Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

clairefontaine · 02-05-2013 04:07PM

sunshine and showers wrote: »

I am talking about those who object to the legislation because it allows for an abortion because of the risk of suicide as a concept. Those who believe that suicide is not a reason to allow a woman to have an abortion. What I am saying is that it does not matter if they "morally" feel that women who are suicidal cannot have an abortion. Such women have a constitutional right.

I do not agree with many aspects of this bill, but I also do not agree with the ignorance being shown by many of our TDs and Senators.

Don't even get me started on the wording of the bill with regards to sectioning, deciding if people are "suicidal enough" and the sentencing for taking abortion pills. Those are disgusting.

This is soooo dodgy because it invites all sorts of other legislation, like pressing charges for drinking or smoking during pregnancy [not that I condone that] or anything that can be perceived to harm or destroy the baby.

Gosh, what would Ireland do without Britain?

sunshine and showers · 02-05-2013 04:15PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

This is soooo dodgy because it invites all sorts of other legislation, like pressing charges for drinking or smoking during pregnancy [not that I condone that] or anything that can be perceived to harm or destroy the baby.

Gosh, what would Ireland do without Britain?

Which part is dodgy?

As a general point, it both shocks and disturbs me that politicians (never mind people debating this topic) do not understand what they are debating. Everyone has the right to decide that they do not like something in the constitution and to voice that dislike, but some of our democratic representatives are genuinely trying to actively deny women their constitutional rights. That is completely terrifying. Yes, they can talk at length about ways to control how suicidal women gain access to abortion, but trying to remove it completely from the legislation because you don't morally agree with it is an unconstitutional act.

And that's before you get into the actual contents of the bill, which is worryingly badly worded in and of itself. This is a complete fiasco.

LittleBook · 02-05-2013 04:19PM

mel1 wrote: »

If you want so badly to have an abortion trot on to England. I believe the people have voted for this twice in my voteing history and have decided we did not want it in our country.

I don't mind people being anti-abortion, everyone's entitled to an opinion and no-one is obliged to have one or like the fact that someone else may want to.

It's the ignorance and lack of education on the subject that depresses me the most in people like you and other anti-abortionists.

So why don't you trot on over to the IFPA website where you can read the legal timeline relating to abortion in Ireland, it won't take you long.

Did you know that in 1997, five years after the X case, the High Court ruled that a 13-year-old girl who was pregnant as a result of rape and was suicidal was entitled to an abortion in Ireland but the Health Board at the time took her to the UK anyway?

Or that the HSE (who will be responsible for the day-to-day overseeing of this legislation) tried to have a 17-year-old girl who was pregnant with an anencephalic foetus arrested for wanting to travel to the UK for an abortion?

Or that the 25th Amendment, which was rejected by the people of Ireland, sought to introduce new penalties of 12 years in prison for illegal abortion and now they're squeezing in 14 years instead?

There has been no vote in 30 years which indicated that "we did not want it in our country". I don't know what age you are but in my voting history we affirmed the right to distribute information on abortion, to travel for an abortion and we rejected the attempt to remove suicide as grounds for an abortion ... TWICE. I don't recall ever being asked if we want it in our country.

Frito · 02-05-2013 04:46PM

jank wrote: »

One cannot lie about bleeding to death or developing a life threatening infection. If someone is feeling sucidal about being pregnant and the only cure to that state of mind is an abortion then the state is obliged under the consitution to assess the credabilty of that claim before carrying about said abortion.

I understand your point, but I still consider the situation unfair.
In any other circumstance, where someone is requesting an intervention on grounds of suicidality, one opinion is enough. The law is only usually involved if someone refuses an intervention. If it takes X amount of specialists to agree on the need for an abortion in the case of an infection, it should take the same amount of specialists to agree on the need for abortion in the case of maternal suicide.

Actually, there is an exception for psychosurgery. Hate to undermine my own point! That involves a second medical opinion (not a third though) plus legal and lay opinion.

Ophiopogon · 02-05-2013 05:25PM

I've been following this thread since the start.

I've since found myself in the situation to have to "trot along to England" the stress and fear I've been under has only been compounded by having to leave my own bloody country.

When I come through this I probably will leave this country for good. I've just had enough, it's an absolute disgrace.

As for the post written earlier suggesting that I should leave if not happy. Hope the writer can one day open their mind just a bit and have some empathy.

mel1 · 02-05-2013 05:26PM

Sorry that my opinion dose not sit well with some of ye but just as it is against the law to take the life of another, it is against the law in Ireland to have an abortion.
And i am quite proud of that. The very idea of having an abortion makes me feel ill. If the pregnancy isnt viable and the child dies in womb then of course removing it is perfectly acceptable. But that should be the only reason.
Just because you want it to be your choice is unacceptable. Its not only your body when your shareing it with another life.
Just because your not ready to have a baby or because its not going to fit in your life style or your gonna get fat or that you accidently slept with the wrong fella and were to drunk to remember who he was is not a good enough reason to even consider ending the life of another.

As me ma would say you made your bed.

But like i said last time im not pro or anti life just an Irish woman living by the laws of her land.

username123 · 02-05-2013 05:37PM

mel1 wrote: »

Sorry that my opinion dose not sit well with some of ye but just as it is against the law to take the life of another, it is against the law in Ireland to have an abortion.
And i am quite proud of that. The very idea of having an abortion makes me feel ill. If the pregnancy isnt viable and the child dies in womb then of course removing it is perfectly acceptable. But that should be the only reason.
Just because you want it to be your choice is unacceptable. Its not only your body when your shareing it with another life.
Just because your not ready to have a baby or because its not going to fit in your life style or your gonna get fat or that you accidently slept with the wrong fella and were to drunk to remember who he was is not a good enough reason to even consider ending the life of another.

As me ma would say you made your bed.

But like i said last time im not pro or anti life just an Irish woman living by the laws of her land.

Anything that I could say in answer to this would have me banned from the forum, and probably the entire site.

This has to be trolling, it is deeply offensive.

Ophiopogon · 02-05-2013 05:48PM

mel1 wrote: »

Sorry that my opinion dose not sit well with some of ye but just as it is against the law to take the life of another, it is against the law in Ireland to have an abortion.
And i am quite proud of that. The very idea of having an abortion makes me feel ill. If the pregnancy isnt viable and the child dies in womb then of course removing it is perfectly acceptable. But that should be the only reason.
Just because you want it to be your choice is unacceptable. Its not only your body when your shareing it with another life.
Just because your not ready to have a baby or because its not going to fit in your life style or your gonna get fat or that you accidently slept with the wrong fella and were to drunk to remember who he was is not a good enough reason to even consider ending the life of another.

As me ma would say you made your bed.

But like i said last time im not pro or anti life just an Irish woman living by the laws of her land.

I don't have the energy to fight here.

However, I do hope if some day in the future you come to have a very difficult decision to make that may be against the law or the norm or archaic religious view that you have someone near who will not judge or shout about their own belives but will just offer support.

Life is just not that black and white.

sunshine and showers · 02-05-2013 06:02PM

mel1 wrote: »

Sorry that my opinion dose not sit well with some of ye but just as it is against the law to take the life of another, it is against the law in Ireland to have an abortion.
And i am quite proud of that. The very idea of having an abortion makes me feel ill. If the pregnancy isnt viable and the child dies in womb then of course removing it is perfectly acceptable. But that should be the only reason.
Just because you want it to be your choice is unacceptable. Its not only your body when your shareing it with another life.
Just because your not ready to have a baby or because its not going to fit in your life style or your gonna get fat or that you accidently slept with the wrong fella and were to drunk to remember who he was is not a good enough reason to even consider ending the life of another.

As me ma would say you made your bed.

But like i said last time im not pro or anti life just an Irish woman living by the laws of her land.

You completely ignored my post explaining to you what the law in Ireland is regarding abortions. Again, you are wrong. You are entitled to your opinion on abortion, but please don't cite it as fact.

If you are not simply trolling, I would sincerely urge you to inform yourself properly before attempting to debate on such a sensitive matter.

FouxDaFaFa · 02-05-2013 06:12PM

mel1 wrote: »

Just because your not ready to have a baby or because its not going to fit in your life style or your gonna get fat or that you accidently slept with the wrong fella and were to drunk to remember who he was is not a good enough reason to even consider ending the life of another.

As me ma would say you made your bed.

You have a pretty low opinion of women, for a woman.

Did Ms X make her bed too?

Tigger99 · 02-05-2013 06:12PM

mel1 wrote: »

Sorry that my opinion dose not sit well with some of ye but just as it is against the law to take the life of another, it is against the law in Ireland to have an abortion.
And i am quite proud of that. The very idea of having an abortion makes me feel ill. If the pregnancy isnt viable and the child dies in womb then of course removing it is perfectly acceptable. But that should be the only reason.
Just because you want it to be your choice is unacceptable. Its not only your body when your shareing it with another life.
Just because your not ready to have a baby or because its not going to fit in your life style or your gonna get fat or that you accidently slept with the wrong fella and were to drunk to remember who he was is not a good enough reason to even consider ending the life of another.

As me ma would say you made your bed.

But like i said last time im not pro or anti life just an Irish woman living by the laws of her land.

I dont think you are trolling and I mightn't agree with it, but you are entitled to your opinion, and no doubt many others feel the same. I don't know what your opinion is on abortion after rape and I'm not asking you for it, but I have read of other similar opinions to the above, but where it's only ok to have an abortion after rape.

The only difference is the judgement made against the woman. It's still an abortion, but if a pregnancy occurs after a one night stand, as you put it, you made your bed, now lie in it.

I hope your nearest and dearest are never in the position where they have a heart rendering decision to make about a crisis pregnancy, but if they are, that they encounter somebody who treats them with empathy and love.

As the saying goes, there for the grace of God, go I.

mel1 · 02-05-2013 06:13PM

Ophiopogon wrote: »

I don't have the energy to fight here.

However, I do hope if some day in the future you come to have a very difficult decision to make that may be against the law or the norm or archaic religious view that you have someone near who will not judge or shout about their own belives but will just offer support.

Life is just not that black and white.

Gosh im not looking for a fight, i really do feel for women who feel that abortion is their only way out of a bad situation, because its not. There are many options unless the pregnancy is going to kill you.
I think too much emphises is being put on whos rite it is to end the life of another and not enough on the fact that it is a life!
Im only giving my opinion, of course everyones is going to be different and everyone is going to disagree, isnt that what boards is for.

I dont call it trolling.

Nymeria · 02-05-2013 06:18PM

Sadly, I don't think this is a troll, I think it is someone who cannot or will not accept that not everybody thinks like her.

mel1 wrote: »

And i am quite proud of that. The very idea of having an abortion makes me feel ill.

But nobody is asking or insisting that you have an abortion, it is not mandatory, in fact it would not impact on your like one bit. You seem to be unwilling or incapable to distinguish your love of being a parent (I have read some of your other threads) with others who may not want or feel the same.

mel1 wrote: »

Just because your not ready to have a baby or because its not going to fit in your life style or your gonna get fat or that you accidently slept with the wrong fella and were to drunk to remember who he was is not a good enough reason to even consider ending the life of another.

I feel very sad for you that you think so little of other women who's lives and motivations you know nothing about, and yet you deign to make such sweeping statements about what is a 'good enough' reason for them.

mel1 wrote: »

But like i said last time im not pro or anti life just an Irish woman living by the laws of her land.

And if the abortion laws change in the future, will you trot off to somewhere else like you expect other people to do??

Nymeria · 02-05-2013 06:25PM

mel1 wrote: »

But like i said last time im not pro or anti life just an Irish woman living by the laws of her land.

Laws can be made and changed according to social agendas that sometimes have very little to do with right or wrong - what if there was a law made that restricted your rights to something fundamental in your life, and was something you really didn't agree with. Would you just shrug and go about your day?

You never answered other peoples queries about the laws that were in place years ago that have since been changed about women's rights. Do you think they were right to change, or should we all have just put up with mistreatment and inequality becuase 'its the law'?

lilmissprincess · 02-05-2013 06:33PM

You say that its okay if the pregnancy is unviable and the child dies in the womb. What about the unviable pregnancies that the child remains alive but won't outside of the womb? Do you think that women should have to spend months knowing that it will not produce a life outside of the womb?

vitani · 02-05-2013 06:55PM

mel1 wrote: »

Just because your not ready to have a baby or because its not going to fit in your life style or your gonna get fat or that you accidently slept with the wrong fella and were to drunk to remember who he was is not a good enough reason to even consider ending the life of another.

Why, out of all the reasons, did you choose these to mention?

Why not rape or incest, or situations where the foetus is unviable?

Albert E. Arkwright · 02-05-2013 06:55PM

mel1 · 02-05-2013 07:06PM

Nymeria wrote: »

Laws can be made and changed according to social agendas that sometimes have very little to do with right or wrong - what if there was a law made that restricted your rights to something fundamental in your life, and was something you really didn't agree with. Would you just shrug and go about your day?

You never answered other peoples queries about the laws that were in place years ago that have since been changed about women's rights. Do you think they were right to change, or should we all have just put up with mistreatment and inequality becuase 'its the law'?

do u really think not having a vote is the same as being granted the rite to take anothers life just because its your body?

That is what you are campaining for isnt it?

I dont have to be an old fart or have owned a magdalene laundry to know its just morally wrong.

Morag · 02-05-2013 07:11PM

mel1 wrote: »

do u really think not having a vote is the same as being granted the rite to take anothers life just because its your body?

That is what you are campaining for isnt it?

I dont have to be an old fart or have owned a magdalene laundry to know its just morally wrong.

That is not what the XCase is about.

clairefontaine · 02-05-2013 07:14PM

mel1 wrote: »

do u really think not having a vote is the same as being granted the rite to take anothers life just because its your body?

That is what you are campaining for isnt it?

I dont have to be an old fart or have owned a magdalene laundry to know its just morally wrong.

The problem is not what it is, it's where it is,but for me this legislation is beyond a pro-life, pro-choice argument.

It's about the state connecting sanity with unwanted pregnancy and having more recourse to incarcerate pregnant women, by tricking them into this "out". Yes tricking, this is devious backhanded legislation into more powers to section women and remove their babies from them.

Yep, it's an open air prison.

Congratulations ladies, it has been confirmed, as of the Childrens Referendum didnt already do this, you are baby sitters for the state. The state owns your ass and your kids' asses too.

I can't believe there havent been riots.

mel1 · 02-05-2013 07:15PM

vitani wrote: »

Why, out of all the reasons, did you choose these to mention?

Why not rape or incest, or situations where the foetus is unviable?

I actually did mention the pregnancy being unviable as being the only reason for a termination.

As for rape and incest, its a terrible tragedy for any woman but there are still other options.

I wonder are there many girls outthere who felt at the time that abortion was nessessary only to look back 10 year later to regret their decision and wish they had had advise from somone older and wiser to tell them that its not going to be the end of their life to have the baby and have it adopted or maybe would have decided to keep it.

Regardless of how he/she was concieved, its still a real live person.

sunshine and showers · 02-05-2013 07:22PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

The problem is not what it is, it's where it is,but for me this legislation is beyond a pro-life, pro-choice argument.

It's about the state connecting sanity with unwanted pregnancy and having more recourse to incarcerate pregnant women, by tricking them into this "out". Yes tricking, this is devious backhanded legislation into more powers to section women and remove their babies from them.

Yep, it's an open air prison.

Congratulations ladies, it has been confirmed, as of the Childrens Referendum didnt already do this, you are baby sitters for the state. The state owns your ass and your kids' asses too.

I can't believe there havent been riots.

Um, no. It's not. The government did not pull the suicide related part of the legislation out of the air.

Seriously, this legislation is just putting on paper what the law in Ireland already is. Despite what people would like to think, there is such a thing as legal abortion in Ireland. This bill sets out what situations allow for those legal abortions. That's all it is doing.
People need to relax. There is nothing the pro-choice or pro-life movement can do without a referendum. It's the constitution either side needs to change to get what they ultimately want. Not this legislation.

clairefontaine · 02-05-2013 07:26PM

sunshine and showers wrote: »

Um, no. It's not. The government did not pull the suicide related part of the legislation out of the air.

Seriously, this legislation is just putting on paper what the law in Ireland already is. Despite what people would like to think, there is such a thing as legal abortion in Ireland. This bill sets out what situations allow for those legal abortions. That's all it is doing.
People need to relax. There is nothing the pro-choice or pro-life movement can do without a referendum. It's the constitution either side needs to change to get what they ultimately want. Not this legislation.

So is the uproar here that people are just suddenly aware of it?

If it is already law, then it has already been put down on paper hasn't it?

mel1 · 02-05-2013 07:28PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

The problem is not what it is, it's where it is,but for me this legislation is beyond a pro-life, pro-choice argument.

It's about the state connecting sanity with unwanted pregnancy and having more recourse to incarcerate pregnant women, by tricking them into this "out". Yes tricking, this is devious backhanded legislation into more powers to section women and remove their babies from them.

Yep, it's an open air prison.

Congratulations ladies, it has been confirmed, as of the Childrens Referendum didnt already do this, you are baby sitters for the state. The state owns your ass and your kids' asses too.

I can't believe there havent been riots.

Ah would ya stop, just a little OTT dont you think.

Morag · 02-05-2013 07:28PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

So is the uproar here that people are just suddenly aware of it?

If it is already law, then it has already been put down on paper hasn't it?

No it was never legislated for, successive governments held 2 referendums and then tried to ignore it and it's not until the EU court of human rights in Dec 2010 told the government they had to and we got a political party which listened to them that we saw this starting to happen.

clairefontaine · 02-05-2013 07:32PM

Morag wrote: »

No it was never legislated for, successive governments held 2 referendums and then tried to ignore it and it's not until the EU court of human rights in Dec 2010 told the government they had to and we got a political party which listened to them that we saw this starting to happen.

Ok so sunshine and showers said that it is already in law but you are saying it was never legislated for.

This is confusing.

What exactly did the EU court tell them they had to do?

sunshine and showers · 02-05-2013 07:33PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

So is the uproar here that people are just suddenly aware of it?

If it is already law, then it has already been put down on paper hasn't it?

We have a common law system, which means that our law is based on precedent. Our constitution is interpreted by the Supreme Court. They decided during the X case (by interpreting article 40.3.3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann) that abortion is legal in Ireland in certain cases, including suicide.

Therefore, women in Ireland have a constitutional right to an abortion in certain, limited circumstances. The only problem is that the court cannot just say "here are all the circumstances" because that's not in its power. The Dáil and Seanad have to do that. The problem is that for 21 years, successive governments have ignored the X Case judgment because it is this controversial.

Two different (FF) governments tried to pass referendums to remove the threat of suicide as a reason for a woman to be allowed a legal abortion. Both times the people of Ireland rejected that idea. Therefore it is still the law.

EDIT: The decision of the European Courts is not binding on Ireland. The only reason this government is legislating for the X case is because of the tragic death of Savita Halappanavar and the level of public outrage that followed. That is seriously the only reason they are acting. The ECHR can disapprove of Ireland all it wants, but it has no power over us.

clairefontaine · 02-05-2013 07:34PM

mel1 wrote: »

Ah would ya stop, just a little OTT dont you think.

No. Given the history of reproduction and maternity in Ireland, no I do not.

Tigger99 · 02-05-2013 07:36PM

mel1 wrote: »

I wonder are there many girls outthere who felt at the time that abortion was nessessary only to look back 10 year later to regret their decision and wish they had had advise from somone older and wiser to tell them that its not going to be the end of their life to have the baby and have it adopted or maybe would have decided to keep it.

There was a student in liveline today talking about research for her thesis. The youth defence posters stating that abortions destroy a woman's life made her do a thesis in whether this was actually the case. The overwhelming evidence is that the vast majority of women aren't destroyed by having one. The evidence she found was all outside of Ireland due to the stigma of abortion here so she decided to interview counselors here in Ireland who deal with women everyday that have had abortions and she found the same thing.

In the vast majority of cases, the woman did not feel regret or that it destroyed her life. This view only changed when they were made to feel guilty by youth defence campaigns or people saying that they should feel bad and that when they didnt they wondered what was wrong with them.

Long story short, huge evidence that most women didnt feel tormented by their decision until they were made to feel that they should be.

lazygal · 02-05-2013 07:38PM

mel1 wrote: »

I actually did mention the pregnancy being unviable as being the only reason for a termination.

As for rape and incest, its a terrible tragedy for any woman but there are still other options.

I wonder are there many girls outthere who felt at the time that abortion was nessessary only to look back 10 year later to regret their decision and wish they had had advise from somone older and wiser to tell them that its not going to be the end of their life to have the baby and have it adopted or maybe would have decided to keep it.

Regardless of how he/she was concieved, its still a real live person.

Have you ever been pregnant?
Have you ever been in a situation where you had to make a decision about continuing with a pregnancy?

I'm throwing my own anecdotal evidence in here but in my experience most women who've been through a pregnancy and/or birth would never judge another woman for the choices she makes. I was very judgmental about abortion as a 'choice' when I was younger and then I realised it wasn't about me, it was about women in general, women I'd never met or who didn't or couldn't want to talk about pregnancy, be it unwanted or wanted, that was terminated/aborted/insert emotive antichoice phrase of the week like preborn or baby.

I'm currently pregnant with a much wanted second child. Having been through a difficult first pregnancy and c-section and a more straightforward one, I still know there's circumstances in which abortion/termination/'killing' my baby would be the right and - I'm going to say this because its how I feel - easy choice to make. Not just for me but for my sanity, my other children, my husband and, yes, my lifestyle.

If you have been pregnant, and you don't want an abortion, that's fine. No woman is forced to. But don't blithely decide that just because something makes you uncomfortable that no one else should be able to have access to it.

Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

Comments