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AGSI wants Uzi submachine guns reissued

124»

Comments

  • #92
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    666irishguy wrote: »
    AS for the AK-74, well if it's cheap they want and guns they want...Doesn't have to be an AK-74, I'm sure their are dozens of weapons in a wide variety of calibers that could be bought in places like Russia or the Czech Republic or even the former Yugoslavian countries. At the end of the day they just need something that will be deadly if it needs to be.

    Over Penetration chap

    Where the round hit there target and keep going till they hit something solid ,shoot the bad guy and the kid down the street gets it too
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #93
    bravestar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    666irishguy wrote: »
    . The Stopping power of the UZI is also questionable.

    Seriously, where are you getting this from??? The Uzi uses a 9x19mm cartridge, the same as a 9mm p226, the same as an 9mm MP5, the same as every other 9mm firearm that fires the 9x19mm parabellum!

    The only difference is with a longer barrel you get higher velocity as the projectile has more time to be pushed faster by the expanding gases ( to a certain point, then a vacuum effect can occur)

    The gun doesn't matter, this is not call of duty, the cartridge is what makes something more effective or not.

    The only reason for any cartridge fired from a modern firearm to be ineffective, in this context, is in the case of full metal jacket ammo not expanding in soft tissue and passing through it, leaving a tiny permanent wound channel and not expending its energy into the target but zipping straight through.

    That can be solved with a variety of hollow point and derivatives of. But then they can also get clogged by clothing and not expand properly...

    Anyway, the point is a 9mn round from an Uzi does the same thing a 9mm round from an mp5 does as long as the barrel length are the same and the exact same batch of ammo is used.


  • #94
    EazyD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭EazyD


    goldie fish wrote: »
    That's nice. Now, tell me what exactly do NATO know about policing, in particular armed policing?

    Plenty in fact, if there is going to be issuing of any firearm numbering in the thousands you can be damn well sure they will test the characteristics of each weapon, 5.7 came out on top, google it before voicing your skepticism maybe


  • #95
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    EazyD wrote: »
    Plenty in fact, if there is going to be issuing of any firearm numbering in the thousands you can be damn well sure they will test the characteristics of each weapon, 5.7 came out on top, google it before voicing your skepticism maybe

    "plenty"

    So nothing then.


  • #96
    Locust
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 319 ✭✭Locust


    Aren't police internationally moving away from '9mm' submachine guns and opting for 5.56 and 5.7 type shooters nowadays...
    Too much fear of the bad guy getting back up? PSNI got rid of there MP5's for G36's

    Folk have to remember this is for a 'police role' not Call of Duty. With every round fired is a barrister quizzing you at a trial.

    Personally I think the MP7 is ideal for Gardai, the training course/material/familiarisation is already there, it does the job and is compact for getting in and out of vehicles etc.

    Anyways its needed but if AGS aren't will to continue to fund the WW2 UZI i cant see them funding nationwide roll outs for members to be trained in P90's or MP7's


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  • #97
    EazyD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭EazyD


    goldie fish wrote: »
    "plenty"

    So nothing then.

    Have you googled any of this or researched the testing that they do? I find it amazing that you throw stagnant, non-informed responses without any basis


  • #98
    Remmy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Remmy


    Locust wrote: »
    Aren't police internationally moving away from '9mm' submachine guns and opting for 5.56 and 5.7 type shooters nowadays...
    Too much fear of the bad guy getting back up? PSNI got rid of there MP5's for G36's

    Folk have to remember this is for a 'police role' not Call of Duty. With every round fired is a barrister quizzing you at a trial.

    As a lowly civilian I am open to correction to this but I believe the main reason police departments in the united states anyway have moved from mp5 type firearms which would fire pistol calibre rounds to ar15 format rifles (.223) is that with frangible ammunition they offer the least possibility for over penetration and thus innocent people getting hurt. It would also offer the option of rounds that would zip through barriers or bullet resistant materials.


  • #99
    bravestar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    Remmy wrote: »
    As a lowly civilian I am open to correction to this but I believe the main reason police departments in the united states anyway have moved from mp5 type firearms which would fire pistol calibre rounds to ar15 format rifles (.223) is that with frangible ammunition they offer the least possibility for over penetration and thus innocent people getting hurt. It would also offer the option of rounds that would zip through barriers or bullet resistant materials.

    There is plenty of 9mm hollow point ammo available and to be honest, while I prefare a 5.56mm rifle cartridge over a pistol cartridge, in this case 9mm, I think the move is more to do with mp5 being made by HK and AR15 being an all American rifle. That and an AR is far more modular, versatile and familiar with replacement parts all over the place. Oh, and it's cheaper!


  • #100
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Bollocks its because they dont look cool enough.

    SWAT_Front.jpg


  • #101
    helimachoptor
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 21,815 Mod ✭✭✭✭helimachoptor


    How much would an Mp7/Uzi etc etc cost per man per year when taking into account

    Purchase price
    ammo
    Training/certification etc?


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  • #102
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    EazyD wrote: »
    Have you googled any of this or researched the testing that they do? I find it amazing that you throw stagnant, non-informed responses without any basis

    YOU haven't provided any evidence apart from telling me to "google it".

    That's another thing NATO know nothing about...
    Rules of Evidence.


  • #103
    EazyD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭EazyD


    goldie fish wrote: »
    YOU haven't provided any evidence apart from telling me to "google it".

    That's another thing NATO know nothing about...
    Rules of Evidence.

    NATO evaluation

    Further information: FN 5.7×28mm (history)
    In 2002 and 2003, NATO conducted a series of tests with the intention of standardizing a PDW cartridge as a replacement for the 9×19mm Parabellum cartridge.[10] The tests compared the relative merits of the FN 5.7×28mm cartridge and the HK 4.6×30mm cartridge, which was created by German small arms manufacturer Heckler & Koch as a competitor to the 5.7×28mm.[10] The results of the NATO tests were analyzed by a group formed of experts from Canada, France, the United Kingdom, and the United States, and the group's conclusion was that the 5.7×28mm was "undoubtedly" the more efficient cartridge.[10] However, the German delegation and others rejected the NATO recommendation that 5.7×28mm be standardized, halting the standardization process indefinitely.[10][16] As a result, both the 4.6×30mm and 5.7×28mm cartridges (and the associated weapons) have been independently adopted by various NATO countries, according to preference; the P90 is currently in service with military and police forces in over 40 countries throughout the world.[13][16]
    Show me your evidence that NATO "know nothing about" the weaponry and ammunition they thoroughly test.


  • #104
    bravestar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    EazyD wrote: »
    NATO evaluation

    Further information: FN 5.7×28mm (history)
    In 2002 and 2003, NATO conducted a series of tests with the intention of standardizing a PDW cartridge as a replacement for the 9×19mm Parabellum cartridge.[10] The tests compared the relative merits of the FN 5.7×28mm cartridge and the HK 4.6×30mm cartridge, which was created by German small arms manufacturer Heckler & Koch as a competitor to the 5.7×28mm.[10] The results of the NATO tests were analyzed by a group formed of experts from Canada, France, the United Kingdom, and the United States, and the group's conclusion was that the 5.7×28mm was "undoubtedly" the more efficient cartridge.[10] However, the German delegation and others rejected the NATO recommendation that 5.7×28mm be standardized, halting the standardization process indefinitely.[10][16] As a result, both the 4.6×30mm and 5.7×28mm cartridges (and the associated weapons) have been independently adopted by various NATO countries, according to preference; the P90 is currently in service with military and police forces in over 40 countries throughout the world.[13][16]
    Show me your evidence that NATO "know nothing about" the weaponry and ammunition they thoroughly test.

    In fairness, Goldie said they know nothing about armed policing. Not weapons/ammo testing.

    Just because a certain cartridge is deemed to perform better than another does not mean that the firearms that uses it will be adopted by everyone. There is more to selecting a firearms system to use than just the cartridge it fires. While that is an important aspect, everything in life is a compromise. Otherwise, everyone would be using the exact same firearms.


  • #105
    EazyD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭EazyD


    bravestar wrote: »
    In fairness, Goldie said they know nothing about armed policing. Not weapons/ammo testing.

    Just because a certain cartridge is deemed to perform better than another does not mean that the firearms that uses it will be adopted by everyone. There is more to selecting a firearms system to use than just the cartridge it fires. While that is an important aspect, everything in life is a compromise. Otherwise, everyone would be using the exact same firearms.

    That's true, however we are talking about armed policing at the highest level, where very few compromises are made with regards to weaponry.


  • #106
    bravestar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    EazyD wrote: »
    That's true, however we are talking about armed policing at the highest level, where very few compromises are made with regards to weaponry.

    I'm not talking about compromises in weaponry, what I meant was, while the p90 uses a superior cartridge, it is handicapped by its design as people are reluctant to try something so different. It also has a seriously large mechanical offset! That is not good for engaging targets at different distance. It's magazine loads at the top. It would require unlearning everything you know and in a split second reload/ malfunction clearance, there is every chance your brain will revert to your old habits.

    The mp7 follows a more traditional design, controls, magazine placement and would require little retraining for anyone familiar to using any modern SMG. The 4.6mm round is more than capable of doing the job.

    That is a small example of what I meant by compromise. There's more to it then that but I'm not going into it all.

    So is the p90 worth it knowing its ups and downs? I don't think. You might, and that's ok. It would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything.


  • #107
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    bravestar wrote: »
    There is plenty of 9mm hollow point ammo available and to be honest, while I prefare a 5.56mm rifle cartridge over a pistol cartridge, in this case 9mm, I think the move is more to do with mp5 being made by HK and AR15 being an all American rifle. That and an AR is far more modular, versatile and familiar with replacement parts all over the place. Oh, and it's cheaper!

    I think you might find that one of the main reasons for so many US police forces adopting AR15 style weapons is that many if not most police officers hired over the last 10 years are ex-US military. Thus they have a great deal of training and experience in using this style of weapon, some even have experience of using them in intense battle scenarios.

    So as long as you can find the right cartridge that won't over-penetrate, then it makes sense to stick with what people know.

    We don't have the same history and experience with AR15 style weapons here, so another option like the HK7 is probably more sensible.


  • #108
    bravestar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    bk wrote: »
    I think you might find that one of the main reasons for so many US police forces adopting AR15 style weapons is that many if not most police officers hired over the last 10 years are ex-US military. Thus they have a great deal of training and experience in using this style of weapon, some even have experience of using them in intense battle scenarios.

    So as long as you can find the right cartridge that won't over-penetrate, then it makes sense to stick with what people know.

    We don't have the same history and experience with AR15 style weapons here, so another option like the HK7 is probably more sensible.

    That's exactly what I meant in my post that you quoted when I said Familiar.


  • #109
    Goonerdee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 972 ✭✭✭Goonerdee


    http://www.independent.ie/lifesaboutchoices/your-choice-gardai-should-be-armed-29273066.html


  • #110
    meathstevie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,777 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    I reckon that the combined policing expertise in NATO is rather overwhelming; one should never forget that for starters just about every NATO country has a military police organisation in it's armed forces. Those MP's are often just as competent and experienced as any civilian police officer.

    Also, in France for example the defence department runs the Gendarmerie, a national police organisation involved in day to day policing and the list goes on and on.

    In short, I believe that it would be a mistake to underestimate NATO's policing expertise. A lot of NATO and NATO supported operations since the end of the Cold War have involved substantial elements of civilian policing.

    The link above is quite interesting as well; it also mentions the alternative of wider deployment of hard hitting less lethal weaponry in the form of taser type weapons. In my opinion they perfectly bridge the gap between the traditional less lethal weapons like batons and incapacitant sprays and firearms since their effective range is far superior to that of a spray or baton and they have the capability to stop someone on the spot like a firearm with a far lower risk of resulting in death.


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