Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

vitani · 02-05-2013 07:39PM

mel1 wrote: »

I actually did mention the pregnancy being unviable as being the only reason for a termination.

As for rape and incest, its a terrible tragedy for any woman but there are still other options.

I wonder are there many girls outthere who felt at the time that abortion was nessessary only to look back 10 year later to regret their decision and wish they had had advise from somone older and wiser to tell them that its not going to be the end of their life to have the baby and have it adopted or maybe would have decided to keep it.

Regardless of how he/she was concieved, its still a real live person.

You mentioned one actually dying. Not a foetus who would never survive outside the womb.

'Other options' is a bit of a misnomer if you've limited them to being the only options.

There are probably countless women out there who've regretted their abortion. That's very sad. But there are countless women who made the right decision in terminating their pregnancy. There are also women out there who chose to go on with the pregnancy when it wasn't the right decision, and although most would never admit it, I'd bet there's some who wished they'd done things differently.

Morag · 02-05-2013 07:43PM

Heres a time line if people want to read up on it
http://sharrowshadow.wordpress.com/2013/04/17/the-time-line-of-kicking-the-x-case-can-further-and-further-down-the-road/

Gleisweiler · 02-05-2013 07:55PM

As a man, I feel so angry that the women of Ireland are not being given the option to choose what they want to do with their own bodies. Whilst living in the UK my wife had to have an abortion in a case not disimilar to the tragic Savita. That was 46 years ago. We are now in the 21st century and if some folk don't agree with abortion because of their religious beliefs then that is their choice. However the religion argument should not be imposed on those who are not religious. A newspaper acticle on Sunday last stated that if men were able to become pregnant then the law would have been changed years ago. Unfortunatly the men in grey suits are still making the laws, or not, as the case may be.

mel1 · 02-05-2013 07:56PM

vitani wrote: »

You mentioned one actually dying. Not a foetus who would never survive outside the womb.

'Other options' is a bit of a misnomer if you've limited them to being the only options.

There are probably countless women out there who've regretted their abortion. That's very sad. But there are countless women who made the right decision in terminating their pregnancy. There are also women out there who chose to go on with the pregnancy when it wasn't the right decision, and although most would never admit it, I'd bet there's some who wished they'd done things differently.

Ive heard plenty of stories where a child was never going to survive out side the womb and they have been born just fine.

http://gma.yahoo.com/miracle-baby-got-melanoma-womb-still-thriving-180514838--abc-news-health.html

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/health/miracle-baby-clara-gets-allclear-from-down-syndrome-and-leukaemia-29211787.html

http://www.people.co.uk/lifestyle/real-life/2011/01/30/my-baby-survived-an-abortion-and-won-my-heart-102039-22884823/

How many babies have been needlessy aborted who need not have been.
I agree it would be a decision to consider if you were going to have a severely disabled child who would have no quality of life. But whos to say, noone can read the future.

I would hate to see girls going for abortions on a demand basis. Its just plain wrong for most who do it, i accept there are extraordinary exceptions.

Nymeria · 02-05-2013 07:56PM

mel1 wrote: »

do u really think not having a vote is the same as being granted the rite to take anothers life just because its your body?

That is what you are campaining for isnt it?

I dont have to be an old fart or have owned a magdalene laundry to know its just morally wrong.

I mentioned previous changes in the law(like the right to vote etc.) to highlight how ridiculous your flippant 'sure it's the law, get over it' references in previous posts were in the context of real life situations. Like I said before, its easy to say 'oh well, that's the law' if the law in question is something that you agree with or that doesn't negatively affect you.

Morality depends on your perspective, and from my perspective forcing a women to endure a pregnancy she doesn't want is morally repugnant.

clairefontaine · 02-05-2013 07:59PM

Gleisweiler wrote: »

As a man, I feel so angry that the women of Ireland are not being given the option to choose what they want to do with their own bodies. Whilst living in the UK my wife had to have an abortion in a case not disimilar to the tragic Savita. That was 46 years ago. We are now in the 21st century and if some folk don't agree with abortion because of their religious beliefs then that is their choice. However the religion argument should not be imposed on those who are not religious. A newspaper acticle on Sunday last stated that if men were able to become pregnant then the law would have been changed years ago. Unfortunatly the men in grey suits are still making the laws, or not, as the case may be.

They cant do that because the Constitution is saturated with religion, thanks to the glorified independence seekers of 1916. Thanks to that and them you have a theocracy that led to the Magdalene laundries and millions of five year olds learning about Jesus blah blah blah instead of one plus one equals two.

They need to rewrite the whole thing and someone should challenge its legitimacy.

lazygal · 02-05-2013 08:01PM

mel1 wrote: »

Its just plain wrong for most who do it, i accept there are extraordinary exceptions.

Correction, YOU think its wrong. Plenty of women have abortions and no one's reason is more valid or acceptable that anyone else's.

Are you planning on or have you adopted unwanted children, and provided the women with financial, emotional and practical support during pregnancy and birth? Or do you just think the 'adoption solution' is a suitable fix for all women with unwanted pregnancies.

mel1 · 02-05-2013 08:01PM

Gleisweiler wrote: »

As a man, I feel so angry that the women of Ireland are not being given the option to choose what they want to do with their own bodies. Whilst living in the UK my wife had to have an abortion in a case not disimilar to the tragic Savita. That was 46 years ago. We are now in the 21st century and if some folk don't agree with abortion because of their religious beliefs then that is their choice. However the religion argument should not be imposed on those who are not religious. A newspaper acticle on Sunday last stated that if men were able to become pregnant then the law would have been changed years ago. Unfortunatly the men in grey suits are still making the laws, or not, as the case may be.

Why are you angry? You lived in the UK where it is acceptable.
This is Ireland where it is not. We are still a predominatly cathloic country and have adopted the laws of the church and of the country.
When there is a referendum we might decide we need to change the law but i wouldnt hold my breath/

clairefontaine · 02-05-2013 08:01PM

mel1 wrote: »

Ive heard plenty of stories where a child was never going to survive out side the womb and they have been born just fine.

http://gma.yahoo.com/miracle-baby-got-melanoma-womb-still-thriving-180514838--abc-news-health.html

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/health/miracle-baby-clara-gets-allclear-from-down-syndrome-and-leukaemia-29211787.html

http://www.people.co.uk/lifestyle/real-life/2011/01/30/my-baby-survived-an-abortion-and-won-my-heart-102039-22884823/

How many babies have been needlessy aborted who need not have been.
I agree it would be a decision to consider if you were going to have a severely disabled child who would have no quality of life. But whos to say, noone can read the future.

I would hate to see girls going for abortions on a demand basis. Its just plain wrong for most who do it, i accept there are extraordinary exceptions.

How many babies have you adopted?

How many single mothers do you help with their parenting?

How much legislation have you fought for that eliminates a father's rights where he is proven to have raped the mother?

When you see more of this kind of help towards mothers to be, you might see less abortion.

sunshine and showers · 02-05-2013 08:04PM

mel1 wrote: »

Ive heard plenty of stories where a child was never going to survive out side the womb and they have been born just fine.

http://gma.yahoo.com/miracle-baby-got-melanoma-womb-still-thriving-180514838--abc-news-health.html

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/health/miracle-baby-clara-gets-allclear-from-down-syndrome-and-leukaemia-29211787.html

http://www.people.co.uk/lifestyle/real-life/2011/01/30/my-baby-survived-an-abortion-and-won-my-heart-102039-22884823/

How many babies have been needlessy aborted who need not have been.
I agree it would be a decision to consider if you were going to have a severely disabled child who would have no quality of life. But whos to say, noone can read the future.

I would hate to see girls going for abortions on a demand basis. Its just plain wrong for most who do it, i accept there are extraordinary exceptions.

By that same logic, how many women have needlessly died when an abortion could have saved them?

Pro-life groups say that abortion is never necessary to save a woman's life, but that is just not true. They say that doctors take necessary steps to save the mother's life. Well those "medical interventions" the IONA Institute and Youth Defence talk about are, in fact, abortions. They change the definition of the very word "abortion" to prove their point. I've argued with a number of pro-life campaigners on this point. An abortion is the evacuation of the foetus from the womb, whether you intend to harm the foetus or not.

rainbow kirby · 02-05-2013 08:05PM

mel1 wrote: »

We are still a predominatly cathloic country and have adopted the laws of the church

The RCC hasn't had a special place in the constitution since the early 70s, and the constitution is in drastic need of a revamp.

No place for religion in the affairs of the state. Faith is a private matter.

mel1 · 02-05-2013 08:05PM

lazygal wrote: »

Correction, YOU think its wrong. Plenty of women have abortions and no one's reason is more valid or acceptable that anyone else's.

Are you planning on or have you adopted unwanted children, and provided the women with financial, emotional and practical support during pregnancy and birth? Or do you just think the 'adoption solution' is a suitable fix for all women with unwanted pregnancies.

Sorry i completely disagree with you.
It is unaceptable IMO for someone to terminate a healthy baby just because they decide they didnt like the person that they accidently slept with without protection.

lazygal · 02-05-2013 08:06PM

mel1 wrote: »

Why are you angry? You lived in the UK where it is acceptable.
This is Ireland where it is not. We are still a predominatly cathloic country and have adopted the laws of the church and of the country.
When there is a referendum we might decide we need to change the law but i wouldnt hold my breath/

Vatican city is a catholic country. Ireland is a country with catholics. Your belief in supernatural deities shouldn't impact on my choices.

clairefontaine · 02-05-2013 08:07PM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

The RCC hasn't had a special place in the constitution since the early 70s, and the constitution is in drastic need of a revamp.

No place for religion in the affairs of the state. Faith is a private matter.

No actually it does, at least according to the office of the Minister for Education. I have been in correspondence with them about this and they have explained to me they are OBLIGED to teach religion in school because it is a constitutional right.

They need to rewrite the constitution.

username123 · 02-05-2013 08:08PM

mel1 wrote: »

Sorry i completely disagree with you.
It is unaceptable IMO for someone to terminate a healthy baby just because they decide they didnt like the person that they accidently slept with without protection.

Is this really why you think women have abortions?

Please educate yourself, your ignorance is astounding.

lazygal · 02-05-2013 08:08PM

mel1 wrote: »

Sorry i completely disagree with you.
It is unaceptable IMO for someone to terminate a healthy baby just because they decide they didnt like the person that they accidently slept with without protection.

Why? Why force a woman to gestate and birth a child she doesn't want, with possible lifelong or short term problems and inconvenience? Its crap being pregnant and giving birth, as you'd know if you'd done it, which I suspect you haven't.

sunshine and showers · 02-05-2013 08:11PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

No actually it does, at least according to the office of the Minister for Education. I have been in correspondence with them about this and they have explained to me they are OBLIGED to teach religion in school because it is a constitutional right.

They need to rewrite the constitution.

There is a constitutional right not to be taught religion in school too. Plus, the subject of religion when it is done for exam purposes (which is not mandatory, I did not have it as an option when I was in school) is not based on Catholicism.

The constitution does not need to be rewritten. It needs altering and updating in some areas, IMO, but it doesn't need to be scrapped.

Morag · 02-05-2013 08:25PM

mel1 wrote: »

I would hate to see girls going for abortions on a demand basis. Its just plain wrong for most who do it, i accept there are extraordinary exceptions.

They are for the most part not girls but women in their 20s, and many of them already have children and know well the choice they are making.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW0N0w3Pllc

Morag · 02-05-2013 08:28PM

mel1 wrote: »

Sorry i completely disagree with you.
It is unaceptable IMO for someone to terminate a healthy baby just because they decide they didnt like the person that they accidently slept with without protection.

87% of abortions in the UK are done using the abortion pill in the first 9 weeks of pregnancy so it's is not terminating a health baby.

Hermione* · 02-05-2013 08:31PM

MOD WARNING

This thread is about the proposed changes in abortion legislation. It is NOT a thread about the morality of abortion.

Please keep on topic or bans/ infractions will follow.

Hermione*

Solair · 02-05-2013 08:54PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

A lot of people do move somewhere else because they don't like the laws or the way of life. Have you noticed the emigration figures since the 1950s?

Vote with your feet folks. I'd like to see the whole country emigrate.

If people feel strongly enough about this they need to vote with their ballot papers and actually change the situation. This is one of the world's oldest continuous democracies, not some kind of a dictatorship!

Use your democratic power !

Opinion polling seems to show that a majority of people are in favour of a more liberal situation. The problem is that they're a silent majority who doesn't make a fuss.

Pick up the phone, ring your local TD and explain why you will not be voting for them.

Politicians live and breath votes and right now a lot of them think that they will lose votes if they support this bill.

I honestly think only a very small minority of politicians hold heartfelt views on anything. They are just terrified of a vocal right wing.

Give your TDs that are supporting the bill a call in support and give the ones who aren't a call and politely explain why you're not going to be voting for them. It has a *HUGE* impact.

I can assure you there are right wing types doing exactly that and terrifying their TDs

---edit---

I'd just add, that remember your local TDs are normal people. Those that are supporting the bill and who are putting their neck out calling for a liberal situation need emails, letters and phone calls to assure them they have supporters.

A lot of the time people only ring up to complain / give out.

Morag · 02-05-2013 09:12PM

ActiononX is the group which have been lobbying on this and over a year ago held their first public meeting.

Their website is http://actiononx.org/ and has what they think of the proposed legislation

Action on X today welcomed the publication of the government’s draft Bill on abortion, but regard it as having many shortcomings.

tatabubbly · 02-05-2013 09:51PM

In my case, I'm a woman of child bearing years and I havent ever got the chance to vote on the matter of abortion.

It should be available to all, freely and within a time frame, where a foetus is considered non viable.

why should anyone have the right to tell you that your reason for wanting/needing an abortion isn't as great as anothers?? Where are they going to draw the lines of medical intervention?

cdaly_ · 02-05-2013 10:19PM

mel1 wrote: »

I actually did mention the pregnancy being unviable as being the only reason for a termination.

No you didn't. You said:

mel1 wrote: »

If the pregnancy isnt viable and the child dies in womb then of course removing it is perfectly acceptable. But that should be the only reason.

So by your comments there, Savita was properly served by our hospitals. And you're quite happy with that...

Lingua Franca · 03-05-2013 12:32AM

mel1 wrote: »

Ive heard plenty of stories where a child was never going to survive out side the womb and they have been born just fine.

Ok, then can you show us some? Because these:

http://gma.yahoo.com/miracle-baby-got-melanoma-womb-still-thriving-180514838--abc-news-health.html

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/health/miracle-baby-clara-gets-allclear-from-down-syndrome-and-leukaemia-29211787.html

http://www.people.co.uk/lifestyle/real-life/2011/01/30/my-baby-survived-an-abortion-and-won-my-heart-102039-22884823/

...are not those cases.

I've said this too many times to too many people: READ YOUR LINKS TO MAKE SURE THEY SAY WHAT YOU THINK THEY SAY BEFORE POSTING THEM.

Not a single one of those links mentions a foetus diagnosed with a terminal illness.

1. is a child who was diagnosed with a cancer 6 weeks after she was born that she'd picked up from her mother in utero. Her mother sadly died from the cancer that had metastasized during her pregnancy.

2. is a child who was diagnosed after she was born with the same leukaemia and Down's syndrome that killed her twin.

3. is a child who was born after an abortion attempt failed. At no stage does that article claim that doctors said that she would not survive outside the womb.

I'm sure you could find stories of children surviving fatal foetal diagnosis, but none of these fit.

LittleBook · 03-05-2013 08:28AM

lazygal wrote: »

Have you ever been pregnant? ... I'm throwing my own anecdotal evidence in here but in my experience most women who've been through a pregnancy and/or birth would never judge another woman for the choices she makes.

I think you'll find Lazygal that the answer to this question is "yes" and this is one of those cases where, as wolfpawnat said earlier, women are the worst judges of other women. And sure as her ma would say, you made your bed so you lie in it.

But as Madeleine Albright said ... "There's a special place in hell for women who don't help other women" ... not that I believe in that hell shíte

mel1 wrote: »

When there is a referendum we might decide we need to change the law but i wouldnt hold my breath/

Neither would we since it took 21 feckin' years to even get to this piece of shít legislation.

For crying out loud woman, if you're going to participate in this discussion would you at least learn the history of the subject. It really is pointless trying to talk to a wall.

Carlos Orange · 03-05-2013 09:24AM

username123 wrote: »

Is elective abortion free on the NHS in the UK? By elective I mean not due to rape or health reasons.

I thought legally speaking abortions in the UK had to be for health reasons?
If so they couldn't really price them differently.

lazygal · 03-05-2013 09:28AM

psinno wrote: »

I thought legally speaking abortions in the UK had to be for health reasons.
If so they couldn't really price them differently.

All pregnancy, labour and birth has the potential to cause major or minor short or long term health implications. Therefore, a wide interpretation of 'health reasons' is entirely medically and legally appropriate. I don't know any women who wasn't left with some health issues after pregnancy, from minor dentail problems, to post episiotomy infections, to post natal depression. You should only have to decide to take such a risk yourself, it shouldn't be imposed on you as it is in Ireland.

Albert E. Arkwright · 03-05-2013 10:10AM

Once this legislation is passed a private clinic like Marie Stopes can be set up with the necessary number of sympathetic doctors employed. It should then be a formality. You simply make an appointment to see each doctor, one after the other, in the one location, and then have your abortion. Having to see three doctors will make it a bit more expensive than the UK, but you avoid the travel costs and the hassle of travel.

username123 · 03-05-2013 10:12AM

LittleBook wrote: »

For crying out loud woman, if you're going to participate in this discussion would you at least learn the history of the subject. It really is pointless trying to talk to a wall.

This is the problem with this debate in general. There will be well informed, articulate, educated, reasonable people who have opinions and there will be ignorant knuckle dragging thickos who have opinions. The latter making claims such as "Ya made yer bed, now lie in it" or "Ya cant be killin childer cos ya changed yer mind about who ya shagged" or "But sure we're all going to end up dead anyway".

You have to apply that to the real world - those knuckle draggers will have a vote. This is why I dont like democracy but thats another argument.

I worry that the number of ordinary reasonable people who experience empathy is smaller than the ignorant masses on this issue. Im afraid there will be far too many people who have never had a moments reflection on the issue just stating "Ya made yer bed" and thinking that that counts as some kind of statement of fact. It makes me shudder.

Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

Comments