AGSI wants Uzi submachine guns reissued

donvito99 · 16-04-2013 09:18PM

On that point, a legitimate question.

Who's to decide (Government and Garda management obviously, but...) will it be Gardaí themselves who will push this, or the public?

What does the force as a whole think?

stop · 16-04-2013 09:22PM

Anyone know what unit this is from the Poolbeg exercise today? Ain't seen the shoulder crest before..
What type of rifle are these guys using?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjPGPjHPYbw#!

Remmy · 16-04-2013 09:33PM

^^ It is an ar-15 variant of some sort. Not sure on the unit pictured above

Witcher · 16-04-2013 10:10PM

According to the video title it's the Emergency Response Unit. The lead man appears to have a HK416 but it another section they also have AR15's.

bravestar · 16-04-2013 10:29PM

stop wrote: »

Anyone know what unit this is from the Poolbeg exercise today? Ain't seen the shoulder crest before..
What type of rifle are these guys using?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjPGPjHPYbw#!

PSNI, specialist firearms officer (SFO)

Witcher · 16-04-2013 10:49PM

The video description on YT contains the following;

By land, sea or air - we're ready to deal with a major terrorist attack.

That's the message from Gardai as members of the Emergency Response Unit showcase their counter-terrorism capabilities.

It's part of a Europe-wide exercise involving law enforcement officers in nine different countries.

Seems the ERU are hosting units from several nations so the pictured guy appears to be from the PSNI as Bravestar said.

Zambia · 16-04-2013 11:00PM

I assume the Public was very concerned that someone might capture by force of arms the abandoned ESB Station at Poolberg Towers, they can rest easy now.

Every time this gets discussed here a response seems to be that there is not enough incidents where firearmed offenders encounter Garda to justify members being armed.

The police in general are always meant to operate from a position of strength in all dealings with offenders.

Every situation must be gauged on its own merit but in general.

Police should not be boxing on with people toe to toe. If there is one offender there should be 2 police.
If the offender is using fists they should expect to be sprayed or tasered etc
If the offender has a knife or heavy club, Trolley bar etc anything that could potentially kill or seriously injure the officer or innocent party well then they should expect to see the wrong end of a firearm.

The police are expected to be fair but they are not expected to engage in fair fights, they are expected to use reasonable force to arrest and detain people for presentation to the courts. If one decides to act like a pork chop during the process one should expect the level of force they encounter to escalate.

I have the greatest respect for the Garda performing their role unarmed and have always maintained that its their decision if this is to change. I would expect the public to respect their right to decide for themselves if the need was there for them to become an armed force.

17-04-2013 06:46AM

Zambia, not sure about being glib about the ERU training, and, while your Rules of Engagement suggestions are that, suggestions, I think going into minutiae of ROE of actual guard tactics could be a breach of charter re operational info.

Superseding all that though......

Zambia wrote: »

I have the greatest respect for the Garda performing their role unarmed and have always maintained that its their decision if this is to change.

Fully agree. Whatever about our bellyaching for or against an armed police force, it's them that know if/when/where firearms are warranted.

Going back to what started this thread in the 1st place, guards should have some sort of SMG to replace the Uzi. P90's been suggested, as has HK 5 & 7 IIRC. Anything else?

Sulla Felix · 17-04-2013 07:00AM

Bit of a leftfield suggestion, but why not kit them out with carbine or sub carbine barreled Steyr AUGs? The sub carbine is a pretty compact piece of kit, only 3-4 inches longer than a P90 so not exactly unwieldly.
Have the army train em up.

goldie fish · 17-04-2013 07:06AM

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Bit of a leftfield suggestion, but why not kit them out with carbine or sub carbine barreled Steyr AUGs? The sub carbine is a pretty compact piece of kit, only 3-4 inches longer than a P90 so not exactly unwieldly.
Have the army train em up.

Why?

Apart from wanting to demonstrate your gun fetish.

Sulla Felix · 17-04-2013 07:26AM

goldie fish wrote: »

Why?

Apart from wanting to demonstrate your gun fetish.

Don't have a gun fetish. I just figure as a cost saving excercise, the arms are probably available cheaper given we'd already have periodical contracts running for replacements for the armed forces anyway, and training officers from there could train up the garda training officers.
Certainly makes more sense than buying a bunch of P90s as others have suggested, but oddly they didn't get personal insinuations made about them. Hmm.

goldie fish · 17-04-2013 07:31AM

Ok, I'll put it another way to mask your obvious sensitivities.
Why get rid of the H&K 33 to replace it with another weapon of the same generation that offers absolutely no advantage other than minor ergonomics?

How often do you think AGS, in particular the ERU buys new weapons?

Sulla Felix · 17-04-2013 07:41AM

goldie fish wrote: »

Ok, I'll put it another way to mask your obvious sensitivities.
Why get rid of the H&K 33 to replace it with another weapon of the same generation that offers absolutely no advantage other than minor ergonomics?

How often do you think AGS, in particular the ERU buys new weapons?

Not to replace the 33, as an alternative suggestion to the p90 suggestion which was mooted instead of the uzi. If the Uzi isn't fit for purpose, which someone did say, and a replacement is needed, the p90 is expensive, the Steyr might be less so.

source · 17-04-2013 07:44AM

goldie fish wrote: »

Ok, I'll put it another way to mask your obvious sensitivities.
Why get rid of the H&K 33 to replace it with another weapon of the same generation that offers absolutely no advantage other than minor ergonomics?

How often do you think AGS, in particular the ERU buys new weapons?

I think the AUG is being suggested as a replacement for the UZI, which isn't all that bad an idea given that Steyr do a 9mm version for the law enforcement and civilian market.

goldie fish · 17-04-2013 07:52AM

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Not to replace the 33, as an alternative suggestion to the p90 suggestion which was mooted instead of the uzi. If the Uzi isn't fit for purpose, which someone did say, and a replacement is needed, the p90 is expensive, the Steyr might be less so.

The UZI is fit for purpose, but the department decided it was too expensive to keep everyone qualified on it. The P90 suggestion was pretty much derided, you'll find.

You cannot replace a pistol ammo weapon with a rifle ammo one. There is a reason the interim cartridge is used.

Zambia · 17-04-2013 08:02AM

Couldn't they just buy more MP7s ?

source · 17-04-2013 08:04AM

goldie fish wrote: »

The UZI is fit for purpose, but the department decided it was too expensive to keep everyone qualified on it. The P90 suggestion was pretty much derided, you'll find.

You cannot replace a pistol ammo weapon with a rifle ammo one. There is a reason the interim cartridge is used.

As I already said, Steyr make a version of the AUG that takes 9x19mm parabellum ammunition, the same as the sig and the Uzi.

I agree arming DDU with a 5.56mm assault rifle would be a bit much. But when a 9mm version exists and there are already instructors trained in the use of the weapon in the employ of the state it makes sense.

I'm not suggesting for a second it will ever happen, but as an alternative it's certainly a viable one.

IRLConor · 17-04-2013 08:05AM

Zambia wrote: »

Couldn't they just buy more MP7s ?

If they don't have enough money to maintain use of the Uzi then they almost certainly don't have money for new guns.

the_syco · 17-04-2013 08:29AM

Deleted User wrote: »

there's a sizeable chunk of the population that think arming every single guard is a bad idea.

I'd say there's a sizeable chunk of the population that think every single guard is a waste of money. Until they're needed. And then they'll curse the Gardai for not coming fast enough, rather than curse the TD for closing their local station.

source wrote: »

I think the AUG is being suggested as a replacement for the UZI, which isn't all that bad an idea given that Steyr do a 9mm version for the law enforcement and civilian market.

Was going to say the MP9 or UMP, but the AUG Para looks like it'd be fairly good. Not sure why, but I think the rifle variations should be left with the army and the ERU, and the SMG for the detectives.

Remmy · 17-04-2013 10:58AM

*Major Walt alert. For a real look at what a near limitless budget looks like for a police firearms team have a look at this thread about German SEK.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?84884-The-SEK-Thread

EazyD · 17-04-2013 06:16PM

Although the UZI would be vastly cheaper on unit cost, it is very old technology for the purpose. NATO recently evaluated the 5.7 round found in the P90 against its current munition choices of 4.6(MP7) and 9mm rounds and found it to be a vastly superior round

goldie fish · 17-04-2013 07:19PM

EazyD wrote: »

Although the UZI would be vastly cheaper on unit cost, it is very old technology for the purpose. NATO recently evaluated the 5.7 round found in the P90 against its current munition choices of 4.6(MP7) and 9mm rounds and found it to be a vastly superior round

That's nice. Now, tell me what exactly do NATO know about policing, in particular armed policing?

666irishguy · 17-04-2013 10:26PM

goldie fish wrote: »

That's nice. Now, tell me what exactly do NATO know about policing, in particular armed policing?

They may not know much about armed policing, bit they know a lot about accuracy. The 9mm round that comes out of the business end of the UZI is pretty inaccurate at any above 50 feet. That's fine if you are indoors but if the situation arises where you are out in the open and have only an UZI, then you are going to be spraying a lot of lead at your target to hit it and run the risk of stray rounds going god knows where. It's that or getting close enough for accuracy which puts you in danger. The newer caliber rounds have better ballistic performance at greater ranges. With criminals becoming better armed with longer range weapons, the 9mm just won't cut it. That said, I don't know why we couldn't just issue them them something like an AK-74 with a short barrel and a folding stock. You'd probably buy five of them for the price of one MP-7 or P90.

Witcher · 17-04-2013 10:46PM

666irishguy wrote: »

They may not know much about armed policing, bit they know a lot about accuracy. The 9mm round that comes out of the business end of the UZI is pretty inaccurate at any above 50 feet. That's fine if you are indoors but if the situation arises where you are out in the open and have only an UZI, then you are going to be spraying a lot of lead at your target to hit it and run the risk of stray rounds going god knows where. It's that or getting close enough for accuracy which puts you in danger. The newer caliber rounds have better ballistic performance at greater ranges. With criminals becoming better armed with longer range weapons, the 9mm just won't cut it. That said, I don't know why we couldn't just issue them them something like an AK-74 with a short barrel and a folding stock. You'd probably buy five of them for the price of one MP-7 or P90.

A 9mm is inaccurate at 50+ feet? You must be joking?:pac:

Go and look at some videos of HICKOK45 on YT, the guy rings a gong at 80 yards everytime he has a 9mm out for a video. He even uses an UZI in one video and is hitting the same gong. If anyone has a problem hitting a target at more than 50 feet with a 9mm they're just sh1t plain and simple, neither the round nor the gun is the problem.

bravestar · 17-04-2013 11:12PM

666irishguy wrote: »

They may not know much about armed policing, bit they know a lot about accuracy. The 9mm round that comes out of the business end of the UZI is pretty inaccurate at any above 50 feet. That's fine if you are indoors but if the situation arises where you are out in the open and have only an UZI, then you are going to be spraying a lot of lead at your target to hit it and run the risk of stray rounds going god knows where. It's that or getting close enough for accuracy which puts you in danger. The newer caliber rounds have better ballistic performance at greater ranges. With criminals becoming better armed with longer range weapons, the 9mm just won't cut it. That said, I don't know why we couldn't just issue them them something like an AK-74 with a short barrel and a folding stock. You'd probably buy five of them for the price of one MP-7 or P90.

9mm not accurate at 50 feet??? Your having a laugh right!

Seriously, now, whens the last time you fired a 9mm round from any firearm at a target 50 feet away? If you have and you missed, well, go take up knitting.

75 feet/ 23 meters is perfectly do able for a 9mm pistol! never mind a SMG or something with a longer sight radius.

Are you getting all your info from TV shows and the internet or real life experience?

I agree that the 5.7/4.6mm ammo has better ballistic performance than a 9mm but for a pistol that would mean replacing the sig with an FN Five seven.

Buy AK 47/74s? Are you aware the vast majority of police discharges of firearms happen at VERY close range, as in, a few yards? A 7.62x39 round is almost 100% guaranteed to over penetrate. Absolutely unsuitable cartridge for 99.999999% of Police purposes .

666irishguy · 17-04-2013 11:22PM

Blay wrote: »

A 9mm is inaccurate at 50+ feet? You must be joking?:pac:

Go and look at some videos of HICKOK45 on YT, the guy rings a gong at 80 yards everytime he has a 9mm out for a video. He even uses an UZI in one video and is hitting the same gong. If anyone has a problem hitting a target at more than 50 feet with a 9mm they're just sh1t plain and simple, neither the round nor the gun is the problem.

Should have said yards

. Nothing remarkable in those videos. The guy in that video has years of experience handling weapons, would more than likely be an expert shooter who has shot competitively and he is shooting in the controlled environment of a range. I watched him doing a bit of shooting with the UZI and even he is having to fire two rounds to take out some of those targets. The Stopping power of the UZI is also questionable.

Gatling · 17-04-2013 11:26PM

666irishguy wrote: »

They may not know much about armed policing, bit they know a lot about accuracy. The 9mm round that comes out of the business end of the UZI is pretty inaccurate at any above 50 feet. That's fine if you are indoors but if the situation arises where you are out in the open and have only an UZI, then you are going to be spraying a lot of lead at your target to hit it and run the risk of stray rounds going god knows where. It's that or getting close enough for accuracy which puts you in danger. The newer caliber rounds have better ballistic performance at greater ranges. With criminals becoming better armed with longer range weapons, the 9mm just won't cut it. That said, I don't know why we couldn't just issue them them something like an AK-74 with a short barrel and a folding stock. You'd probably buy five of them for the price of one MP-7 or P90.

Still rather a P90 or mp7 or ump 45
Over and Ak variant

666irishguy · 17-04-2013 11:29PM

bravestar wrote: »

9mm not accurate at 50 feet??? Your having a laugh right!

Seriously, now, whens the last time you fired a 9mm round from any firearm at a target 50 feet away? If you have and you missed, well, go take up knitting.

75 feet/ 23 meters is perfectly do able for a 9mm pistol! never mind a SMG or something with a longer sight radius.

Are you getting all your info from TV shows and the internet or real life experience?

I agree that the 5.7/4.6mm ammo has better ballistic performance than a 9mm but for a pistol that would mean replacing the sig with an FN Five seven.

Buy AK 47/74s? Are you aware the vast majority of police discharges of firearms happen at VERY close range, as in, a few yards? A 7.62x39 round is almost 100% guaranteed to over penetrate. Absolutely unsuitable cartridge for 99.999999% of Police purposes .

AS for the AK-74, well if it's cheap they want and guns they want...Doesn't have to be an AK-74, I'm sure there are dozens of weapons in a wide variety of calibers that could be bought in places like Russia or the Czech Republic or even the former Yugoslavian countries. At the end of the day they just need something that will be deadly if it needs to be.

666irishguy · 17-04-2013 11:31PM

Gatling wrote: »

Still rather a P90 or mp7 or ump 45
Over and Ak variant

Fair enough but if it's a matter of cost which seems to be the case, I'd rather anything at all over nothing at all.

goldie fish · 17-04-2013 11:31PM

Jaysus, all the Call of Duty gun nuts have arrived.

Has anyone of you had to fire a shot on duty? Better yet, been shot at on duty?

AGSI wants Uzi submachine guns reissued

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