firing". Now I mean the clue is in the name, "blind". Pretty much means your firing at something you can not see nor care if you can, they can see your aeg peeping around but not you from a safety aspect and the "unfair" side of it that I completely agree, but if I am in cover and have a clear shot at my target through through a hole, how is that "blind firing"?.

From a marshals point of view, if you can sight down your barrel at a target using the same hole/gap/whatever that you are trying to fire through then I don't have a problem, assuming that no instructions have been given regards the use of holes or certain sorts of holes that may be found on a particular site (e.g. "murder holes" found on MoD FIBUA sites for example). You know exactly where your round is going and what is between your barrel and the target with a reasonable idea of what's going on around the path taken. If you can do what I have just written, then your target can also see you (if they're looking hard enough ... ) and they can also hit you however hard it may be to do.

A good player will conceal themselves to the extent that there is very little to be seen i.e. firing from under a fallen tree/Behind a barrier.
You cannot see, if any of them. You position yourself to render any return fire practically ineffective.

Remember, It is easier to shoot out through a small hole that it is to hit a target behind the small hole from range.

I would accept a hit from it. I would then make it my mission to hunt the mufferducker down and return the favour

You dont hear the afghans complaining that its cheating, then again they cant say they werent hit

if the shots are aimed then i would have no problem with it, but if the user turns his gun into a tactical L and is blasting away around the corner without checking whats there, i would have a problem with that as it would be going away from the intended use of the original and would merely be a way of holding your gun around the corner to blind fire without the risk of getting shot in the hands.

thermo wrote: »

if the shots are aimed then i would have no problem with it, but if the user turns his gun into a tactical L and is blasting away around the corner without checking whats there, i would have a problem with that as it would be going away from the intended use of the original and would merely be a way of holding your gun around the corner to blind fire without the risk of getting shot in the hands.

Well, that's kind of the point of the corner-shot though, no? The succinctly described "tactical L".

thermo wrote: »

in real life where your not too concerned about the "bad guys" so yeah, airsoft is a little different where you have rules to ensure player safety.
i always thought that the blind fire rule was there not because it was unfair as no target was presented to the opposition but because it stopped people sticking the muzzle around the corner and going full auto into someones face at 2 inches..... is this not the case??

As I said earlier, but nobody bothered to notice; what works in real-life does not always translate well to airsoft, be it tactics or technology in this case.

In real life, the corner shot would be used to acquire a target without creating a give-away silhouette. There is no part of an arm, shoulder, hand, or head to see, so the tell-tale signs are - in theory - that much harder to spot. In real life, it was designed to be a great big "I win" button because there is a real need to minimise ones own casualties.

In airsoft, there are two core aspects I take issue with.

1. Safety
   • Lack of peripheral vision & awareness
   • The reality of behaviour that the corner-shot can facilitate.
2. The change in a basic fundamental principle of what is a game, not real-life. By removing the requirement for line of sight (booby-traps & throw-able grenades not withstanding), one side of the equation is denied any sort of "fair deal" in what is ostensibly meant to be a game. Otherwise called "fun". Not real-life where there is no second lives, only a hole in the ground and "fair" need not apply.

Point number 1 (Safety):

Lack of peripheral vision & awareness

The limited, narrow view afforded by the corner-shot camera combined with the disconnected reality of the shooter since they are tucked around a corner concentrating on a screen whilst holding an extension connected to their AEG means very much reduced awareness of what's going on between the shooter's barrel & the intended target. Unlike a sniper-scope (should someone try to use that example) where one can just open their other eye, the shooter can't do that as they are solely reliant on what's going on directly in front of the camera.

On top of that, there is also the risk of the camera returning an impaired image to the shooter due to malfunction, lens smear, or just poor environmental or lighting conditions rendering the view badly. Or in the most extreme case, failure just as the shooter pulls the trigger. All of which see the shooter being reliant on a failing piece of technology to see what's in front of the barrel because they cannot do so themselves by opening their eyes. Of the above, I would see lens smear or poor conditions causing the most problems. In any case, if you can't see what's between your barrel & target, you shouldn't be firing.

The reality of behaviour facilitated

To put this in perspective; the corner-shot allows a user to park an airsoft gun capable of full-auto fire around a corner in a "tactical L" position. This is on top of what sort of environment the corner-shot was designed for; namely urban & perhaps limited CQB use. Urban airsoft is fast, CQB even faster.

So how do people see the above scenario playing out? Assume you're at a milsim event at an urban site. There will come a point borne either out of frustration, lack of concentration/awareness due to fatigue, or "because I can" where you will start to find the corner-shot being used for full-auto spray & pray by users trying to grapple with a narrow view, disconnected sense of "point & shoot", fast moving targets, and possibly growing fatigue affecting their concentration & awareness.

I say the above as someone who has been to more milsim, film-sim, & historical events than I can care to remember at this point. I say the above as someone who has marshalled numerous milsim events on MoD urban sites, and as someone who has been staff, directing players at milsim events on MoD urban sites. Aside from the "because I can" brigade, most of the above use I wouldn't consider stemming from any sense of malice; simply borne out of players running out of steam and losing concentration as they try to keep up a frantic pace whilst usually also failing to look after their own bodies.

In a dedicated CQB environment, the pace is even faster and the use of a corner-shot would be more a liability than asset.

All of the above - whilst not necessarily a direct "red line" greatly adds to the risk of blind-firing or otherwise negligent play, and sits very uneasily with me as both a marshal & as a player.


Point number 2 (Fundamental change in the game):

I'll break this in two parts; the first is the fundamental change. The second is the fall-out from that at any given skirmish.

To aim at a target requires line of sight. That means you are, to quote another boards user on the military forum, on a "two-way range" i.e. the target can aim back at you. Given the general range of airsoft guns, regardless of how difficult or how highly the odds may be stacked against one side due to cover/concealment/who-spots-who-first, there is always the chance of getting that successful return shot.

The corner-shot breaks that fundamental. So what? Well, airsoft is a game. Not real life. It's meant to be about everyone having fun at the end of the day, not "winning" or padding out imaginary COD-kill stats that only you can see floating in front of your eyes.

And now we come to the second part: the fall-out from the above. I'll ask what people think a game with any number of corner-shots would be like. I doubt it would be a particularly "fun" game at any rate, either for corner-shot users or non-corner-shot users alike. "Boring" would be the exact word I would use first.

The corner shot will serve little except lead to frustration, arguments, and accusations of cheating, non-hit taking, blind firing, etc. because this is the behaviour that players will perceive - real or not. It will do nothing to engender fair play, or enjoyment of the game by all concerned.

The only use I can see of a corner-shot is if scripted as a set-piece into a milsim event & tightly controlled.



Edit: Oh, and before another straw-man round of "but what about grenades"; grenades are one-shot deals. Even reloadable ones need to be retrieved first. The other guy may even get to cover before the grenade goes off meaning you need to be quick around that corner to follow up. Further, with some types of grenades, or some events, you will encounter restrictions on how you are permitted to use them e.g. no throw/post only, no throwing through/out windows above ground-level, etc.

Not even remotely comparable to sitting around a corner with an AEG and magazine after magazine.

Well would you lads take a hit if a guy placed a mirror behind his gun and used that to shoot around corners and over mounds ?

Two things to say,

1 - Any site that allows such a device is simply degrading the sport.

2 - And if anyone makes one of these, dont bother waste your BBs on me because I wont take the hit, I would openly notify you and the marshall that I wont take a hit from a device like that. If that leads tome being removedfrom the site then so be it as I would never have returned anyway.