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Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

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Comments

  • #482
    manual_man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,267 ✭✭✭✭manual_man


    username123 wrote: »
    A clump of cells does not have more of a right to life than the woman carrying them has over the autonomy of her own body.

    Was it from Patricia Caseys non scientific biased report that was actually referring to the cases of UK maternal suicide between 2006 and 2008? Because it sounds like the figure she used.

    You started as a "clump of cells", did you not?

    And no, it was definitely over a period of 25 years. Those kind of things tend to stick in your head


  • #483
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    manual_man wrote: »
    You started as a "clump of cells", did you not?

    So what?
    manual_man wrote: »
    And no, it was definitely over a period of 25 years. Those kind of things tend to stick in your head

    Well, reputable source or its just you making things up.


  • #484
    Twee.
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭Twee.


    Mod

    Let's remember a golden rule, attack the post NOT the poster. Name calling will not be tolerated.


  • #485
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    manual_man wrote: »
    Now you're just being totally stupid... At least be honest if you have an agenda

    I meant to say lives. If she dies, both her life and her foetus's potential life are lost. Note that we don't care if her health is at risk, just her life.

    Agenda? Yes, i'm most certainly pro-choice.


  • #486
    shoos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭shoos


    manual_man wrote: »
    You started as a "clump of cells", did you not?

    This argument is very shallow. What's the meaning behind it exactly? I truly believe that this argument only lasts as long as the person saying manages to avoid having the health of a woman close to them in risk due to miscarriage or other pregnancy issues. Equating a friend's life with a clump of cells will absolutely change meaning when it's a face they recognise.

    It's just a pity so many people need it to get that far before having a reality check.


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  • #487
    AK333
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭AK333


    Morag wrote: »
    then I do hope you will contact your TDs and tell them that you don't agree with the system and the laws which force women to do this.

    http://www.whoismytd.com/

    Thanks for the link. All four Waterford TD's emailed today - I'll let you all know if I get a response.

    At least if we email them, they can't turn around and pretend they didn't know what their electorate wanted. I want them to base their decision making on what we want (the electorate) not what they think is best for us!


  • #488
    kaki
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 674 ✭✭✭kaki


    I also emailed my 5 TD's (Cork South Central) last week.

    Only one bothered to reply:
    Dear kaki,

    Thank you for your email.

    Fianna Fáil is meeting tomorrow to discuss the Heads of the Bill published last night by the government.

    We will confirm our position shortly thereafter.

    Regards,

    Michael McGrath T.D.
    Constituency Office
    Main Street
    Carrigaline
    Co Cork

    Tel no: 021 4376699
    Fax no: 021 4834252
    Web: www.michaelmcgrath.ie

    Fianna Fáil Spokesperson on Finance

    i.e. we're going to wait to gauge public interest and opinion before supporting/opposing this bill.


  • #489
    lubie76
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,152 ✭✭✭lubie76


    I'm embarrassed to be Irish right now- how did we get to be this backward? Still allowing legislation to tell us what to do with our own bodies in this day and age despite what's right, fair and just for all involved. I really hope if I was ever in this situation I could make a logical and informed choice after hearing all my options and thankfully there are certain organisations who will offer unbiased advice and give people the information they need so they can make their own decisions based on this advice and good luck to them whatever they decide.
    Who do these pro life crowd think they are helping? The developed world is laughing at our backward morals especially coming from hypocrites attending a church still trying to claw their way out of a history full of corrupt sexual predators. Makes me sick to my stomach tbh.


  • #490
    emo72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭emo72


    male. can't believe we still have weeks of this to go. abortion for all on demand. let's do it.


  • #491
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Thunderbird2 wrote: »
    I only mentioned it being the parents choice to avoid any touchy feely arguments ... I completely agree its only the women's choice.( but if the man wanted the child aborted then he shouldn't be given visitation rights and have to pay maintenance since its the woman's choice to keep the child )
    It won't affect the foetus as it won't even realise what's happening .
    Can you remember being in the womb ?

    It's nice to know that men are reduced to just useless bystanders only there for financial support if needed.

    It's a poor argument to say that because a foetus is not self aware a termination doesn't affect it. A termination kills it and ANY prospect of a lfe that you and i enjoy. Using that rationale you used, people with severe mental disabilities, old people with Alzheimer's, dementia, people in comas are fair game to be terminated as they won't realise what's going on. That rationale was tried before. Don't sugar coat it.


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  • #492
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    jank wrote: »
    It's a poor argument to say that because a foetus is not self aware a termination doesn't affect it. A termination kills it and ANY prospect of a lfe that you and i enjoy. Using that rationale you used, people with severe mental disabilities, old people with Alzheimer's, dementia, people in comas are fair game to be terminated as they won't realise what's going on. That rationale was tried before. Don't sugar coat it.

    There is a difference between a living person and a foetus. And I find most arguments based on the idea that both are the same, like above, very difficult to understand. A living person is a life, a foetus is a potential life. The rate of spontaneous abortion or miscarriages in the first 20 weeks is 10-25%. Are these all dead people or are they lost potential lives?

    Do we oblige all Irish people to compromise their bodily integrity to save the lives of others? No. So why do we demand that Irish women compromise their bodily integrity to save a potential life? Take even something as small as blood donations. Imagine the outcry if these became mandatory.


  • #493
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Child benefits should be paid from conception, really, if I'm carrying a child not a foetus, surely?


  • #494
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,661 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    If the argument is that abortion kills a person and thus shouldn't be allowed, what about people who die because of organ failure? Shouldn't we then have a moral obligation to provide kidneys and bits of our livers to whomever needs them to survive?


  • #495
    nowanathiest
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85 ✭✭nowanathiest


    Ladies, the sad fact is that you are getting what you have voted for, or not voted for over the years. One lady here wonders "how this country has gotten so backward?"..........the country has always been juvenile in terms of sexual matters and women's health.

    For all of our new found wealth and progression this is still a Patrarcial society. Irish men in general are a feckless lot and most don't use condoms. Contraceptive responsibility is still overwhelmingly left to the female. These same gentlemen would probably claim to be pro-life supporters if quizzed.

    Women have been creeping abroad to obtain their abortions for decades, like criminals, instead of standing up for themselves as valid citizens of this country and demanding adequate medical services. When was the situation ever ok? for quite a long time now I have wondered why Irish women are so timid and unwilling to demand they receive adequate health solutions. Grumbling is not the same as taking action............no one is going to do it for you ladies, not least the spineless male politicians........


  • #496
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭Solair


    I know I'm repeating myself a bit here, but make sure you ring your local TDs to voice your opinion on this subject.

    There's a huge campaign being mobilised by the Catholic Church at the moment, and I think people really need to make alternative views heard.

    Your TDs are your representatives, so make sure you call them and express your opinions.

    Remember, they'll be under huge pressure from right wing groups in the coming days and weeks and they really do need a bit of moral support if they're standing up to that.

    If you need to find your local TDs :

    http://www.whoismytd.com/

    This site's brilliant. Just type in your local area (no need for your full address, just town, townland, suburb etc)

    It will give you phone, email, facebook, twitter etc etc.


  • #497
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    nowanathiest wrote: »
    Ladies, the sad fact is that you are getting what you have voted for, or not voted for over the years. One lady here wonders "how this country has gotten so backward?"..........the country has always been juvenile in terms of sexual matters and women's health.

    For all of our new found wealth and progression this is still a Patrarcial society. Irish men in general are a feckless lot and most don't use condoms. Contraceptive responsibility is still overwhelmingly left to the female. These same gentlemen would probably claim to be pro-life supporters if quizzed.
    No offence but I'd rather take care of my own protection than rely on someone who says that he is taking male contraceptives. I'm not a big fan of condoms either.

    I don't know what is this women vs men obsession. I live with an Irish man. He is even more outraged about some suggestions made lately than I am. And if I'd need abortion for medical reasons or fir whatever other reason he would be affected too, not just me. Besides most of the more vocal pro lifers seem to be women. There are far less female politicians in Dail so you get the impression it's only men v women. I'd actually think it's a lot more urban/rural or young/old divide. Irish political system doesn't help either because you vote for a person and not for a party so everybody is maximising their own re-election prospects. And it's a lot more likely that older people will vote. Writing to TD's is well and good but it is a lot more important to vote.


  • #498
    nowanathiest
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85 ✭✭nowanathiest


    meeeeh wrote: »
    No offence but I'd rather take care of my own protection than rely on someone who says that he is taking male contraceptives. I'm not a big fan of condoms either.

    I don't know what is this women vs men obsession. I'm dating Irish man. He

    My point Meeeeh, is that the abortion debate is positioning women as amoral baby killers, and implying that they are incapable of making any rational decisions. My further point regarding contraception is that many Irish men are lazy about taking responsibility, but are quite vocal in wider society about being pro-life and making women feel bad about wanting an abortion. It's a double standard that's unacceptable in this day and age.


  • #499
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    For whatever reason only part of my previous post came through so I edited it now.

    I still don't think that only or mostly men are making women feel guilty about their decisions, I think it's a lot more gender neutral. And once you polarise debate into men vs women you risk losing a large proportion of pro choice male vote.


  • #500
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,009 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    manual_man wrote: »
    And i never said they were. Let me put a hypothetical question to you. Consider that when your own mother was pregnant with you that abortion was more freely available in Ireland. She felt that the financial strain of having a child would be too much and thus decided to have an abortion. What would be your opinion if that had happened. Oh wait, you can't answer, you wouldn't be here

    Exactly! And I wouldn't know about it either.
    I was mis-daignosed at birth with a condition that is a heck of a lot more life threatening than what I actually have. I would have been a candidate to be aborted. Likewise, my mother, an ectopic twin, was a candidate. We are both firmly pro-choice. We wouldn't have known any different, would we? To put the same value on a developing human who has never experienced life or consciousness and an adult woman is ridiculous.


  • #501
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Those would be arguments are idiotic... If my mother would go on a trip she was thinking about she would end up in a plane crash and I wouldn't be here. If my grandfather wouldn't get hammered in a pub so my dad had to drive him home my parents wouldn't meet and I wouldn't be here. If my granny's boyfriend wouldn't get killed in WW2 and if my other grandfather wouldn't be spared by sheer luck German death squad, I wouldn't be here... The woulda coulda shoulda's don't affect living, the abortion legalisation does. If life starts at conception I saw at least three of my children die in the first trimester and yet it doesn't affect me half as much as a bad cold or a fall of my two actual children does. And neither were any of 'them' aware that they are dying because they were a bunch of cells and nothing more.


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  • #502
    nowanathiest
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85 ✭✭nowanathiest


    meeeeh wrote: »
    For whatever reason only part of my previous post came through so I edited it now.

    I still don't think that only or mostly men are making women feel guilty about their decisions, I think it's a lot more gender neutral. And once you polarise debate into men vs women you risk losing a large proportion of pro choice male vote.

    I will have to disagree with you here Meeeeh because the pro-life movement is being funded and progressed by the catholic church, which is comprised entirely of male leadership, and is very publically seeking to control the outcome of the current debate. They are a disproportionate but very loud voice in our society.

    The many men who may be pro-choice, may agree with you in private but are unlikely to be actively lobbying their politicians on the matter. That is why women now have no choice but to become vocal and active.

    I also agree with you that there are many women who are not pro-choice, but I think if you were to segment the numbers, they will largely be in the older generation, who are so brainwashed by religion that they are a lost generation anyway.


  • #503
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    nowanathiest wrote: »

    I also agree with you that there are many women who are not pro-choice, but I think if you were to segment the numbers, they will largely be in the older generation, who are so brainwashed by religion that they are a lost generation anyway.
    I think you'd be surprised. Just look at Youth Defence's Facebook page and you'll find plenty of people who are not old fogies.


  • #504
    nowanathiest
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85 ✭✭nowanathiest


    Handsome Bob wrote: »
    I think you'd be surprised. Just look at Youth Defence's Facebook page and you'll find plenty of people who are not old fogies.


    again, I agree with you Handsome Bob, because in the youth defence you will have idealistic, inexperienced youths who have black & white views, untempered by life experience.

    It is very easy to ask someone if they agree or disagree with abortion. In a simple world the response would be obvious. But we do not live in a simple world. Human experience is complex, hence the solutions are will often be complex too.


  • #505
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    Originally Posted by nowanathiest viewpost.gif

    For all of our new found wealth and progression this is still a Patrarcial society. Irish men in general are a feckless lot and most don't use condoms. Contraceptive responsibility is still overwhelmingly left to the female. These same gentlemen would probably claim to be pro-life supporters if quizzed.

    Irish women in general are a feckless lot and don't want to go on the pill.

    Do you see how generalized and sexist that sounds? :S

    Anyway, this is completely my own personal opinion, but I think people would be surprised at how many women would vote against abortion in a private vote. A mother, as one example of a female voter, could look at her own experience and want the choice for future women, or could look at her child and wonder if a child like that would be aborted. Most probably a badly thought out example, but you really can't generalize people's reaction to experiences.


  • #506
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    GalwayGuy2 wrote: »
    Irish women in general are a feckless lot and don't want to go on the pill.

    Do you see how generalized and sexist that sounds? :S

    Anyway, this is completely my own personal opinion, but I think people would be surprised at how many women would vote against abortion in a private vote. A mother, as one example of a female voter, could look at her own experience and want the choice for future women, or could look at her child and wonder if a child like that would be aborted. Most probably a badly thought out example, but you really can't generalize people's reaction to experiences.

    I'm not at all religious, can't stand the Irish RC at all, but to me the debate about life is distracting. There is no way around arguing that it is not a life. The problem though, is not waht it is, it is where it is.

    My fury about this is the RC pointing fingers and getting moralistic given their history of how they treated both babies and children in this country. Until they make real PENANCE for selling babies to adoptive couples both in Ireland and abroad, for their abuse in Catholic schools, for their horrific treatment of pregnant women, both wives and single, they should just shut it. The arrogance is phenomenal.

    Women in Ireland would have been better off without the 1916 revolution and if the Brits stayed here.


  • #507
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    GalwayGuy2 wrote: »
    Anyway, this is completely my own personal opinion, but I think people would be surprised at how many women would vote against abortion in a private vote.

    I totally agree with you. But what I would love to know is "what do people really think".

    It seems to me the most vocal are extreme minorities on either side. There is a huge swathe of people who are somewhere in between.

    There are huge numbers of women who have become so disheartened by it all that they dont tend to take part in any kind of online debate, they dont talk about it in real life, they switch off the tv and radio debates because its just causing so much anger.

    Boards.ie is literally the only place where I actually offer an opinion, or make any comment on abortion anymore - more so because the Ladies Lounge is full of articulate intelligent women who knock back moronic posters of the ilk of "ya made yer bed now lie on it" pretty swiftly than anything else.

    So yes, I would like to know what the truth is, not just the shouting of minority extremists that that media exposes us to.


  • #508
    nowanathiest
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85 ✭✭nowanathiest


    username123 wrote: »
    I totally agree with you. But what I would love to know is "what do people really think".

    It seems to me the most vocal are extreme minorities on either side. There is a huge swathe of people who are somewhere in between.

    There are huge numbers of women who have become so disheartened by it all that they dont tend to take part in any kind of online debate, they dont talk about it in real life, they switch off the tv and radio debates because its just causing so much anger.

    Boards.ie is literally the only place where I actually offer an opinion, or make any comment on abortion anymore - more so because the Ladies Lounge is full of articulate intelligent women who knock back moronic posters of the ilk of "ya made yer bed now lie on it" pretty swiftly than anything else.

    So yes, I would like to know what the truth is, not just the shouting of minority extremists that that media exposes us to.

    You are totally right. I have been shocked in recent years to observe how cowed Irish women have become. They will express many views in private, but will not openly express them even within their own families. One reason for this may be that the pro-life argument has implied that women who are pro-choice are somehow anti motherhood, so any woman who is pro-choice must be either mad, bad or shock horror may even have had an abortion herself.


  • #509
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    username123 wrote: »
    I totally agree with you. But what I would love to know is "what do people really think".

    It seems to me the most vocal are extreme minorities on either side. There is a huge swathe of people who are somewhere in between.

    There are huge numbers of women who have become so disheartened by it all that they dont tend to take part in any kind of online debate, they dont talk about it in real life, they switch off the tv and radio debates because its just causing so much anger.

    Boards.ie is literally the only place where I actually offer an opinion, or make any comment on abortion anymore - more so because the Ladies Lounge is full of articulate intelligent women who knock back moronic posters of the ilk of "ya made yer bed now lie on it" pretty swiftly than anything else.

    So yes, I would like to know what the truth is, not just the shouting of minority extremists that that media exposes us to.

    My home was quite full of people of my age group last night, 25-30 year olds, and the X case discussion occurred. One of the guys that was here, his mother is big psychiatrist in Munster, and I was talking to him about it for a minute, then one man (a bit of a a-hole) made a comment about "Well it is clear you're pro-life" referring to me having two kids as though that is solid proof of anything. :rolleyes:

    Not a single woman would give her opinion, including his wife. It is almost like people, more often women, are terrified to actually give their views on this subject. The lads were more forthcoming with their opinions (mostly pro-life personally, but pro-choice for society in general, as many people are), but it makes you think, there were a few women too, and they said nothing, what are they thinking? Are they worried to say they are pro-life and be attacked by their peers for not wanting women to have a choice, or are the pro-choice and frightened of being accused of being murderers!


  • #510
    shoos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭shoos


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Not a single woman would give her opinion, including his wife. It is almost like people, more often women, are terrified to actually give their views on this subject. The lads were more forthcoming with their opinions (mostly pro-life personally, but pro-choice for society in general, as many people are), but it makes you think, there were a few women too, and they said nothing, what are they thinking? Are they worried to say they are pro-life and be attacked by their peers for not wanting women to have a choice, or are the pro-choice and frightened of being accused of being murderers!

    There's only really one, maybe two, of my girl friends that would discuss abortion issues and they're both pro-choice. If the conversation ever came up in front of the many others they'd also just go silent. Recently enough, while drunk, their tongues became a little looser on the subject and it was so disappointing listening to their opinions. They basically haven't been following any of the news on abortion in Ireland, ever. Barely know Savita's name or story let alone what's been happening since. Yet they say they're pro-life and would vote against abortion. When I asked why they told me "because if I was pregnant, I'd keep it". Spent so long trying to explain to them that they already have that choice, but this is about other women and them being able to also make their own choice. Their faces were just blank, like they've literally never taken part in a discussion on it before, never given it any thought more than "well, I'd keep it sooo... no to abortion!".

    And these are the voters that really worry me. Like they're just so ignorant on the issue, they have never, ever given thought to situations like - fetal abornormalties, miscarriages, incest, rape etc.

    It's very worrying. On the other hand, the Ladies Lounge gives me hope as it shows there are enlightened Irish women out there who take this whole thing very seriously and have taken a minute to educate themselves on the issue so they can stand up for the right to decide what happens to their bodies. I'd hold out much less hope if it weren't for tLL.


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  • #511
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I had a discussion on abortion with a group of women on Friday night. We're all mothers and there were no pro life/pro choice divides. We all said that being pregnant and giving birth has made us a lot more choice leaning and most of us felt Ireland's 'safest place in the world to have a baby' myth was just that, a total myth.


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