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AGSI wants Uzi submachine guns reissued

24

Comments

  • #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Locust wrote: »
    If every guard had a handgun on his/her belt - it wouldn't be a 'gun state' it would be a safer state!

    If every *insert group* had a gun on his/her belt, more people would be dead, maimed, or traumatised. Rightly or wrongly.

    We have a criminal justice system that administers custodial punishment, not corporal or capital punishment. It's something that defines us as a nation like the flag or the dual language status.

    Gun discharges outside of training need to be treated like air accidents. Investigated, publicly reported on, causes found. Every time a weapon is discharged. Every. Single. Time.

    Besides, more guns = more chances for stupid people to F*ck Around With Guns/ allow guns to get stolen.

    If you do want to get guns on the street in the hands of a group of people, of which you think every single one will carry them & use them properly every single minute of every single day they have them, then it has to be drilled drilled drilled drilled drilled drilled *drilled* into them,

    You Do Not,

    Do not

    Do. Not.

    F*ck Around With Guns.

    Ever.


  • #33
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If every *insert group* had a gun on his/her belt, more people would be dead, maimed, or traumatised. Rightly or wrongly.
    Correct however if one group decides they want to carry guns, who stops them?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    We have a criminal justice system that administers custodial punishment, not corporal or capital punishment. It's something that defines us as a nation like the flag or the dual language status.
    This has nothing to do with the arming of police unless you want to legislate them to use their firearms to administer on the spot punishments.

    "Shoplifting is it? Fair enough I will have to blow your little toe off"
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Gun discharges outside of training need to be treated like air accidents. Investigated, publicly reported on, causes found. Every time a weapon is discharged. Every. Single. Time.
    Are they not?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Besides, more guns = more chances for stupid people to F*ck Around With Guns/ allow guns to get stolen.
    True but you cant no do something because it might get stolen.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    If you do want to get guns on the street in the hands of a group of people, of which you think every single one will carry them & use them properly every single minute of every single day they have them, then it has to be drilled drilled drilled drilled drilled drilled *drilled* into them,
    So what do you consider proper drilling in Firearms. Bearing in mind the officers do have other things to be doing.

    Deleted User wrote: »
    You Do Not,

    Do not

    Do. Not.

    F*ck Around With Guns.

    Ever.
    If you have no means of enforcing this in the non law abiding well then what the point of saying it.


  • #34
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    Seaslacker, you don't need to worry about the Gardai being armed making a serious societal change with respect to the number of firearms in general use/circulation.

    The are roughly 200,000 firearms currently licensed in the country. If you gave a gun to every Garda you'd increase that by what? 5%?


  • #35
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    IRLConor wrote: »
    Seaslacker, you don't need to worry about the Gardai being armed making a serious societal change with respect to the number of firearms in general use/circulation.

    The are roughly 200,000 firearms currently licensed in the country. If you gave a gun to every Garda you'd increase that by what? 5%?

    I don't think that's what he's saying. It's the emergence of a flippant approach to guns that he's worried about if all Gardaí were to be armed, not that all criminals would immediately arm themselves.


  • #36
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    donvito99 wrote: »
    I don't think that's what he's saying. It's the emergence of a flippant approach to guns that he's worried about if all Gardaí were to be armed, not that all criminals would immediately arm themselves.

    The point still stands though. There are loads of legally held firearms in the country already and we don't have a flippant approach to them. Why would routinely arming the Gardai make any real difference?


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  • #37
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    IRLConor wrote: »
    The point still stands though. There are loads of legally held firearms in the country already and we don't have a flippant approach to them. Why would routinely arming the Gardai make any real difference?

    Let's just say that we would have to do our level best in the event of the arming of uniformed Gardaí to avoid recourse to firearms, as seems to be the case in the US, over trivial issues like traffic stops.


  • #38
    bravestar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Let's just say that we would have to do our level best in the event of the arming of uniformed Gardaí to avoid recourse to firearms, as seems to be the case in the US, over trivial issues like traffic stops.

    Are uniformed gardai somehow incapable of the same standard as the 3000, supposedly, armed members?

    Why would it be an issue arming them when there are plenty of armed gardai conducting traffic stops without shooting the country up?


  • #39
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Let's just say that we would have to do our level best in the event of the arming of uniformed Gardaí to avoid recourse to firearms, as seems to be the case in the US, over trivial issues like traffic stops.

    The US is in the position its in now because its people are routinely armed not because its Police are. All over europe police conduct their duties armed.


  • #40
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    bravestar wrote: »
    Are uniformed gardai somehow incapable of the same standard as the 3000, supposedly, armed members?

    Why would it be an issue arming them when there are plenty of armed gardai conducting traffic stops without shooting the country up?
    Zambia wrote: »
    The US is in the position its in now because its people are routinely armed not because its Police are. All over europe police conduct their duties armed.

    I agree with SeaSlacker when he says
    more guns = more chances for stupid people to F*ck Around With Guns

    and that is my position.


  • #41
    bravestar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    donvito99 wrote: »
    I agree with SeaSlacker when he says



    and that is my position.

    Ah right, well maybe we should just remove what little firearms AGS has, so there's less chance for people to f*ck around, and issue Care Bears instead so we can snuggle the criminals into remorse.

    Since when by the way, do police f*ck around with guns? The whole twirling your revolver around after you shoot a drifter in your town is so Wild West.


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  • #42
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Some of you should take a trip to NI where the PSNI carry out the exact same duties as their southern brothers in blue, but while armed at all times.
    There has been no issues of note.
    It has changed since but when I went through the depot every Garda was trained to a basic level of competency in firearms handling, and use. Qualification was mandatory.


  • #43
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,012 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I suppose the logic would be, if you know uniformed Gardai are armed as soon as an armed criminal sees a Garda the criminal is going to shoot first.
    A gun on your hip,or an Uzi on your lap doesnt stop bullets..
    they may well be a need for a lot more armed support ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #44
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    Markcheese wrote: »
    I suppose the logic would be, if you know uniformed Gardai are armed as soon as an armed criminal sees a Garda the criminal is going to shoot first.
    A gun on your hip,or an Uzi on your lap doesnt stop bullets..
    they may well be a need for a lot more armed support ...

    Not necessarily, police often have the element of surprise, it's also nice to know that if you are fired at and not hit that you have the ability to return fire and stop them from trying to kill you!


  • #45
    bravestar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    Markcheese wrote: »
    I suppose the logic would be, if you know uniformed Gardai are armed as soon as an armed criminal sees a Garda the criminal is going to shoot first.
    A gun on your hip,or an Uzi on your lap doesnt stop bullets..
    they may well be a need for a lot more armed support ...

    Armed support are useless when you have rounds flying at you at 1200 feet per sec. Doesn't matter what Volvo of the week their in, they can't do that speed. The only thing that really matters is being able to level the playing field and stop the threat, there and then. Not in 10 minutes time.


  • #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bravestar wrote: »
    Armed support are useless when you have rounds flying at you at 1200 feet per sec. Doesn't matter what Volvo of the week their in, they can't do that speed. The only thing that really matters is being able to level the playing field and stop the threat, there and then. Not in 10 minutes time.

    Can you tell me how often this situation occurs in the Irish Republic?

    I will say that if it was a case of having ordinary guards getting shot at week in week out then I'd be all for arming them. But we're not there yet. and please God we never will be there. I'd even go as far as to say that it'd be acceptable to arm guards when they're working in certain areas which are of higher risk to them (Moyross type places, based on evidence of actual threat to Guard's life)

    But if you're telling me that the guard down in the depths of Ballaghadreen or Oughterard or any ballygoanywhere coming back to station from telling a family their son is dead in an RTA down country or witnessing a document getting signed needs to have a gun on his/her hip "just in case dem dubblin gangland lads come rownd heer hoorin an rapen an killen", I've yet to see the use for it.

    I don't see a use for it and I see a danger in it being there unused.


  • #47
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Can you tell me how often this situation occurs in the Irish Republic?

    I will say that if it was a case of having ordinary guards getting shot at week in week out then I'd be all for arming them. But we're not there yet. and please God we never will be there. I'd even go as far as to say that it'd be acceptable to arm guards when they're working in certain areas which are of higher risk to them (Moyross type places, based on evidence of actual threat to Guard's life)

    But if you're telling me that the guard down in the depths of Ballaghadreen or Oughterard or any ballygoanywhere coming back to station from telling a family their son is dead in an RTA down country or witnessing a document getting signed needs to have a gun on his/her hip "just in case dem dubblin gangland lads come rownd heer hoorin an rapen an killen", I've yet to see the use for it.

    I don't see a use for it and I see a danger in it being there unused.

    There were two gardai shot dead near ballaghadreen following an armed robbery, these things only happen in Dublin I guess!


  • #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That was in 1980.

    I wasn't even alive then.


  • #49
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    That was in 1980.

    I wasn't even alive then.

    Bet the sun will rise the same time as you in the morning as well!


  • #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    Bet the sun will rise the same time as you in the morning as well!

    Eh? Nothing to do with me. I'm saying an incident 30 years ago is no indicator of the need or otherwise of a defence against a similar incident.

    If all guards were getting shot at regularly, then by all means arm all of them. They're not. And when they are shot at, there's armed guards trained and ready to deal with the threat.


  • #51
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Eh? Nothing to do with me. I'm saying an incident 30 years ago is no indicator of the need or otherwise of a defence against a similar incident.

    If all guards were getting shot at regularly, then by all means arm all of them. They're not. And when they are, there's armed guards trained and ready to deal with the threat.

    How many garda deaths would have to happen before you would consider it?

    The PSNI are armed and they don't have too many getting murdered unless you want to go back to the 80's but then again you were not born so it doesn't count!


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  • #52
    The Maverick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 417 ✭✭The Maverick


    Deleted User wrote: »
    ......If all guards were getting shot at regularly, then by all means arm all of them. They're not. And when they are, there's armed guards trained and ready to deal with the threat.

    That's not much comfort if you're an unarmed guard and find yourself being shot at is it? How far away might the nearest rsu/ detective unit be? Even if they're only 5 minutes away, that's still a long 5 minutes.

    That being said, I don't wish to see a situation where all guards are armed either. However, that's easy for me to say as a civilian and not someone who has a good chance of confronting an armed person.


  • #53
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Deleted User wrote: »
    That was in 1980.

    I wasn't even alive then.

    Take a look at the locations where gardai, Armed and unarmed have been shot and killed.
    Gangland Dublin or even Moyross (Which is actually a lovely place with great people) don't enter the equation, but it proves the need for armed response availability everywhere, not just regional.

    Callan
    Scartaglen
    Baltinglass
    Pearse St (Dublin)
    Carrick on Suir
    Fanore, Co Clare
    Union Quay, Cork
    Rathgar Road
    Ballyboden
    Kilnaleck
    Donnycarney
    Pallasgreen, Co Limerick
    Arran Quay
    Raheny
    Ballaghadreen
    Cleariestown, Co Wexford
    Tallaght
    Dunboyne
    Ballinamore, Co Leitrim
    Drumree, Co Meath
    Tallanstown, Co Meath
    Adare, Co Limerick


  • #54
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Eh? Nothing to do with me. I'm saying an incident 30 years ago is no indicator of the need or otherwise of a defence against a similar incident.

    If all guards were getting shot at regularly, then by all means arm all of them. They're not. And when they are shot at, there's armed guards trained and ready to deal with the threat.

    How frequently would you like them to get shot at before you think arming them is required?

    Once a month? Once a Week? Once a day? Once an Hour?

    Because being shot at once in a career is once too much for a society that has respect for law and order.


  • #55
    bravestar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Can you tell me how often this situation occurs in the Irish Republic?

    I will say that if it was a case of having ordinary guards getting shot at week in week out then I'd be all for arming them. But we're not there yet. and please God we never will be there. I'd even go as far as to say that it'd be acceptable to arm guards when they're working in certain areas which are of higher risk to them (Moyross type places, based on evidence of actual threat to Guard's life)

    But if you're telling me that the guard down in the depths of Ballaghadreen or Oughterard or any ballygoanywhere coming back to station from telling a family their son is dead in an RTA down country or witnessing a document getting signed needs to have a gun on his/her hip "just in case dem dubblin gangland lads come rownd heer hoorin an rapen an killen", I've yet to see the use for it.

    I don't see a use for it and I see a danger in it being there unused.

    What do you do for a living seaslacker and have you ever been a Garda/police officer? Genuine question.


  • #56
    meathstevie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,777 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Let's just say that we would have to do our level best in the event of the arming of uniformed Gardaí to avoid recourse to firearms, as seems to be the case in the US, over trivial issues like traffic stops.

    Do you realise that a traffic stop is just about the most unpredictable situation a police officer can deal with on a day to day basis. You can run a check on the plate and find out who owns the motor you've stopped, if it has tax and insurance etc etc but there's one thing you can never account for: who's behind the wheel.

    If it's the law abiding owner all well and good tbut hat's not always the case. If you went looking for the details and figures relating to Garda and PSNI serious injuries and deaths caused by criminals in vehicles for the last ten years I reckon you could be in for a bit of a shock.

    By the way, the Police ombudsman and the Garda ombudsman commission do not only investigate every incident where a firearm is discharged outside training or to put down an animal they also take very close interest in every incident where a firearm is used. Used in the meaning of drawn and pointed or pointed or a laser dot actived and projected on someone etc etc without there ever having been a shot fired.

    There's nothing secret about that info either, you can find it all on the respective ombudsman websites.


  • #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bravestar wrote: »
    What do you do for a living seaslacker and have you ever been a Garda/police officer? Genuine question.

    Irrelevant. Not turning this into an "you're not one of us" argument.

    I will say I'm no activist. I think I've met goldie fish on one occasion when he came up to Dublin to meet up with members of another military minded web forum.

    Edit: thanks meathstevie, you've made the point that firearm incidents are already well documented & treated as seriously as is warranted.


  • #58
    bravestar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Irrelevant. Not turning this into an "you're not one of us" argument.

    I will say I'm no activist. I think I've met goldie fish on one occasion when he came up to Dublin to meet up with members of another military minded web forum.

    Edit: thanks meathstevie, you've made the point that firearm incidents are already well documented & treated as seriously as is warranted.

    Dont try and discount the question. It's actually quite relevant, as I do not try to tell you how to do your job or what tools you should use for it.

    Why? Because I know when I know nothing about a subject and i dont have the arrogance to think I know better than the people involved in it.

    Oh and being a member of Irish military online, the PDF or RDF, meeting goldie or Andre the giant, does not mean you know anything about policing, as you have clearly demonstrated.


  • #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This isn't a union's closed shop forum, or a canteen. It's a public viewable & replyable forum. If you've an issue with my being here, then take it up with the mods.

    I think this thread's run it's course, it's gotten far too personal. Fact is guards aren't getting more arms anytime soon, and there's a sizeable chunk of the population that think arming every single guard is a bad idea.


  • #60
    bravestar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    This isn't a union's closed shop forum, or a canteen. It's a public viewable & replyable forum. If you've an issue with my being here, then take it up with the mods.

    I think this thread's run it's course, it's gotten far too personal. Fact is guards aren't getting more arms anytime soon, and there's a sizeable chunk of the population that think arming every single guard is a bad idea.

    You still fail to address the points I raised or answer the question I asked you, but that in itself is answer enough.

    Im sorry that your inability to put across a valid argument had led to you feeling like things are personal. They are not.


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  • #61
    Locust
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 319 ✭✭Locust


    Deleted User wrote: »
    ...and there's a sizeable chunk of the population that think arming every single guard is a bad idea.

    I believe there is also a sizeable chunk that think routinely arming is a good idea, (and a few sitting on the fence). In fact i wouldn't be surprised if it was 50/50 both for and against.
    Ireland has changed and is changing.
    I'd be interested to see the the votes in a nationwide poll.


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