Ambulances being sent to the wrong places

Bang Bang · 22-06-2013 04:46PM

mathepac wrote: »

I can give a first-hand example where an elderly man died on the street outside McKeogh's Supermarket in Ballina, Co. Tipperary because centralised ambulance control in Dublin

A local control centre would have been on the case immediately

So you are stating that a person died in Tipperary because of the Dublin Ambulance Control??
That is certainly a strange one because Tipperary is not under the juristiction of the Dublin Control, it is still under the command and control of it's old Control Room.

So would you care to elaborate on this "First-hand example"?

The term 'Jumping on the Bandwagon' springs to mind:rolleyes:

Bang Bang · 22-06-2013 04:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Guys, I have viewranger on my phone. If I needed to, would an accurate OS grid reference be of use over te phone to ye?

Grid references are useful when contacting the Dublin Control room, although ambulances don't carry sat-nav devices the EMC can make use of the reference and pinpoint it on the new system.
An example was a road traffic accident some months back in the Dublin-Wicklow mountain range, the person making the call did not know the name of the area they were in. They utilised the mapping on their smart phone and passed the information to the EMC. Ambulance Control could then pinpoint the location and respond and ambulance.

SpaceTime · 22-06-2013 04:53PM

It's not just lack of postcodes though, Irish addressing is completely weird and largely chaotic and unfit for purpose.

multiple places with exactly the same name. areas known colloquially and officially by multiple names. Non unique addresses where there's only a town land covering a huge area.

then you've lack of house numbers displayed or assigned in a lot of urban areas and apartments and office complexes that don't use a street number. so you get something like Apt 3 SnootyVille House, Mount Street...

Bilingual addresses too.

We need actual geolocation codes, not post codes as we have no system of addresses underlying it at all.

Any new system essentially has to provide a geographical location without the need for a street address at all!

It wouldn't necessarily replace the colloquially addresses we have but you'd be able to use whatever daft address you liked provided you also included a code.

A conventional postcode in the continental sense won't solve it.

St. Leibowitz · 22-06-2013 09:17PM

There are actually two location systems that I know of, loc8.ie and gocode.ie.

I have the loc8 and gocode codes by the phone, along with the OS grid reference for my home. Not sure if NAS, garda and fire service calltakers have Internet access, but if they can go to loc8.ie or whatever, and put in my reference, they'll see my house on the map, accurate to a few meters or so.

Is this useful ?? Do the calltakers have Internet access, or is it a waste of time ??

SpaceTime · 23-06-2013 09:56AM

St. Leibowitz wrote: »

There are actually two location systems that I know of, loc8.ie and gocode.ie.

I have the loc8 and gocode codes by the phone, along with the OS grid reference for my home. Not sure if NAS, garda and fire service calltakers have Internet access, but if they can go to loc8.ie or whatever, and put in my reference, they'll see my house on the map, accurate to a few meters or so.

Is this useful ?? Do the calltakers have Internet access, or is it a waste of time ??

They should have access to Internet as even Google maps has property names now. it's better than most other alternatives at finding unnumbered houses and obscure addresses

GPSParamedics · 23-06-2013 04:50PM

St. Leibowitz wrote: »

There are actually two location systems that I know of, loc8.ie and gocode.ie.

I have the loc8 and gocode codes by the phone, along with the OS grid reference for my home. Not sure if NAS, garda and fire service calltakers have Internet access, but if they can go to loc8.ie or whatever, and put in my reference, they'll see my house on the map, accurate to a few meters or so.

Is this useful ?? Do the calltakers have Internet access, or is it a waste of time ??

Relying on the loc8 & gocode alone wouldn't be advised, although they are useful not every EMC (Emergency Medical Controller) has internet access at his/her desk. Ideally integration of this type of code into the mapping system would work wonders.

Directions to your house from several directions and also the full address written next to the phone will also be helpful.

mathepac · 23-06-2013 04:56PM

Bang Bang wrote: »

So you are stating that a person died in Tipperary because of the Dublin Ambulance Control??
That is certainly a strange one because Tipperary is not under the juristiction of the Dublin Control, it is still under the command and control of it's old Control Room.

So would you care to elaborate on this "First-hand example"?

The term 'Jumping on the Bandwagon' springs to mind:rolleyes:

When I queried who was ringing me the response I got was "central ambulance control". Whether "central ambulance control" is located in Laois or Lagos I don't know and don't care, all I know is that where-ever they are, on the day they failed their patient.

Bang Bang · 24-06-2013 12:54PM

mathepac wrote: »

When I queried who was ringing me the response I got was "central ambulance control". Whether "central ambulance control" is located in Laois or Lagos I don't know and don't care, all I know is that where-ever they are, on the day they failed their patient.

But you stated that the man died because the control room was in Dublin when it wasn't. Are you now changing the reason you believed that man died?

What was that term again, 'Jumping on the Bandwagon' was it:rolleyes:

searescue · 24-06-2013 05:21PM

Another one:

http://www.radiokerry.ie/news/ambulance-called-for-seriously-ill-tralee-man-goes-to-the-wrong-address/

Hope they look at all these incidents and address them before moving the other counties control to Dublin.

gctest50 · 24-06-2013 06:01PM

searescue wrote: »

Hope they look at all these incidents and address them before moving the other counties control to Dublin.

Can't blame anyone in a control centre anywhere if :

".............some of the names do not appear on any map."

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ambulances-sent-to-wrong-areas-by-new-control-centre-29312108.html

Old diesel · 24-06-2013 08:33PM

okay - im in North Cork - in a rural area - I ring 999 in an emergency for an ambulance - how do I get the ambulance to come out to the right address with this new control centre.

Hopefully the system will recognise elements of my address - ie the village name that's part of my address.

But if it doesn't - what then???.

Yes I can give directions - but if the guy is going to turn around and say that the place names I mention don't come up on the computer and thus do not exist - then we aren't going to get anywhere

Would expect that Sat Nav would be able to figure out where my nearest village is - even if that Sat Nav system is in the control room rather then the ambulance.

Big question for me - is how do other countries overcome this issue - like say Scotland which has a a lot of remote rural areas.

anydroid · 25-06-2013 11:25AM

Am very surprised (... or am I?) that the various depts and stakeholders involved in emergency dispatch haven't got their game together and established an integrated approach to dispatching emergency services.

As ESB can apparently identify every property in the country (and their maps have informed everything from rural broadband to property tax) perhaps people should quote their ESB account when they need help!

More seriously... if the IT to make this happen is in use elsewhere, then what the heck have our people been up to?

(cue inter-agency fact-finding trips to Canada/Australia.... as the whatever the Brits use will be ipso facto unsuitable)

searescue · 25-06-2013 01:42PM

anydroid wrote: »

Am very surprised (... or am I?) that the various depts and stakeholders involved in emergency dispatch haven't got their game together and established an integrated approach to dispatching emergency services.

As ESB can apparently identify every property in the country (and their maps have informed everything from rural broadband to property tax) perhaps people should quote their ESB account when they need help!

More seriously... if the IT to make this happen is in use elsewhere, then what the heck have our people been up to?

(cue inter-agency fact-finding trips to Canada/Australia.... as the whatever the Brits use will be ipso facto unsuitable)

Well said, similar in this county that the council water services have a device that tells you the owner of the property as you drive past it - surely combining databases together would be a good start?

matt-dublin · 25-06-2013 05:27PM

there's a data protection issues all over the place with that statement.

sharing the databases in itself is a data protections issue that the commissioner would need to legislate on.

also if these devices do in fact exist, I straight away would be lodging a complaint with the data protection commissioner because that in itself constitutes a breach of regulations from what I know.

26-06-2013 11:24AM

matt-dublin wrote: »

there's a data protection issues all over the place with that statement.

sharing the databases in itself is a data protections issue that the commissioner would need to legislate on.

also if these devices do in fact exist, I straight away would be lodging a complaint with the data protection commissioner because that in itself constitutes a breach of regulations from what I know.

and how is it a breech if the data owner is the one using it? AGS use the An Post product for addressing. No names, just address.

Einstein · 26-06-2013 03:12PM

There's also been about 4,000 calls in just over a month... Funny how good news and success stories don't make the news...

Capri · 26-06-2013 04:57PM

I use http://www.dishpointer.com/ to find my location ( Say I'm at Blackrock DART stn, it's location according to Dishpointer is
Latitude: 53.3030°
Longitude: -6.1786° ,
so why not map out postcodes using Lat + Lon - Blackrock DART stn would be Dublin 5330-0618 , or the GPO Latitude: 53.3494°
Longitude: -6.2607°
would be Dublin 5335-0626 .

India and the US use similar long numbers

Mumbai - August Kranti Marg - 400036

Holllywood - 90068 -

discus · 26-06-2013 08:16PM

Lat and long is old technology compared to GPS though.

Tango Alpha 51 · 26-06-2013 11:04PM

mathepac wrote: »

When I queried who was ringing me the response I got was "central ambulance control t.

I work in this control room & this would never be said. It's either ambulance control or emergency ambulance service.

GPSParamedics · 27-06-2013 09:24AM

Tango Alpha 51 wrote: »

I work in this control room & this would never be said. It's either ambulance control or emergency ambulance service.

Neither of which are correct.

iceage · 27-06-2013 10:59AM

discus wrote: »

Lat and long is old technology compared to GPS though.

But Any Satnav system these days will take Longs & Lats Discus, its just a case of punching it in. In this day and age Control should be able to flash the address/Longs & Lats/Address/Hinterland/Colour of the front door to any HSE(not sure about the privates)Ambulance Once the correct address, location of an incident has been clarified.

Tango Alpha 51 wrote: »

I work in this control room & this would never be said. It's either ambulance control or emergency ambulance service.

GPSParamedics wrote: »

Neither of which are correct.

Lads, seems to me that this might not be the best place to air the washing.. Just an observation.

mathepac · 27-06-2013 11:28AM

Tango Alpha 51 wrote: »

I work in this control room & this would never be said. It's either ambulance control or emergency ambulance service.

GPSParamedics wrote: »

Neither of which are correct.

iceage wrote: »

... Lads, seems to me that this might not be the best place to air the washing.. Just an observation.

Guys nobody, least of all your lay customer, gives a fiddler's flying fart what fancy titles you use to address each other as or brand your service with, just get ambulances to where they are needed in an appropriate time-frame. As I understand it, that's the essence of the job.

It worked for decades before there were GPS phone or sat-navs. Why are ye now hung up on varied and complex technological solutions to simple problems?

St. Leibowitz · 27-06-2013 12:33PM

mathepac wrote: »

Guys nobody, least of all your lay customer, gives a fiddler's flying fart what fancy titles you use to address each other as or brand your service with, just get ambulances to where they are needed in an appropriate time-frame. As I understand it, that's the essence of the job.

It worked for decades before there were GPS phone or sat-navs. Why are ye now hung up on varied and complex technological solutions to simple problems?

Did you read the thread ?? I don't work with any emergency service, but from reading this and other threads, what I've gleaned is that in cities and large towns with established address systems, things are generally OK. However, even in cities, new developments can be a disaster, with different street names depending on which direction you're approching from (built by and named by different developers), unmarked streets and roads, unnumbered houses etc.

Then move to the countryside, with lots of new houses being built, and no system to record them.

It worked for decades before there were GPS phone or sat-navs. Why are ye now hung up on varied and complex technological solutions to simple problems?

The problem is that it sorta worked for decades, and the errors and difficulties with addressing were not highlighted. In rural areas, many crews knew their neighbours, and if really stuck could knock on a door and get directions. What's the chances of someone knowing other people in a locality now ??

The problems now _are not the same_ as the problems decades ago. The problems may very well be simple, but the solution is not.

I fully accept that mistakes can be made, and mistakes fall into a different category to what's mainly being discussed here, which it the lack of a coherent and countrywide addressing system.

Tango Alpha 51 · 27-06-2013 04:53PM

GPSParamedics wrote: »

Neither of which are correct.

Tell me then what it should be as obviously i & my colleagues have been doing wrong for years ?

Tango Alpha 51 · 27-06-2013 04:57PM

mathepac wrote: »

Guys nobody, least of all your lay customer, gives a fiddler's flying fart what fancy titles you use to address each other as or brand your service with, just get ambulances to where they are needed in an appropriate time-frame. As I understand it, that's the essence of the job.

It worked for decades before there were GPS phone or sat-navs. Why are ye now hung up on varied and complex technological solutions to simple problems?

Mathepac,

No one in the service is hung up on varied & complex technological solutions to simple problems as you put it. To what fancy titles are you alluding too? Since your obviously an expert in the workings of the National Ambulance Service, then you'll be well aware of the shortcomings in the fleet, staff & equipment coupled with being delayed at the emergency department means ambulances can't get to where their needed in an appropriate timeframe

Capri · 29-06-2013 07:18AM

1) I saw a girl being hit by a bus and as I drove on down the street ( I was on a job, others had rushed over to her ) I phoned 112 and the operator asked me if I could see if the girl was badly injured ( I was now 4 streets away :mad: ) I told him I'D done my part, up to him to decide to dispatch and ambulance or not ( got the feeling he was waiting for 'untrained paramedic' me to assess her injuries before dispatching an ambulance )

2) GPS / Location etc. I live in the country parts and there's numerous lanes, Y-junctions etc all over. When my mother was sick I left a detailed word by word 'script' of her location for her/her friend to read when she called for an ambulance. Like this

'1)Dial 999
2)"I need ambulance service for Wicklow town area"
3) Ambulance control answers
4)"I need an Ambulance, I've breathing problems associated with a heart valve problem. My location is Ballyhigh. That's 40meters up the Roundwood road leading from Byrnes pub at the Tighmin Y-junction. My GPS location is 53-06 and -06 -79 and the name on the house is 'Grow wild', it has white gate pillars,and the outside light will be on"
5) Switch on outside light
6) When Ambulance arrives give them your 'Medications info sheet'

I did this after an Ambulance 'couldn't find the house' after the first call , luckily I was there to go out on the road that time but I did the sheet for her as I mightn't be there next time.

I've since done this for other neighbours as in an emergency people mightn't be able to think straight ( One recent one I've done is for a neighbour whose access from one direction is 'off the motorway, thru the village and at the 3rd roundabout, go over the motorway, and first right when you get to the other side', access from the other side is 'Junction 35, first left off roundabout and first right' )

These are only examples

so don't start looking up directions and telling me I'm wrong :P:P

matt-dublin · 29-06-2013 07:40AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

and how is it a breech if the data owner is the one using it? AGS use the An Post product for addressing. No names, just address.

The an post product, goedirectory I think only spits out addresses.

If the other one that I was referring to was issuing out names and addresses outside someone's house it's a data protection issue if the data is shared on mass

Bang Bang · 29-06-2013 11:17AM

Capri wrote: »

1) I saw a girl being hit by a bus and as I drove on down the street ( I was on a job, others had rushed over to her ) I phoned 112 and the operator asked me if I could see if the girl was badly injured ( I was now 4 streets away :mad: ) I told him I'D done my part, up to him to decide to dispatch and ambulance or not ( got the feeling he was waiting for 'untrained paramedic' me to assess her injuries before dispatching an ambulance )

What a terrible attitude to have and to aim towards the Emergency Medical Controller (EMC). I did mention earlier that I have seen EMC's come under attack in other media but now it's becoming frequent here.

Perhaps you should educate yourself in how the Ambulance Service works before you come on here attacking those who work in it.

Whilst the EMC is asking the subscriber questions the Emergency Medical Dispatcher is working on dispatching an ambulance. The EMC would be using the Advanced Medical Priority Dispatch System (AMPDS) which collects data to pass on to the responding Paramedic or Advanced Paramedic both of whom may be calculating drugs and dosages that may be needed on scene and go over their course of treatment prior to arrival but on route to the scene. The AMPDS also determines what level of practitioner is required, some ambulances are Paramedic level whilst others are Advanced Paramedic. The AMPDS will also determine what other agencies may be required, the Fire Service for example.

Although a subscriber may have passed by a scene you would be surprised how much information they have retained and the EMC using the AMPDS would be able to draw the information from the subscriber.

The attitude by some subscribers of 'just get the ambulance here with none of your questions' type of attitude may actually delay appropriate care.

mathepac · 29-06-2013 12:13PM

St. Leibowitz wrote: »

... However, even in cities, new developments can be a disaster, with different street names depending on which direction you're approching from (built by and named by different developers), unmarked streets and roads, unnumbered houses etc.

Then move to the countryside, with lots of new houses being built, and no system to record them. ...

So the planning departments in the various local authorities, part of the public service, leave centralised ambulance control and other emergency services with problems. But wait, they are part of the public service too. So the real problem is that the public service lacks joined up thinking, planning and inter-departmental cooperation. That is not news.

They may have different political masters with differing priorities, but all sections of the public service cooperate when their pay is up for discussion. Why can't they cooperate to solve problems of their own making, especially if lives and well-being are at risk?

St. Leibowitz wrote: »

... The problem is that it sorta worked for decades, and the errors and difficulties with addressing were not highlighted. In rural areas, many crews knew their neighbours, and if really stuck could knock on a door and get directions. What's the chances of someone knowing other people in a locality now ??...

So decades later the system still sorta works, summa the time,

Someone has already mentioned the ESB or what ever they call themselves this week. Their meter-readers and emergency crews have intimate knowledge of every high-road, bye-road, boreen and goat track in the country where customers live. Why not use their system of addressing? Posting meter location codes outside every building in the country would be a start. Texting this or reading it out to a dispatcher gives an accurate geo-location immediately.

Let another agency with intimate knowledge of the uninhabited bits look after these areas. The obvious choice would be the local authority. But wait, they used to run the ambulance services until they were centralised. So the answer to centralisation problems is to decentralise.

There you go job done, problems solved

St. Leibowitz wrote: »

... I fully accept that mistakes can be made, and mistakes fall into a different category to what's mainly being discussed here, which it the lack of a coherent and countrywide addressing system.

I don't agree. See my ready-made solution above.

Capri · 30-06-2013 08:25AM

BB ( I got the feeling he was waiting for 'untrained paramedic', me, to assess her injuries before dispatching an ambulance )

'I got the feeling' is what I said by the way the telephonist asked me the question - If he'd said 'There's an ambulance on the way' first then it might have sounded better (- to the layman, who's not interested in 'Paramedic' 'Advanced Paramedic' or any other title other than AMBULANCE )

Ambulances being sent to the wrong places

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