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clairefontaine · 08-03-2013 05:26PM

Those are things I have noticed and also noticed to be corrosive.

If you are happy with them and their outputs, and are acceptable then it's good to know where you stand on them and they are not reportable. That makes things a little clearer, even if the products of these habits are personally irritating.

I suppose in those cases where an individual user has a different sense what is acceptable to those of the forum moderators or charter, than it's an option to place users who do have those habits on ignore and move on, but then you can't complain that people aren't reporting posts, if users end up having have 5-10 people on their ignore lists.

And I have read the charter there is nothing there on whataboutery or using tactics to deflect criticism. It has a vague introduction about a woman's point of view, and says nothing on whether or not it welcomes or discourages contradiction.

Wibbs · 08-03-2013 06:08PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

And I have read the charter there is nothing there on whataboutery or using tactics to deflect criticism.

You're dead right and that needs to be worked on, especially given how much of that stuff we've had to contend with in the past.

clairefontaine · 08-03-2013 06:12PM

Wibbs wrote: »

You're dead right and that needs to be worked on, especially given how much of that stuff we've had to contend with in the past.

You might consider the whataboutery to be basically changing the subject and count it as off topic?

That is essentially what it is in many regards.

I understand the temptation to do it because it's hard to talk about one injustice without bringing up another, but maybe suggest making another thread?

But it does have to be made much clearer in the charter marking out the difference between criticism and whataboutery, otherwise you can't accuse people of breaking the charter, especially if this has been a big problem in the past. The difference is not always that clear to many.

Wibbs · 08-03-2013 06:26PM

Agreed, but generally it's pretty clear CF. EG thread discussing women and I dunno promotion and sooner or later you'd get a guy(s) coming along with "nonsense, what about men who don't get promoted??". Rinse and repeat and the women's opinion in a woman's forum was getting drowned out. We've had this on threads about abortion, online dating, contraception, weight issues and eating disorders, divorce, sexism, you name it. And it got really tiresome. While not an exact comparison of course, I think of it like me hoping into the Motors forum and every time someone asks about cars I'd reply with have you considered a bike. Like you say and a good description CF

it's off topic

clairefontaine · 09-03-2013 10:12AM

I think it could only help you if you make it clearer in your charter that whataboutery is considered changing the subject. Some people mightn't see it that way. Also some topics are presented poorly so that the "topic" is unclear too.

Otherwise if you ban someone for whataboutery and tell them to read the charter, they will read it but see nothing about it.

Snoopy1 · 17-03-2013 07:54PM

Havnt been on here in about 3 months but heres my opinion.
Its boring. mY first time logging on in 3 months and the threads are :
How do you feel
How do u fall in love
How did u meet other half
What do you want to say

Yawn
Plus its become bitchy and cliquey

Lucyfur · 17-03-2013 07:56PM

Snoopy1 wrote: »

Havnt been on here in about 3 months but heres my opinion.
Its boring. mY first time logging on in 3 months and the threads are :
How do you feel
How do u fall in love
How did u meet other half
What do you want to say

Yawn
Plus its become bitchy and cliquey

Can you give examples of this please as it's something we do our best to discourage.

17-03-2013 07:57PM

There're also threads about books, women's day, sexism, and the laundries. All from March.
One might suggest you start interesting threads if you find it all boring

daenerysstormborn3 · 17-03-2013 07:59PM

Snoopy1 wrote: »

Havnt been on here in about 3 months but heres my opinion.
Its boring. mY first time logging on in 3 months and the threads are :
How do you feel
How do u fall in love
How did u meet other half
What do you want to say

Yawn
Plus its become bitchy and cliquey

If you find it so boring but obviously still feel compelled to contribute then why don't you start some threads about things that interest you?

Snoopy1 · 17-03-2013 08:02PM

pixiebean22 wrote: »

If you find it so boring but obviously still feel compelled to contribute then why don't you start some threads about things that interest you?

Because I cant be bothered, when everyone immediately jumps down your throat and the mods move or close threads immediately.
I just voiced my opinion and immediately theres a backlash.

17-03-2013 08:04PM

Snoopy1 wrote: »

Because I cant be bothered, when everyone immediately jumps down your throat and the mods move or close threads immediately.
I just voiced my opinion and immediately theres a backlash.

Did you really expect any different when you posted "yawn"?

If you find it cliquey please don't be afraid of giving feedback, but you can understand that when you take only a small selection of the current threads and tell us the whole forum is boring you "yawn" you can understand our frustration.

There's no backlash anyway, you got one mod asking you for details because they are concerned, and two of us suggesting a solution - start your own threads if you find all the current ones boring. I also suggested other ones you might find more of interest.

daenerysstormborn3 · 17-03-2013 08:07PM

Snoopy1 wrote: »

Because I cant be bothered, when everyone immediately jumps down your throat and the mods move or close threads immediately.
I just voiced my opinion and immediately theres a backlash.

I'd hardly call suggesting you start some threads that interest you a backlash. You obviously still want to contribute, hence your reason for logging in today, but have said none of the threads interest you, therefore it makes sense to suggest you start threads that interest you if you want to contribute

Lucyfur · 17-03-2013 08:07PM

Snoopy1 wrote: »

Because I cant be bothered, when everyone immediately jumps down your throat and the mods move or close threads immediately.
I just voiced my opinion and immediately theres a backlash.

Just to clarify, we ONLY move threads that there is another forum for, as do all the other forums on boards.

Threads are only locked if they are completely unsuitable. Or rude. Or, naturally enough, if they end up going completely off topic.

I don't see backlash, only opinions that may make tLL better for you. Obviously it is up to you to decide whether or not to post in tLL.

clairefontaine · 17-03-2013 08:17PM

What is the point of feedback?

You ask for it and then you negate what you hear? Hardly worthwhile. And then you basically have the "if you don't like it you can go somewhere else" attitude, rather than take on board what YOU asked for in the first place.

Over half the first page of threads is mushy talk about your feelings, your boyfriend, threads, and a marathon and a rugby thread. S/he finds it boring. A lot of people would.

I agree with her or him, it is a little boring and the reason I don't start threads is because I don't fully get what is meant by a womans point of view or exactly how much dissent or differring viewpoints are tolerated/appreciated in here., mentioned that I'm winging it half the time in here and got accused of trolling.

I suppose I should just F off rather than actually try to get information like I did before and basically got nowhere. And before you suggest that I do, you already did a few pages back.

So much for tolerance and understanding.

daenerysstormborn3 · 17-03-2013 08:20PM

Who said "if you don't like it, go somewhere else"? Suggesting that someone start threads here that interest them is the complete opposite to that statement.

17-03-2013 08:21PM

We didn't negate it. Lucyfur asked for examples so she could deal with any cliquey stuff, the rest of us made suggestions. I don't see what else there is as a solution to "yawn" and "i can't be bothered starting threads myself".
I find the mushy ones boring, but I also know other people obviously like them, so I stick to the more serious ones I mentioned earlier already. They're not exactly buried anywhere, they're all still active this month, as I said.
How about you post something more along the lines of "how about we discuss xyz instead" and we can have a more constructive conversation?

Lucyfur · 17-03-2013 08:23PM

Well, what do you want from tLL? Without ''yawn'' and ''F off'' type answers, please.

What would make it a better place for you to enjoy posting in?

I understand that many don't like the likes of the chat thread, or the light hearted off topic type threads, but many posters do like them.

I can see that they can get a bit same-y...what topics would you like to see discussed?

daenerysstormborn3 · 17-03-2013 08:27PM

Nearly every thread on the first page of TLL was started by a different poster, I don't understand how the fault for these threads lies with TLL. People like different things, they like to talk about different things... surely you can understand that given your own differing tastes.

RacoonQueen · 17-03-2013 08:28PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

I agree with her or him, it is a little boring and the reason I don't start threads is because I don't fully get what is meant by a womans point of view or exactly how much dissent or differring viewpoints are tolerated/appreciated in here., mentioned that I'm winging it half the time in here and got accused of trolling.

Here lies a problem. Completely agree with this. Threads get closed or moved because they're 'not suitable for the forum' there shouldn't really be an 'off topic' thread in this forum, based on the forum description, more or less anything could go. Essentially this is an 'after hours' for women - its a general forum, with general discussion, or thats the way it essentially should be, based on forum description.

clairefontaine · 17-03-2013 08:32PM

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Who said "if you don't like it, go somewhere else"? Suggesting that someone start threads here that interest them is the complete opposite to that statement.

Starting new threads was not a suggestion made to me, it was a suggestion made to snoopy. It was suggested to me that I don't post here if I have the queries/ criticisms that I had/have.... [which were not about being bored but about a general confusion about this board].

Criticism in my view is not about persecution, it's about wanting something to succeed and trying ways to make it better.

And no, I AM NOT TROLLING when I say I'm winging it half the time.

daenerysstormborn3 · 17-03-2013 08:42PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

Starting new threads was not a suggestion made to me, it was a suggestion made to snoopy. It was suggested to me that I don't post here if I have the queries/ criticisms that I had/have.... [which were not about being bored but about a general confusion about this board].

Criticism in my view is not about persecution, it's about wanting something to succeed and trying ways to make it better.

And no, I AM NOT TROLLING when I say I'm winging it half the time.

I have responded to Snoopy's posts, other than that, I don't understand what you're getting at.

Wibbs · 17-03-2013 08:44PM

Shoot me down in flames, but for me there are broadly three kinds of feedback; criticism, constructive criticism and solutions offered. The first is pretty much valueless in most cases, unless it's something that has genuinely been missed. TBH here as in life I largely ignore that kinda thing. The latter two are valuable and solutions are a godsend. EG Clairefontaine you offered welcome constructive criticism and even solutions a while back and thank you that stuff is appreciated(and will be implemented), but the "maybe I should eff off" type stuff isn't close to the same standard of yours.

Basically I agree with what you said here;

clairefontaine wrote:

Criticism in my view is not about persecution, it's about wanting something to succeed and trying ways to make it better.

Emphasis mine.

Snoopy1 was responded to in the manner she was because "boring" and "yawn" is not feedback. It's certainly not constructive feedback and she offered no solutions to this "feedback". Neither is "mods close move threads". As has been pointed out we only move threads that don't fit in here and close threads(quite rarely compared to many actually) because they're trolls, or have gone waaay off topic or divisive. EG in the last week or so I've moved a couple of fashion threads, gift threads and a personal issues thread and I've closed or deleted a couple of trolls. Would Snoopy1 prefer if such threads remained here? I suspect not and no doubt would garner more "boring yawns".

pixiebean22 wrote:

Nearly every thread on the first page of TLL was started by a different poster, I don't understand how the fault for these threads lies with TLL. People like different things, they like to talk about different things... surely you can understand that given your own differing tastes.

and no one is stopping anybody opening new thread subjects.

Lucyfur · 17-03-2013 08:46PM

''A woman's point of view'' is exactly that. It's a place to discuss things, life events, the price of cabbage, with other women, from a woman's perspective. Men, of course, are welcome, and we welcome this, once it doesn't turn into a ''all women are...'' type debate.

tLL is just a little corner of the internet for us.

Threads that are moved are mostly issues that are best suited to PI, or Fashion & Appearance, etc. We don't move threads to be mean. We move threads to the most suitable forum for the OP to get the best responses for their query.

Anyone have any ideas for new threads?

Wibbs · 17-03-2013 08:49PM

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Here lies a problem. Completely agree with this. Threads get closed or moved because they're 'not suitable for the forum' there shouldn't really be an 'off topic' thread in this forum, based on the forum description, more or less anything could go. Essentially this is an 'after hours' for women - its a general forum, with general discussion, or thats the way it essentially should be, based on forum description.

So you want "what gifts do I buy my GF/BF, help me with my relationship, do I wear these shoes with this outfit" etc. Because they're the kinda general subject matter that gets moved around here. BTW After Hours would move those too. Plus can you give any examples recent or otherwise of thread subjects that were moved that you consider suitable for the forum? Recent or ancient, your choice as examples would be handy so we know what we're dealing with.

clairefontaine · 17-03-2013 09:06PM

Wibbs wrote: »

So you want "what gifts do I buy my GF/BF, help me with my relationship, do I wear these shoes with this outfit" etc. Because they're the kinda general subject matter that gets moved around here. BTW After Hours would move those too. Plus can you give any examples recent or otherwise of thread subjects that were moved that you consider suitable for the forum? Recent or ancient, your choice as examples would be handy so we know what we're dealing with.

The problem is "the womans' point of view." Yes I know why this forum started, because of the off topic, rude, negating comments so many women's experienced garnered on the rest of boards. Frankly, if they were recognised as rude, negating and off topic in the first place, you wouldn't need a "drawing room" on boards ie. So because it's for "a womans' point of view" you get people here looking for a "woman's point of view" on any variety of subjects, some serious and some frivolous. It's understandable that someone would come here looking for a womans' point of view...after all that's what this place is for isn't it? So the frivolous ones, like advice on gifts get moved somewhere, but other frivolous ones get to stick around.

Obviously as human beings, consistency is a limited and limiting expectation, so these frivoloties, the ones that stick around or the ones that get moved, don't really bother me either way.

But the opaqueness on what generalities are tolerated and what aren't, what archetypes are stomached and what are rejected, what touchy subjects, what hit a nerve comments, whether by men or women [for example I think an interesting autobiographical topic would be "WHAT STEREOTYPICAL QUALITIES DO YOU HAVE?" ] can be presented and what can't, can be inhibiting, which is why you get half of the first page full of mushy flaky threads.

So that's ok with me to keep the more insipid topics, but you might have a far more interesting place here, if people had a better idea of where they stood - both male and female contributors, so they can post interesting if uncomfortable subject matter.

RacoonQueen · 17-03-2013 09:07PM

Lucyfur wrote: »

''A woman's point of view'' is exactly that. It's a place to discuss things, life events, the price of cabbage, with other women, from a woman's perspective. Men, of course, are welcome, and we welcome this, once it doesn't turn into a ''all women are...'' type debate.

tLL is just a little corner of the internet for us.

Threads that are moved are mostly issues that are best suited to PI, or Fashion & Appearance, etc. We don't move threads to be mean. We move threads to the most suitable forum for the OP to get the best responses for their query.

Anyone have any ideas for new threads?

Sometimes it can be a case of people being aware that other forums are there, but they still choose to post here.

I knew you'd ask for examples but I have none. Looked a few pages back before I posted and there were none I'd use. The number of discussion threads, about general topics seems to have dropped off lately, have no input as to why that might be.

Morag · 17-03-2013 09:09PM

In my experience "interesting if uncomfortable subject matter" often gets few responses and falls off the front page swiftly and we have more trival/fluff/light hearthed threads which stay in the top 10 threads on the forum no matter really when you log in.
If there isn't an interest in a topic then there isn't.

Larianne · 17-03-2013 09:10PM

Lucyfur wrote: »

Anyone have any ideas for new threads?

Yeah - would you shave your hair off like Jesse J for charity or do you regard your hair as part of your femininity and so it's a bit of a no-no?

I think Feedback threads are always going to be a bit, emotional(?). I see it all the time in the Feedback forum. I tend to write out a post and then don't bother to post it. I often wonder whether there is a point to them? So while you may not like Snoopy's post, she is giving her opinion on the forum (with or without any suggestions on how to change it). Sometimes it's difficult to come up with a solution to things, especially if someone is frustrated with a forum, for whatever reason.

I dunno. I think a lot of posters who used to contribute well to the forum, don't post in tLL any more. Why not, I'm not sure? Maybe because they feel that if they give a different opinion to others and argue it, the words 'bitchy' tends to be thrown around. I know I've seen that a bit. Hard to argue a point when people start saying that.

There is a slight clique that can be seen in the chat thread. I don't think it's as bad as it was though. But there are a number of posters, that if there is any sort of kerfuffle on the thread, I can be pretty certain of who is involved. I don't think mods have been strict enough with them (although this may have changed most recently - I haven't been following the thread that much).

I think people need to realise with the chat thread, (like what has just been stated above in a number of posts) that not everyone is going to find what everybody posts in the chat thread as interesting. The majority of posters remain civil to each other and those who don't, well I don't see why they should keep getting warnings and posts deleted and not infractions or bans. I think in that regard mods should be more objective in their decisions.

A forum is shaped by the people who post in it. If the majority of posters want the type of threads that are in here now, well that's fair enough. If it's to be changed, then I guess people need to start threads of their own. It might entice more posters back into the forum or encourage new posters to visit the forum.

KamiKazeKitten · 17-03-2013 09:16PM

Larianne wrote: »

I think Feedback threads are always going to be a bit, emotional(?). I see it all the time in the Feedback forum. I tend to write out a post and then don't bother to post it. I often wonder whether there is a point to them? So while you may not like Snoopy's post, she is giving her opinion on the forum (with or without any suggestions on how to change it). Sometimes it's difficult to come up with a solution to things, especially if someone is frustrated with a forum, for whatever reason.

I dunno. I think a lot of posters who used to contribute well to the forum, don't post in tLL any more. Why not, I'm not sure? Maybe because they feel that if they give a different opinion to others and argue it, the words 'bitchy' tends to be thrown around. I know I've seen that a bit. Hard to argue a point when people start saying that.

Oh this has me written all over it. Even in the last few minutes I've started typing out three different replies, thought "fcuk it" and clicked back into my reddit.

There are threads in here that I just don't post in, for various reasons. Some I just see as complete fluff, some just aren't relevant to me, others I'd most likely be going against the main opinion and...to be honest I am just not bothered with that. But y'know, that's the nature of a forum, different people will post different threads, and like I said way back at the start of this feedback, I don't have to be interested in them all!

Stheno · 17-03-2013 09:19PM

Morag wrote: »

In my experience "interesting if uncomfortable subject matter" often gets few responses and falls off the front page swiftly and we have more trival/fluff/light hearthed threads which stay in the top 10 threads on the forum no matter really when you log in.
If there isn't an interest in a topic then there isn't.

I agree with this, I'd suggest that maybe one in five "serious/interesting if uncomfortable topics" gain traction on this forum, but most others last 2-5 pages as people lose interest/the topic fizzles out.

I suspect a lot of that is down to the demographic of the forum, which overall, is populated with a huge proportion of under 30s who may not necessarily have the interest in these topics, haven't had life experience of them etc.

@ clarefontaine, the way to look at the "womens viewpoint" is that this forum is for women to discuss topics, without being bombarded with "men face x,y,x" type opinions as one example.

Larianne wrote: »

I think people need to realise with the chat thread, (like what has just been stated above in a number of posts) that not everyone is going to find what everybody posts in the chat thread as interesting. The majority of posters remain civil to each other and those who don't, well I don't see why they should keep getting warnings and posts deleted and not infractions or bans. I think in that regard mods should be more objective in their decisions.

A forum is shaped by the people who post in it. If the majority of posters want the type of threads that are in here now, well that's fair enough. If it's to be changed, then I guess people need to start threads of their own. It might entice more posters back into the forum or encourage new posters to visit the forum.

Agree with both of the above

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