Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

Obliq · 06-05-2013 07:42PM

lazygal wrote: »

the C in the European case, wasn't able to get a straight answer on whether her life was in danger by being forced to remain pregnant - she wasn't able to get a termination here and travelled.

And then had to take it to the ECHR. Yup, that's what it takes to be heard in Ireland. Having trouble with your health AND pregnant? Not sure if you can have treatment while pregnant? Can't talk to anyone in medical practice about abortion? RYANAIR FOR YOU, HUSSY. And then take your complaints to Europe.

I think there are women, couples and families traveling every day of the week for life saving terminations - its just NOT talked about.

Fixed yer post?!
And you can sing it sister. The uncomfortable truth that women with CRISIS pregnancies (whether for physical or mental health reasons) don't/won't go near their GP's or hospitals because they know they have to take action all by themselves. Literally, in some cases - poor things. :mad:

YumCha · 06-05-2013 08:12PM

According to this Irish Times article, one of the amendments Fine Gael is seeking is a 'review of the legislation after 12 months if abortion figures escalate...'

Face, meet palm...

06-05-2013 09:41PM

Just sent an email to all of the party leaders, plus a number of prominent female ministers and TDs.

As Lazygal says, the women who travel don't talk about it, so we don't know the kind of situations they face. It's totally understandable because it's a very personal matter and there's still a stigma from certain quarters. But I think that a lot of people in this country don't quite grasp the sheer numbers of women who have had abortions. They assume it hasn't touched their family of circle of friends, but it almost certainly has, and it could be a daughter, sister or mother.

Truley · 07-05-2013 10:02AM

YumCha wrote: »

According to this Irish Times article, one of the amendments Fine Gael is seeking is a 'review of the legislation after 12 months if abortion figures escalate...'

Face, meet palm...

Do you know what drives me nuts, the average Irish adult can barely bring themselves to make a Dentist appointment, yet people genuinely think that we're going to flock to abortion clinics on a Saturday afternoon?! as if it's a new idea that never occurred to us before. It's incredibly insulting to women, we can't be trusted to make the right decision for our own lives and our own bodies. I've given up following it in the news because it's just frustrating and depressing.

rainbow kirby · 07-05-2013 10:09AM

YumCha wrote: »

According to this Irish Times article, one of the amendments Fine Gael is seeking is a 'review of the legislation after 12 months if abortion figures escalate...'

Face, meet palm...

So if too many women need their lives saved (which is all the new legislation allows for) then they want a review of the legislation.

What the fcuk is wrong with people?

wolfpawnat · 07-05-2013 10:15AM

The thing is, I don't think we can ever deny that there will be an increase in people looking for the service here in Ireland even if there is only a limited amount of it available. But to think that it is so, as my nan says WillyNilly for a woman to request it, is laughable.

It is not as simple as becoming pregnant, then the girls saying they are off to Spain for a week and you thinking a pregnancy is inconvenient and off to the doc for an abortion. But that is the way some people think pro-choicers are about it.

loveisdivine · 07-05-2013 10:52AM

I just wanted to say that I feel insulted that so many pro-life people seem to think that people don't know what abortion really is and that if we did know then we would be against it.
I find it insulting because I know exactly what abortion is, I know all the "evil" details of what happens. Its so condescending!

kat.mac · 07-05-2013 11:10AM

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/misogyny-behind-state-controls-on-women-s-reproductive-rights-1.1381768

Dr Jacky Jones article. I could cry with gratitude that she has written this.

ChrisNYK7 · 07-05-2013 11:22AM

The government is using suicide as excuse, just bring it in it's clearly not a big deal, you can't kill something that is not alive.

LittleBook · 07-05-2013 12:06PM

kat.mac wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/misogyny-behind-state-controls-on-women-s-reproductive-rights-1.1381768

Dr Jacky Jones article. I could cry with gratitude that she has written this.

I love Dr Jones, just came here to post that

Why is Ireland so determined to deny women full rights over their reproductive health? The simple answer is fear. Like it or not there is a widespread belief that unless the powerful ability to become pregnant and have a child is controlled by the State, Pandora’s jar will open, unleashing all kinds of pestilences and chaos. Everything was great until Eve came along. These myths are at the root of the misogyny and sexism prevalent at every level of Irish society. Because women can’t be trusted their reproductive health must be controlled.

All EU countries, with the exception of Ireland and Malta, allow abortion to preserve a woman’s physical and mental health, and in cases of rape, incest, and foetal impairment. Irish women are forced to continue with a pregnancy when their physical and mental health is at risk or they are carrying a non-viable foetus. Unfortunately the Protection of Life during Pregnancy Bill 2013 will not protect or vindicate women’s reproductive rights. The name change – removing the word “maternal” from the title – means there is still ambiguity about whether the woman’s life or that of the foetus is prioritised. It is only a matter of time before another Irish woman asks the European Court of Human Rights to protect and vindicate her right to terminate a pregnancy because her health, as distinct from her life, is not protected by the proposed legislation. In the meantime, Irish women will have to rely on the kindness of strangers in the UK.

Here's another piece she wrote back in January

Misogyny is defined as distrust and dislike, even hatred, of women and girls. Some contributors to the committee hearings demonstrated misogynistic attitudes, insinuating that women are devious and would try to manipulate doctors, pretending to be suicidal in order to obtain an abortion.

There is no evidence that this happens in countries where abortion is widely available. The UN World Abortion Policies 2011 report shows there are no significant differences between Ireland’s current abortion rates and those of Austria, Germany and Greece, which permit abortion at the woman’s request. In addition, 96 per cent of developed countries, including Europe, permit abortion to save a woman’s life, and 88 per cent permit abortion to preserve her mental and physical health. Ireland’s current abortion laws are the same as Afghanistan, Angola and Somalia, all deeply misogynistic societies.

lazygal · 07-05-2013 12:37PM

A brilliant piece, was just discussing it this morning.

FG canvassers were out in our area over the weekend, we made sure to make our feelings known, which clearly caused some discomfort, but they can't say both sides aren't making representations and allow the anti choicers to dominate. I urge others to do the same.

wolfpawnat · 07-05-2013 12:57PM

ChrisNYK7 wrote: »

The government is using suicide as excuse, just bring it in it's clearly not a big deal, you can't kill something that is not alive.

A foetus is alive. :rolleyes: It is just a case of who people see has the greater say in life, the foetus or it's fully conscious mother.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 07-05-2013 02:44PM

nowanathiest wrote: »

Irish men in general are a feckless lot and most don't use condoms. Contraceptive responsibility is still overwhelmingly left to the female. These same gentlemen would probably claim to be pro-life supporters if quizzed.

Ah now that's a sweeping generalisation and a bit too tabloid for a serious discussion like this.

Pretty much all the lads I know are serious regarding contraception and carry/use condoms. I got the pill at the chemist the last time for my GF as it was handier for me. We also split the cost of that.

Granted there are absolute idiots out there, maybe you just happen to know a higher percentage of them than the average person?

Obliq · 07-05-2013 02:51PM

Anastasia Tinkling Sheriff wrote: »

Granted there are absolute idiots out there, maybe you just happen to know a higher percentage of them than the average person?

Jaysus, maybe we've been riding the same men nowanatheist? :eek:

Or maybe there's just a sadly low percentage of young/not so young Irish men who take responsibility.....very nice to hear you and your friends do Super sonic. TBH and I hate to say it, but I live in rural Ireland. This is a common complaint and "equality" may be at least 10yrs behind down here in the shticks.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 07-05-2013 03:11PM

Obliq wrote: »

Jaysus, maybe we've been riding the same men nowanatheist? :eek:

Or maybe there's just a sadly low percentage of young/not so young Irish men who take responsibility.....very nice to hear you and your friends do Super sonic. TBH and I hate to say it, but I live in rural Ireland. This is a common complaint and "equality" may be at least 10yrs behind down here in the shticks.

You know that was at the back of my mind alright, the whole "rural Ireland" thing.

I grew up in a rural area and there are some lads that do have a fairly relaxed attitude at best regarding contraception. The girls too to a lesser extent.

I'll stick my neck out and say that these lads probably aren't very intelligent and take a macho attitude to contraception. The macho attitude is probably the biggest issue. In my town there wasn't many shocks when an unexpected pregnancy happened.

My core friends back home and from my time in college were great craic and well up for wild nights out, we weren't "good, innocent catholic boys" by a long shot but we knew there was a time to be responsible and sensible and a good attitude towards contraception was definitely one of those times.

I can't fathom why people take such a lazy attitude to contraception. People fought long and hard in this country so men and women of my generation can walk into a shop/chemist/petrol station/loo and buy condoms or go to their GP for other options. It still stuns me to think once upon a time I needed to be married and have a prescription to buy a piece of latex.

One of our many phrases from college was a quote from a film I can't remember "don't be a fool wrap your tool"

Obliq · 07-05-2013 07:04PM

More like you please!

nowanathiest · 07-05-2013 08:56PM

Obliq wrote: »

Jaysus, maybe we've been riding the same men nowanatheist? :eek:

Or maybe there's just a sadly low percentage of young/not so young Irish men who take responsibility.....very nice to hear you and your friends do Super sonic. TBH and I hate to say it, but I live in rural Ireland. This is a common complaint and "equality" may be at least 10yrs behind down here in the shticks.

too funny, thank you.........could do with a laugh today!!

gcgirl · 07-05-2013 09:00PM

There's a brilliant article in the Irish Times about the 40th anniversary of contraceptives being available which basically comments how similar both the contraception argument of 1973 is to today's abortion argument, like it would open the floodgates to everyone availing of contraceptives, it's a stark reminder

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/anniversary-of-family-planning-case-brings-a-sense-of-d%C3%A9j%C3%A0-vu-1.1382006?page=3

Obliq · 07-05-2013 09:01PM

nowanathiest wrote: »

too funny, thank you.........could do with a laugh today!!

Glad to oblige! But you are in *Limerick*...I'm in Clare. Hope I'm not right!!

Anyhow, who couldn't do with a laugh when doing battle with the diehard xtians, especially "he who's name shall not be mentioned on A&A".

Ps. I meant you. I've retreated again. Well done!

*Doh, it was super-sonic who's in Lmk - faulty memory.

nowanathiest · 07-05-2013 09:10PM

tatabubbly wrote: »

My sixteen year old cousin had a baby 2 weeks ago. She's not going back to school now, and even though the baby is gorgeous and wonderful, this event probably has ruined her life.

Due to her circumstances, I'm totally pro choice... its true what a previous poster said, in the hospital they don't care about you. She had to have 2 epidurals along with the damage she suffered down there, she hasn't been able to walk properly the last 2 weeks.. They gave her an antibiotic after and didnt give her any pain relief... So in this country were life is so sacred, my little cousin will probably have to fight for everything from here on in and it shouldnt have happened. She should of had a choice. As a country we need to teach young women how to care for their bodies and also that they have choices..

You are absolutely right........there's still an unnerving attitude amongst some some medical staff of "what are you complaining about, sure haven't women been having babies forever?". But all of this goes a little deeper, particularly in rural areas. Still in Ireland the boys are revered in their families, and any eejit who is able to hold a hurley is treated as a demi-god.

Degrees or not, women are still second class citizens in this country. Growing up they lack the personal confidence of their UK or American counterparts, and this manifests itself in a lack of awareness of their own entitlement. Entitlement to be treated with a comparable respect to their male counterparts, entitlement to reive top quality medical care.......not what they may care to dole out to you if they feel like it. Entitled to know that you as an expectant mother are the priority life, not the also ran.

Truley · 08-05-2013 09:37AM

Irish Times Article...

But the reality of living without contraception was stark, both for women who were constantly pregnant and birthing, and for men who shouldered the burden of supporting large families. Dr Michael Solomons, who worked at the Rotunda Hospital, remembered a colleague who attended a birth where the baby emerged with a Guinness bottle cap on its head – its mother’s futile attempt to prevent conception.

Jesus!

ezra_pound · 08-05-2013 10:03AM

ChrisNYK7 wrote: »

The government is using suicide as excuse, just bring it in it's clearly not a big deal, you can't kill something that is not alive.

That's not what the constitution says.

nowanathiest · 08-05-2013 11:32AM

Truley wrote: »

Irish Times Article...

Jesus!

LOL, I'm sure there would be many more anecdotes. The Irish Times has run some really good balanced articles in the last few days. Full credit to them.

What the article also skimms is the families always precarious financial position. The more children they had, the less they had to give any of them and life must have been a terrible grind for both Mam & Dad.

These financial considerations are even more relevant today. So many countries are raising their retirement ages, dropping spouse pensions and demanding that citizens have X amount of years National Insurance/Social Welfare contributions. Women in particular need to be very very careful that they are planning their families carefully, getting the most our of employer pension schemes. Basically, making adequate provision for themselves in later years. How many do we see currently who can barely make ends meet? You cannot depend on the state, your partner or anyone else to do this for you.

loveisdivine · 08-05-2013 12:31PM

nowanathiest wrote: »

LOL, I'm sure there would be many more anecdotes. The Irish Times has run some really good balanced articles in the last few days. Full credit to them.

What the article also skimms is the families always precarious financial position. The more children they had, the less they had to give any of them and life must have been a terrible grind for both Mam & Dad.

These financial considerations are even more relevant today. So many countries are raising their retirement ages, dropping spouse pensions and demanding that citizens have X amount of years National Insurance/Social Welfare contributions. Women in particular need to be very very careful that they are planning their families carefully, getting the most our of employer pension schemes. Basically, making adequate provision for themselves in later years. How many do we see currently who can barely make ends meet? You cannot depend on the state, your partner or anyone else to do this for you.

Sure I thought the whole point of having kids was so you have someone to look after you when you're old :rolleyes: At least that's what I've been told numerous times, when I inform people that I'm not having children.

Fact is an awful lot of people don't really consider finances when they are thinking about having children. People seem to think the money will just appear.

meeeeh · 08-05-2013 12:56PM

There are two separate issues here. Ireland is relatively OK but one of the main concerns regarding pensions is actually low birth rate in most of the continental Europe. In that regard having more children is actually in state's interest. Those kids will be paying for our pensions and taking care of us in the same way as we are doing it for previous generations. They will be also subsidizing our health costs. Unless the model of social state completely disintegrates. On personal level though nobody can be forced to have children or to have certain number of children. Basically those of us who have children are sacrificing ourselves for the benefit of those who don't.

Seriously there is a vicious circle here, less children, higher social contributions, less money, less children... Most of the European countries will actually be in trouble in the next decades because people don't have enough children. Of course that has nothing to do with the abortion debate.

GalwayGuy2 · 08-05-2013 01:01PM

Seriously there is a vicious circle here, less children, higher social contributions, less money, less children... Most of the European countries will actually be in trouble in the next decades because people don't have enough children. Of course that has nothing to do with the abortion debate.

Ah, the flaw in the welfare state. :P

Jesus, I didn't see that side of the abortion debate at all.

nowanathiest · 08-05-2013 01:09PM

I was thinking of more immediate individual consequences

http://http://www.guardian.co.uk/women-in-leadership/2013/may/01/women-lose-out-on-pensions

an article in today's Women-In-Leadership section of UK Guardian make for sobering reading........data is relevant to UK but has a wider relevance. (Under Business Section if link here doesn't work).

wolfpawnat · 08-05-2013 01:10PM

loveisdivine wrote: »

Sure I thought the whole point of having kids was so you have someone to look after you when you're old :rolleyes: At least that's what I've been told numerous times, when I inform people that I'm not having children.

Fact is an awful lot of people don't really consider finances when they are thinking about having children. People seem to think the money will just appear.

I do enjoy that "they look after you when you're old" thing. When I say "They better be off seeing the world and doing what they want, in the country I get some fierce terrible looks

Kids are as expensive as you make them though, they don't have to cost the sun, moon and stars like some people do (I know people with 1100e buggies which I think is mad) That said, they cost quite a bit and there are many that cannot afford even the amount they do cost, or in many cases, families with 2/3 kids and cannot afford the life changes needed (bigger/another car as one example) to have another.

meeeeh · 08-05-2013 01:34PM

nowanathiest wrote: »

I was thinking of more immediate individual consequences

http://http://www.guardian.co.uk/women-in-leadership/2013/may/01/women-lose-out-on-pensions

an article in today's Women-In-Leadership section of UK Guardian make for sobering reading........data is relevant to UK but has a wider relevance. (Under Business Section if link here doesn't work).

Yes, that's why I prefer more Scandinavian model with high female employment and subsidized childcare. It is in the interest of the individual and the state.

nowanathiest · 08-05-2013 01:36PM

Found some relevant Irish data

http://www.cardi.ie/userfiles/Older%20women%20pensions%20(Web)(3).pdf

Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

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