Something needs to be done about nightclub groping

Femme_Fatale · 31-05-2013 05:49PM

Systemic Risk wrote: »

Im not trying to derail the thread, start an argument or take away from the terrible behaviour described here but i would like to pointvout ladies are very guilty of the exact same behaviour. I worked as security in bars for a few years in college and i was constantly getting groped, pinched, my ass slapped, u name it by drunk girls and i saw it happen to plenty of male customers. I found it anniying also but there is more of an acceptance of the behaviour when girls do it. Anyway i just wanted to make the point. Ill see myself out of the lounge, good night.

I think that's a fair point. Only focusing on when it's done by men makes it look like it's only done by men. Why not a focus on when it's done by anyone? I have read the charter and I don't think mentioning when women grope men (or women) in a nightclub in any way belittles the experiences of those who have had to deal with it from men.

I totally understand the "whataboutery" thing that's prevalent on the 'net (e.g. "Why no complaints about men's bodies being analysed?" - answer: because there is way, way more of it when it comes to women) but this is a phenomenon that affects both sexes.

31-05-2013 05:58PM

I don't think there is an acceptance of it in here anyway, we've almost all made it clear it's still not ok when women do it

Rayne Wooney · 31-05-2013 06:04PM

In a nightclub from a woman's perspective, is there a difference between an intentional tap on the bum and outright groping and not going away without you threatening to smack him?

Would one be as serious as the other and if fines/Garda involvement was brought in would you report either one if it happened to you?

rox5 · 31-05-2013 09:18PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

I can't believe I'm defending someone that gropes people on a night out, but groping a person does not automatically lead to rape or abuse.

I think it's a normal human reaction to feel bad for injuring someone...

I know you right, it does not automatically lead to that but there was one story over in England of a girl who said she got attacked by a guy who was previously rubbing against her in the pub and got angry with her when she rejected him.

So while some are just being pervy, other rare individuals are just sickos altogether.

jackofalltrades · 31-05-2013 09:35PM

Handsome Bob wrote: »

I always felt that's a slightly simplistic view. If a friend does something wrong while drunk, I don't see it as them showing their true colours: I see it as a combination of the drink, whatever mood someone might be in or whatever they might be going through a certain time.

I mean I'm sure you've seen friends do messed up things when they've been drunk, do you hold it against them and decide right, that person has shown their true colours? If so, it seems a bit ludicrous to me that you'd take one negative instance over countless positive memories and decide that the former is who the person really is.

I've seen friends do silly things when drunk. But I've stopped hanging around with one person because they were repeatedly aggressive and another person who groped women. Both had unresolved personal issues. Both also showed no remorse/shame when sober and told about what they had done.

If drink genuinely seriously affected how a person behaved, I would expect serious embarrassment and for them to stop drinking.

ToxicPaddy · 01-06-2013 12:44PM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I've seen friends do silly things when drunk. But I've stopped hanging around with one person because they were repeatedly aggressive and another person who groped women. Both had unresolved personal issues. Both also showed no remorse/shame when sober and told about what they had done.

If drink genuinely seriously affected how a person behaved, I would expect serious embarrassment and for them to stop drinking.

I'm of the same mindset.

A friend of mine from school turned into an aggressive a*shole when he had a few drinks in him. It got to the stage where you were guaranteed there was going to be some sort of argument or an all out fight when he was in a group when we were out. In the end, I had enough and walked away.

Another mate from college got very aggressive towards women when they rejected his advances if he had been drinking.

I tried explaining it to him what was happening when he was sober and tried keeping an eye on him when he was drinking but in the end I got fed up and I actually ended up getting him barred from the main student night club which I worked in, because even though he was a mate, he was dangerous with drink in him and I was afraid he would go too far some day with some poor girl who just simply said no.

throwa20 · 04-06-2013 06:39PM

Last year, my GF and I were out in a nighclub, minding our own business. We had just finished dancing to a song. Our arms were still around each other and we were standing facing each other. Really quickly, some guy walked past us and put his hand straight up my girlfriends skirt. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he was trying to pinch her ass. I n actual fact, he ended up touching her vagina.

I was not aware this had happened as he touched her as he was walking past. The first I knew of it was when my GF quickly turned around and slapped him in the face. I looked on in shock. The guy went straight in to the toilets. My GF then told me what happened. I immediately went to the nearest bouncer and reported the incident to him. He assured me that they would deal with it.

When the guy came out of the toilets, we saw him go straight to the same bouncer and report my GF for slapping him. I went up and argued the point with him and the bouncer.

At that point, the owner of the club came along. My GF told him exactly what had happened, to which he laughed and said ''take it as a compliment''. I was furious. I waited for him to move on, at which point the guy had also gone elsewhere in the club.

I took a quick walk around the club, found the guy, and knocked him out with a right hook to his jaw. He buckled immediately, and a stool prevented him from smashing his head directly on the floor.

In the aftermath, the other bouncers were sympathetic to our story, and one or two voiced their support that the guy should have been removed from the club.

But to no avail. We were barred from the nightclub, and the groper was not.

To rub salt into the wounds, the owner asked him if he would press charges against us. I replied that we would bring a sexual assault case against the guy.

We later found out from a bouncer that the guy didn't want to press charges because he had a pregnant wife at home.

So for all those people who say they would kick the crap out of a groper - be very careful. I almost found out to my cost that things can easily backfire if you go seeking justice.

That said, I don't feel bad that I knocked him out. He was a complete scumbag. I don't feel like I stooped to his level by hitting him, because we are a quiet couple and we were just out to have fun together. We never interfere or hassle other people; we don't even drink alcohol ffs. That man instigated the incident, and the owner refused to take action. We are quiet people, but we are not doormats, and I would die or go to prison before I will let another man sexually assault my GF or my family right in front of my eyes.

I'm not sure if I can name the club in question here...

Galwayguy35 · 04-06-2013 07:37PM

throwa20 wrote: »

Last year, my GF and I were out in a nighclub, minding our own business. We had just finished dancing to a song. Our arms were still around each other and we were standing facing each other. Really quickly, some guy walked past us and put his hand straight up my girlfriends skirt. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he was trying to pinch her ass. I n actual fact, he ended up touching her vagina.

I was not aware this had happened as he touched her as he was walking past. The first I knew of it was when my GF quickly turned around and slapped him in the face. I looked on in shock. The guy went straight in to the toilets. My GF then told me what happened. I immediately went to the nearest bouncer and reported the incident to him. He assured me that they would deal with it.

When the guy came out of the toilets, we saw him go straight to the same bouncer and report my GF for slapping him. I went up and argued the point with him and the bouncer.

At that point, the owner of the club came along. My GF told him exactly what had happened, to which he laughed and said ''take it as a compliment''. I was furious. I waited for him to move on, at which point the guy had also gone elsewhere in the club.

I took a quick walk around the club, found the guy, and knocked him out with a right hook to his jaw. He buckled immediately, and a stool prevented him from smashing his head directly on the floor.

In the aftermath, the other bouncers were sympathetic to our story, and one or two voiced their support that the guy should have been removed from the club.

But to no avail. We were barred from the nightclub, and the groper was not.

To rub salt into the wounds, the owner asked him if he would press charges against us. I replied that we would bring a sexual assault case against the guy.

We later found out from a bouncer that the guy didn't want to press charges because he had a pregnant wife at home.

So for all those people who say they would kick the crap out of a groper - be very careful. I almost found out to my cost that things can easily backfire if you go seeking justice.

That said, I don't feel bad that I knocked him out. He was a complete scumbag. I don't feel like I stooped to his level by hitting him, because we are a quiet couple and we were just out to have fun together. We never interfere or hassle other people; we don't even drink alcohol ffs. That man instigated the incident, and the owner refused to take action. We are quiet people, but we are not doormats, and I would die or go to prison before I will let another man sexually assault my GF or my family right in front of my eyes.

I'm not sure if I can name the club in question here...

And what would you have done if he had smashed his head against the ground and maybe ended up in a coma or dead?

If you had decked him in the heat of the moment I could see how that would happen but you sought him out to hit him after a period of time had passed.

GalwayGuy2 · 04-06-2013 07:53PM

And, from the sound of it, he was drinking alcohol and you weren't. It could've ended awful for you when you add in thhe fact you had time to cool down, and you purposely waited for the bouncer to leave.

Tbh, a guy like that isn't worth getting in trouble over.

Pawwed Rig · 04-06-2013 08:02PM

I have to agree with Galwayguy here. We are into pre meditated territory here. I would think a call to the Guards about the incident would be more affective anyway. See how his pregnant girlfriend likes her bf being up in court on a sexual assault charges. These are charges that can ruin someones life pretty quickly

Meauldsegosha · 04-06-2013 08:52PM

throwa20 wrote: »

Last year, my GF and I were out in a nighclub, minding our own business. We had just finished dancing to a song. Our arms were still around each other and we were standing facing each other. Really quickly, some guy walked past us and put his hand straight up my girlfriends skirt. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he was trying to pinch her ass. I n actual fact, he ended up touching her vagina.

I was not aware this had happened as he touched her as he was walking past. The first I knew of it was when my GF quickly turned around and slapped him in the face. I looked on in shock. The guy went straight in to the toilets. My GF then told me what happened. I immediately went to the nearest bouncer and reported the incident to him. He assured me that they would deal with it.

When the guy came out of the toilets, we saw him go straight to the same bouncer and report my GF for slapping him. I went up and argued the point with him and the bouncer.

At that point, the owner of the club came along. My GF told him exactly what had happened, to which he laughed and said ''take it as a compliment''. I was furious. I waited for him to move on, at which point the guy had also gone elsewhere in the club.

I took a quick walk around the club, found the guy, and knocked him out with a right hook to his jaw. He buckled immediately, and a stool prevented him from smashing his head directly on the floor.

In the aftermath, the other bouncers were sympathetic to our story, and one or two voiced their support that the guy should have been removed from the club.

But to no avail. We were barred from the nightclub, and the groper was not.

To rub salt into the wounds, the owner asked him if he would press charges against us. I replied that we would bring a sexual assault case against the guy.

We later found out from a bouncer that the guy didn't want to press charges because he had a pregnant wife at home.

So for all those people who say they would kick the crap out of a groper - be very careful. I almost found out to my cost that things can easily backfire if you go seeking justice.

That said, I don't feel bad that I knocked him out. He was a complete scumbag. I don't feel like I stooped to his level by hitting him, because we are a quiet couple and we were just out to have fun together. We never interfere or hassle other people; we don't even drink alcohol ffs. That man instigated the incident, and the owner refused to take action. We are quiet people, but we are not doormats, and I would die or go to prison before I will let another man sexually assault my GF or my family right in front of my eyes.

I'm not sure if I can name the club in question here...

You were standing facing each other when he walked passed, put his hand up your girlfriends skirt, touched her virgina and you didn't notice. Something doesn't add up in that scenario.

Either way you sought out this man to attack him which does make you as bad as him.

Femme_Fatale · 04-06-2013 09:15PM

Meauldsegosha wrote: »

You were standing facing each other when he walked passed, put his hand up your girlfriends skirt, touched her virgina and you didn't notice. Something doesn't add up in that scenario.

Either way you sought out this man to attack him which does make you as bad as him.

No it doesn't. Unwanted groping of a stranger is worse than a provoked attack.

That poster shouldn't have sought the other guy out and assaulted him (although his rage can be understood, especially when the guy was going to get away with it) but he obviously isn't "as bad".

Wibbs · 04-06-2013 09:30PM

Do NOT name the club please.

Meauldsegosha · 04-06-2013 09:30PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

No it doesn't. Unwanted groping of a stranger is worse than a provoked attack.

That poster shouldn't have sought the other guy out and assaulted him (although his rage can be understood, especially when the guy was going to get away with it) but he obviously isn't "as bad".

Perhaps I should have qualified my statement with "in my opinion" he is as bad as the other man. The poster sought the man out and punched him so hard he nearly smached his face into the ground. I find that behaviour as abhorent as the man who groped his girlfriend.

04-06-2013 09:50PM

Meauldsegosha wrote: »

You were standing facing each other when he walked passed, put his hand up your girlfriends skirt, touched her virgina and you didn't notice. Something doesn't add up in that scenario.

Either way you sought out this man to attack him which does make you as bad as him.

Extreme provocation is a long way from unprovoked sex assault.

If a member of my family was hurt I think it would take more than a few minutes for the fury to subside, so I can understand that he wasn't acting with the cold light of reason when he sought the guy out after realising the situation wasn't being taken seriously.

Understanding the impulse doesn't mean I condone the act btw.

Meauldsegosha · 04-06-2013 10:03PM

Candie wrote: »

Extreme provocation is a long way from unprovoked sex assault.

If a member of my family was hurt I think it would take more than a few minutes for the fury to subside, so I can understand that he wasn't acting with the cold light of reason when he sought the guy out after realising the situation wasn't being taken seriously.

Understanding the impulse doesn't mean I condone the act btw.

I don't believe there was extreme provocation. The posters girlfriend had dealt with the situation by slapping the man who groped her. The poster then waited for the man to come out of the toilet, the argued the point with the bouncer, the manager, more boucers before seeking the man out and punching him. To me that is someone who has anger management issues which need to be dealt with.

04-06-2013 10:12PM

Meauldsegosha wrote: »

I don't believe there was extreme provocation. The posters girlfriend had dealt with the situation by slapping the man who groped her. The poster then waited for the man to come out of the toilet, the argued the point with the bouncer, the manager, more boucers before seeking the man out and punching him. To me that is someone who has anger management issues which need to be dealt with.

I don't think we get to decide how provoked someone else feels.

Rage and anger are hardly conducive to rational behaviour. Especially when you add in the element of frustration when the incident was brushed aside by staff. I'd be very provoked if I was randomly sexually assaulted, or my mother was, or anyone else I was close to, I think most people would. His girlfriend was most likely very upset, as one would expect after being the victim of a sex assault, especially one that wasn't being taken seriously.

I'm not defending the action, I'm just visualising the scenario and I have no problem believing he was acting irrationally borne of anger, frustration, rage, and whatever else might go through someone's head when someone they love has been hurt by someone who apparently walked away scot free. I think it's understandable, even if it wasn't the best way to react.

Meauldsegosha · 04-06-2013 10:21PM

Candie wrote: »

I don't think we get to decide how provoked someone else feels.

Rage and anger are hardly conducive to rational behaviour. Especially when you add in the element of frustration when the incident was brushed aside by staff. I'd be very provoked if I was randomly sexually assaulted, or my mother was, or anyone else I was close to, I think most people would. His girlfriend was most likely very upset, as one would expect after being the victim of a sex assault, especially one that wasn't being taken seriously.

I'm not defending the action, I'm just visualising the scenario and I have no problem believing he was acting irrationally borne of anger, frustration, rage, and whatever else might go through someone's head when someone they love has been hurt by someone who apparently walked away scot free. I think it's understandable, even if it wasn't the best way to react.

But he didn't get to walk away scott free the girlfriend had dealt with the situation when she slapped him. And you are defending the action by using the excuse of anger and frustration to explain the action.

sasta le · 04-06-2013 10:23PM

The whole it was the drink and having the craic excuse that passes in this country

04-06-2013 10:26PM

Meauldsegosha wrote: »

But he didn't get to walk away scott free the girlfriend had deal with the situation when she slapped him. And you are defending the action by using the excuse of anger and frustration to explain the action.

You are mistaking reasons for excuses here. Understanding is not the same as defending.

Most people would consider a slap as an inadequate way of dealing with an unprovoked, random, sexual assault and would understand the frustration the guy felt at the incident being brushed off.

Meauldsegosha · 04-06-2013 10:38PM

Candie wrote: »

You are mistaking reasons for excuses here. Understanding is not the same as defending.

Most people would consider a slap as an inadequate way of dealing with an unprovoked, random, sexual assault and would understand the frustration the guy felt at the incident being brushed off.

Firstly that's just semantics.

Secondly having read through the thread a lot of people advocate slapping the groper as a adequate way of dealing with the situation.

In my opinion the actions of both men was despicable.

04-06-2013 10:41PM

Meauldsegosha wrote: »

Firstly that's just semantics.

Secondly having read through the thread a lot of people advocate slapping the groper as a adequate way of dealing with the situation.

In my opinion the actions of both men was despicable.

No, it's not just semantics, it's the difference between understanding an action and condoning it.

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I don't think you'll find much support for the assertion that each was as bad as the other.

throwa20 · 04-06-2013 10:45PM

Meauldsegosha wrote: »

But he didn't get to walk away scott free the girlfriend had dealt with the situation when she slapped him.

Yes, and then he tried to get her (the victim) kicked out of the club for defending herself.

In the cold light of day, I would have reported him to the guards. But I was justified in what I did at that moment.

I would be in mental torture if I let someone brazenly assault my GF and try to finger us as the troublemakers.

We did not seek trouble that night, we were minding our own business. That man can blame himself for any injuries he sustained. Maybe he thinks twice about assaulting other girls now.

throwa20 · 04-06-2013 10:52PM

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I would think a call to the Guards about the incident would be more affective anyway.

I disagree. The guy would have been gone by the time they arrived and the club owner showed no interest in helping us.

We went through the right channels and were fobbed off.

Meauldsegosha wrote: »

You were standing facing each other when he walked passed, put his hand up your girlfriends skirt, touched her virgina and you didn't notice. Something doesn't add up in that scenario.

Yes,he pinched her underneath her skirt.

Believe it or not, I wasn't looking up my girlfriend's skirt in the nightclub :rolleyes::rolleyes:

How the hell do you expect someone to see that?I mean, should I have been watching the hands of every passing guy...?:rolleyes:

kat.mac · 04-06-2013 11:25PM

I cannot understand how some posters are equating the initial sexual assault with the punch that was thrown as a result.

I'm certainly not condoning the action, but I know I would have done it if I was in his shoes and the victim was my sister or best friend. Just to be clear, that does not make it the correct course of action, I just know that the objectively correct course of action would not be foremost in my mind at that point.

Punching the scumbag cannot be considered as despicable an act as the sexual assault, and he can absolutely blame himself for getting the punch.

GreeBo · 05-06-2013 12:01AM

So two assaults make a right now on here?
Can you not see how this just prolongs and propagates issues?
The guy who was knocked out has some mates who, in the heat of the moment of course, see their friend decked by some random dude, they of course deck him back...soon everyone is punching everyone.
And this is a logical response in a civilized society how exactly?
You say that you are not a scumbag, unless defending yourself from direct attack, physically assaulting someone is a scumbag thing to do. We are not monkeys, you are supposed to engage your brain and not go primal. Anger management issues imo.

05-06-2013 12:04AM

GreeBo wrote: »

So two assaults make a right now on here?

Nobody suggested that afaik.

Neeson · 05-06-2013 12:06AM

I can't believe people are saying its acceptable to hit someone when they've groped you.

Weren't you taught when you were young not to be hitting people back. "Oh miss, he hit me so I can hit him back. No".

kat.mac · 05-06-2013 12:29AM

GreeBo wrote: »

So two assaults make a right now on here?

I can't believe people are saying its acceptable to hit someone when they've groped you.

How anyone could read my post and say ^this^ is beyond me. I CLEARLY said (twice) that punching the guy was not the right course of action. I could not have made myself any clearer.

GreeBo · 05-06-2013 12:33AM

kat.mac wrote: »

How anyone could read my post and say ^this^ is beyond me. I CLEARLY said (twice) that punching the guy was not the right course of action. I could not have made myself any clearer.

Quick check...yep, no one has quoted you and indeed neither of us referenced your posts. You do see the other people posting on here right?
Its not *all* about you :rolleyes:

/edit
eh what now?

kat.mac wrote: »

I know I would have done it if I was in his shoes and the victim was my sister or best friend. Just to be clear, that does not make it the correct course of action, I just know that the objectively correct course of action would not be foremost in my mind at that point.

As I said, you are not an animal, you are supposed to act like an evolved human and not resort immediately to physical violence.

Something needs to be done about nightclub groping

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