Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

wolfpawnat · 03-05-2013 10:24AM

username123 wrote: »

I worry that the number of ordinary reasonable people who experience empathy is smaller than the ignorant masses on this issue. Im afraid there will be far too many people who have never had a moments reflection on the issue just stating "Ya made yer bed" and thinking that that counts as some kind of statement of fact. It makes me shudder.

Personal favourites of mine,

- "Sure once can happen anyone, twice and you planned it" Because never in a million years could you ever have two accidental pregnancies! :rolleyes:

- "You couldn't have taken precautions, they're 100% effective" The older generation and indeed many of those under pension age really need to be sat down and told, no, these are not 100% effective, and yes there can be babies as a result.

I hate this, and a few other arguments, there are such lunatics who ram their opinions down others throats. It is the reason I rather not get into these debates, because it is one thing to have a difference of opinion, that is normal, but those who I would see as radicals on either side who think everyone else who does not think exactly the way they do is thick stupid when they have made an informed decision drives me mad. Such as statements like "sure we all die anyway".

Morag · 03-05-2013 10:52AM

Transcript of prime time last night, which had the very brave Sarah McGuiness from TFMRIRE on, none of those ladies will be covered by the new legislation.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/05/03/where-is-your-decency/

OldNotWIse · 03-05-2013 10:55AM

Gleisweiler wrote: »

As a man, I feel so angry that the women of Ireland are not being given the option to choose what they want to do with their own bodies. Whilst living in the UK my wife had to have an abortion in a case not disimilar to the tragic Savita. That was 46 years ago. We are now in the 21st century and if some folk don't agree with abortion because of their religious beliefs then that is their choice. However the religion argument should not be imposed on those who are not religious. A newspaper acticle on Sunday last stated that if men were able to become pregnant then the law would have been changed years ago. Unfortunatly the men in grey suits are still making the laws, or not, as the case may be.

Can I point out that not all people who are against abortion are against it for religious reasons. I am against abortion, and I would never step foot inside a church. I feel I have to correct this "anti abortion = religious" line when I see it because its not true for everyone. Thanks.

rainbow kirby · 03-05-2013 10:57AM

Watched that last night. Found it difficult not to hurl things at the TV when Berry Kiely was talking.

kennryyr · 03-05-2013 11:17AM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Can I point out that not all people who are against abortion are against it for religious reasons. I am against abortion, and I would never step foot inside a church. I feel I have to correct this "anti abortion = religious" line when I see it because its not true for everyone. Thanks.

Hi that is very interesting. Can you extrapolate on your reasons?

eviltwin · 03-05-2013 11:32AM

I think we need more women who have had abortions to be open about it although I can understand why they won't. Its easy to think its not something that will affect you when myths about the kinds of women who have abortions are out there.

I went out for dinner last night with my formally pro life mother in law who is 75. We got to talking about the debate and she told me she is now prochoice. My jaw nearly hit the floor, she would always have been very conservative. She told me it was always something she thought was other people would have to deal with, that it would never come to her family. The fact its affected her son and daugher in law, two "normal" people has really put a human face on it I suppose for her and forced her to really look at the personal stories behind it rather than the blanket generalisations that are out there.

I have to say it gives me great hope for the future.

OldNotWIse · 03-05-2013 11:40AM

kennryyr wrote: »

Hi that is very interesting. Can you extrapolate on your reasons?

Why?

I simply want to point out that it is incorrect to think that everyone who is anti abortion is necessarily religious.

Twee. · 03-05-2013 11:41AM

eviltwin wrote: »

I think we need more women who have had abortions to be open about it although I can understand why they won't. Its easy to think its not something that will affect you when myths about the kinds of women who have abortions are out there.

I went out for dinner last night with my formally pro life mother in law who is 75. We got to talking about the debate and she told me she is now prochoice. My jaw nearly hit the floor, she would always have been very conservative. She told me it was always something she thought was other people would have to deal with, that it would never come to her family. The fact its affected her son and daugher in law, two "normal" people has really put a human on it I suppose for her and forced her to really look at the personal stories behind it rather than the blanket generalisations that are out there.

I have to say it gives me great hope for the future.

Thanks for sharing, I think that bit I bolded is very important. It's not just one night stands gone wrong that would avail of abortions (not judging, just by what people have said, this is apparently what people think). People will not use abortion as a method of contraception. You don't just stroll in and say "hey what's up can I get one abortion plz?"! What about couple who find themselves accidentally pregnant having raised their kids, or who cannot afford to have another child, or the baby will not survive outside the womb, or even if they choose not to have a baby that will be born with a severe disability? Abortion happens for a number of reasons, and yes some are the result of accidental pregnancies, it happens. The only way to avoid pregnancy is 100% is abstinence!!

Read the Broadsheet transcript. My respect to Sarah McGuinness for managing to sit across from that woman and still remain calm.

eviltwin · 03-05-2013 11:51AM

Twee. wrote: »

Thanks for sharing, I think that bit I bolded is very important. It's not just one night stands gone wrong that would avail of abortions (not judging, just by what people have said, this is apparently what people think). People will not use abortion as a method of contraception. You don't just stroll in and say "hey what's up can I get one abortion plz?"! What about couple who find themselves accidentally pregnant having raised their kids, or who cannot afford to have another child, or the baby will not survive outside the womb, or even if they choose not to have a baby that will be born with a severe disability? Abortion happens for a number of reasons, and yes some are the result of accidental pregnancies, it happens. The only way to avoid pregnancy is 100% is abstinence!!

Read the Broadsheet transcript. My respect to Sarah McGuinness for managing to sit across from that woman and still remain calm.

I only caught the tail end of that when B Kiely talked about the killing of newborn babies. That's the kind of mentality that is out there. Do these people realise that women who have abortions often are mothers or intend to have children in the future when they are in the right place to do so? That its not about being anti children?

One of the great things about this debate is that there is a lot of people out there who don't judge and don't care why a woman has an abortion and more women are "coming out" and getting lots of support and making connections with other women who have been there. Walls of silence are slowly coming down and those walls are some of the biggest weapons the anti choice groups have. I hope it continues.

wolfpawnat · 03-05-2013 12:17PM

One thing I think needs to be said. I hope I get this out correctly, sometimes I feel as though I cannot get my point across, and it can be misinterpreted as an attack on a view point when I only wish to add to it.

With regards to the suicide issue. As we discussed already, the situation before 24 weeks is a lot different to after as regards the viability of the foetal life. Though not guaranteed, most of us know, it stands a chance after this week, which increases more and more if the weeks go by to full term. Will they offer her assistance to see if they can get her to term without a termination on a viable foetus or just not care about what can or cannot be done and do the termination without going through options with her. I say this thinking of the woman being suicidal and perhaps having not thought everything through, and she may want to keep the foetus, but cannot see how with her condition. I am NOT saying this as a way of saying her being suicidal should be dismissed and that she should not be allowed a termination. Please do not interpret it as such.

When a mother is suicidal, will the time be taken to distinguish whether it is due to the hormones of pregnancy or otherwise. If it is hormones, as I would assume (and all I can say is assume, because they are the cause of a lot of post and pre natal depression) could they offer her other care if SHE asks for it. The reason I say this is in no way to dismiss her request for an abortion, but that she is getting it for the right reasons for her. I cannot personally see how all the troubles will just go away with an abortion if it is not the reason solely for the depression, hopefully there will be proper aftercare and further psychiatric help available to the woman should she require it, though in Ireland, I am skeptical they will be given the care they will require at all.

username123 · 03-05-2013 12:29PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I think we need more women who have had abortions to be open about it although I can understand why they won't.

Well they certainly wont have any inclination to openness if the government legally stigmatise it by enforcing a 14 year jail term on a woman if she tries to abort while on Irish soil.

eviltwin · 03-05-2013 12:31PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

One thing I think needs to be said. I hope I get this out correctly, sometimes I feel as though I cannot get my point across, and it can be misinterpreted as an attack on a view point when I only wish to add to it.

With regards to the suicide issue. As we discussed already, the situation before 24 weeks is a lot different to after as regards the viability of the foetal life. Though not guaranteed, most of us know, it stands a chance after this week, which increases more and more if the weeks go by to full term. Will they offer her assistance to see if they can get her to term without a termination on a viable foetus or just not care about what can or cannot be done and do the termination without going through options with her. I say this thinking of the woman being suicidal and perhaps having not thought everything through, and she may want to keep the foetus, but cannot see how with her condition. I am NOT saying this as a way of saying her being suicidal should be dismissed and that she should not be allowed a termination. Please do not interpret it as such.

When a mother is suicidal, will the time be taken to distinguish whether it is due to the hormones of pregnancy or otherwise. If it is hormones, as I would assume (and all I can say is assume, because they are the cause of a lot of post and pre natal depression) could they offer her other care if SHE asks for it. The reason I say this is in no way to dismiss her request for an abortion, but that she is getting it for the right reasons for her. I cannot personally see how all the troubles will just go away with an abortion if it is not the reason solely for the depression, hopefully there will be proper aftercare and further psychiatric help available to the woman should she require it, though in Ireland, I am skeptical they will be given the care they will require at all.

I suppose counselling will be an option as it is in all crisis pregnancies.

Even if her feelings are down to hormones though - and how do you prove that - does it make a difference? A person who is suicidal is possibly going to try and kill themselves regardless of the cause of that feeling. I wouldn't be prepared to gamble on the fact she might feel okay after the birth. Its a big risk to take.

I don't think anyone is claiming a depressed woman is suddenly okay again once she has an abortion but its one less thing to worry about and have to accommodate. Certainly if she is forced to carry a pregnancy she doesn't want that is in no way going to help her if there are other factors.

username123 · 03-05-2013 12:36PM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Watched that last night. Found it difficult not to hurl things at the TV when Berry Kiely was talking.

I just read the transcript and it makes me think that Id actually like to see the worst things possible happen to that disgusting specimen of a human being, someone who just wants to inflict suffering on other sentient beings.

Macha · 03-05-2013 12:48PM

username123 wrote: »

I just read the transcript and it makes me think that Id actually like to see the worst things possible happen to that disgusting specimen of a human being, someone who just wants to inflict suffering on other sentient beings.

It's her complete inability to understand the concept of 'choice'. When the "pro-life" people trot out examples of women who have regretted abortions for whatever reason, they never grasp the logic that the experience, thoughts and desires of one woman are entirely different from another.

So when she talked about one woman wanting to give birth to the baby with a fatal abnormality, that doesn't mean every other woman wants to or should be forced to.

username123 · 03-05-2013 12:58PM

Macha wrote: »

So when she talked about one woman wanting to give birth to the baby with a fatal abnormality, that doesn't mean every other woman wants to or should be forced to.

I know. There was such a patronising element to it - as though somehow Sarah McGuinness wasnt realising what she was missing out on - a baby who might live for a few wonderful minutes. What is the point of that except to torture everyone involved for a bit of extra time?

It was also as though she had no concept of the mental torture that the bad news had already brought would be compounded by her crazy perinatal hospices idea.

Imagine a woman having to get locked away in a perinatal hospice for a few months, waiting on her (wanted) baby to get big enough to be delivered so she could watch it die. What effect would that have on the entire family? I know Id be a basket case from it. Probably for a long long number of years.

manual_man · 03-05-2013 01:09PM

i love the way the pro-choice folk continually harp on about the hypothetical situations that are in the tiny minority. if pregnancies are carried out to birth, the vast majority are born healthy, living, breathing, and healthy. just like most of us on here are

i find this whole debate/legislation a joke tbh. Savita's death was down to nothing but terrible medical practice and care. there was nothing in the law as it stands to stop the medical staff giving Savita the care she deserved and carrying out a termination to save her life. terrible medical care, simple as. it could have happened to anyone with a serious complication, pregnant or otherwise

at the end the government bowed to pressure from the aggressive pro-choice population and this is why we're seeing this debate/legislation. the inclusion of a stipulation to include pregnant women who feel suicidal is just farcical to be honest, and i don't for a second take suicide lightly, indeed it's something that i've had to deal with first-hand. first off, there's NO way to determine if a person is suicidal or not. it's just not possible. we don't know if any one person will attempt suicide or not. and we never will. the way some people go on you'd think having an abortion will make a person's suicidal ideations go away. anyone with even a semblance of understanding of mental health issues will know this is not the case. in fact it could even be argued that a person's suicidal ideations could increase by having an abortion, a realization of what they've done coupled with their already fragile state of mind could literally send them over the edge... the issue of mental health/suicide is far too complex/sensitive to involve abortion as some kind of possible solution i believe. imo the focus should be to save ALL life, as it has been all along until this farcical debate. although it has to be said, from the government's perspective, this debate has taken the spotlight off our continuing dire economic situation, for which i'm sure they're grateful

Macha · 03-05-2013 01:12PM

manual_man wrote: »

i love the way the pro-choice folk continually harp on about the hypothetical situations that are in the tiny minority. if pregnancies are carried out to birth, the vast majority are born healthy, living, breathing, and healthy. just like most of us on here are

Wonderful. What about those pregnancies that don't?

manual_man · 03-05-2013 01:17PM

Macha wrote: »

Wonderful. What about those pregnancies that don't?

Well personally i don't see any problem for having legislation in place to allow terminations when it's guaranteed the child will die shortly after birth. I don't see why anyone would. Likewise for when the life of the mother is at risk, but i don't include threat of suicide in that, like i've pointed out already it's simply impossible to know if someone is actually suicidal or not, and there's 2 equally valuable lives at stake, so i feel the focus should be to save both

username123 · 03-05-2013 01:19PM

manual_man wrote: »

i love the way the pro-choice folk continually harp on about the hypothetical situations that are in the tiny minority.

Um, not all pregnancies are wanted. Why should a woman have to suffer a pregnancy and birth when she doesnt want to?

eviltwin · 03-05-2013 01:19PM

manual_man wrote: »

Well personally i don't see any problem for having legislation in place to allow terminations when it's guaranteed the child will die shortly after birth. I don't see why anyone would. Likewise for when the life of the mother is at risk, but i don't include threat of suicide in that, like i've pointed out already it's simply impossible to know if someone is actually suicidal or not, and there's 2 equally valuable lives at stake, so i feel the focus should be to save both

How do you do that? If you can't be certain if a woman is genuine or not then what do you do to make sure those who are won't take their own life?

Macha · 03-05-2013 01:21PM

manual_man wrote: »

Well personally i don't see any problem for having legislation in place to allow terminations when it's guaranteed the child will die shortly after birth. I don't see why anyone would. Likewise for when the life of the mother is at risk, but i don't include threat of suicide in that, like i've pointed out already it's simply impossible to know if someone is actually suicidal or not, and there's 2 equally valuable lives at stake, so i feel the focus should be to save both

Nonsense. Give evidence of why you argue we can't ascertain if someone is suicidal or not.

As for saying there are two equally viable lives at stake, my life is not equal to that of a zygote and I take great offence to that assertion.

manual_man · 03-05-2013 01:22PM

username123 wrote: »

Um, not all pregnancies are wanted. Why should a woman have to suffer a pregnancy and birth when she doesnt want to?

And i never said they were. Let me put a hypothetical question to you. Consider that when your own mother was pregnant with you that abortion was more freely available in Ireland. She felt that the financial strain of having a child would be too much and thus decided to have an abortion. What would be your opinion if that had happened. Oh wait, you can't answer, you wouldn't be here

username123 · 03-05-2013 01:23PM

manual_man wrote: »

and there's 2 equally valuable lives at stake

eh no, there is a living sentient human being with consciousness, memory, intelligence etc and a bunch of cells with none of the above.

rainbow kirby · 03-05-2013 01:24PM

manual_man wrote: »

Oh wait, you can't answer, you wouldn't be here

Which makes your argument absolute nonsense.

username123 · 03-05-2013 01:25PM

manual_man wrote: »

What would be your opinion if that had happened.

There would be no "I" to care. What a ridiculous argument. What if my parents hadnt had sex that night, what if a different sperm had fertilised that egg, what if a different egg had been fertilised, what if my mothers mother hadnt had her..... Its a matter of chance that any of us are here.

manual_man · 03-05-2013 01:26PM

eviltwin wrote: »

How do you do that? If you can't be certain if a woman is genuine or not then what do you do to make sure those who are won't take their own life?

You give the exact same care/support to them as a non-pregnant person who might potentially be suicidal. i would think that much is obvious, i laid out my points very clearly

Macha · 03-05-2013 01:27PM

manual_man wrote: »

You give the exact same care/support to them as a non-pregnant person who might potentially be suicidal. i would think that much is obvious, i laid out my points very clearly

No you didn't - you made a series of dogmatic statements with nothing to back them up.

GalwayGuy2 · 03-05-2013 01:27PM

Even if her feelings are down to hormones though - and how do you prove that - does it make a difference? A person who is suicidal is possibly going to try and kill themselves regardless of the cause of that feeling. I wouldn't be prepared to gamble on the fact she might feel okay after the birth. Its a big risk to take.

I don't think anyone is claiming a depressed woman is suddenly okay again once she has an abortion but its one less thing to worry about and have to accommodate. Certainly if she is forced to carry a pregnancy she doesn't want that is in no way going to help her if there are other factors.

I must admit that suicide is probably the worst thing they could have put in the legislation. In my mind there's two broad (incredibly broad) reasons why a woman would be suicidal because of a pregnancy.

The first, would be the pregnancy itself, and in an ideal world the woman would have the choice to abort it whenever she wanted, and it would never reach that point. Two, would be an underlying condition, be it mental or medical or hormonal, and aborting the baby could make it better or worse, It's impossible to tell when it comes to mental health.

manual_man · 03-05-2013 01:27PM

Macha wrote: »

Nonsense. Give evidence of why you argue we can't ascertain if someone is suicidal or not.

As for saying there are two equally viable lives at stake, my life is not equal to that of a zygote and I take great offence to that assertion.

More to the point, give evidence of how you CAN ascertain if someone is suicidal

can you?

wolfpawnat · 03-05-2013 01:27PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I suppose counselling will be an option as it is in all crisis pregnancies.

Even if her feelings are down to hormones though - and how do you prove that - does it make a difference? A person who is suicidal is possibly going to try and kill themselves regardless of the cause of that feeling. I wouldn't be prepared to gamble on the fact she might feel okay after the birth. Its a big risk to take.

I don't think anyone is claiming a depressed woman is suddenly okay again once she has an abortion but its one less thing to worry about and have to accommodate. Certainly if she is forced to carry a pregnancy she doesn't want that is in no way going to help her if there are other factors.

Oh, I know, and I am not saying that it should be a case of "oh, we'll play it by ear" and dismiss the abortion. But as you and others have said, women don't tend to go looking for abortions because they just feel like having one, but that they need to get one, be it for health, financial, etc reasons. So if they could help her carry the baby to term safely if that is what she would like but cannot see how, will they explore that, is what I am wondering.

And as I said, will they provide adequate care for these women afterwards, because as you and I both said, the abortion does not eradicate the suicide issue singlehandedly and immediately.

It will be interesting to see what happens at the case of the first woman at around 28-30 weeks pregnant that presents with a risk of suicide as the foetus is viable so they will want to try and get it to term, but her mental health is paramount too, so what will be the outcome. It will be the precedent case for this particular part of the legislation. I only hope that in that case it will not be a costly one.

Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

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