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Feb 9th Protest - will you be joining?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 54,768 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    I doubt he has any idea.

    Has the Government?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    After the economic treason FG/FF/Lab have commited against the Irish people last night and the early hours of this morning, its gone beyond just a street protest-
    . I think people in huge numbers need to force this government out, if that means surrounding the Dail for days on end so be it. Waiting for a general election is too late, just imagine what damage these clowns will do by then. We won't have a country left.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 54,768 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Am Chile wrote: »
    After the economic treason FG/FF/Lab have commited against the Irish people last night and the early hours of this morning, its gone beyond just a street protest-
    . I think people in huge numbers need to force this government out, if that means surrounding the Dail for days on end so be it. Waiting for a general election is too late, just imagine what damage these clowns will do by then. We won't have a country left.


    I am reading up on it and trying to find out exactly what happened last night and what it means for us, our children and our grandchildren.

    Anyone able to put it in a nut-shell ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Not going- 6 Nations is on :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,099 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    Am Chile wrote: »
    After the economic treason FG/FF/Lab have commited against the Irish people last night and the early hours of this morning, its gone beyond just a street protest-
    . I think people in huge numbers need to force this government out, if that means surrounding the Dail for days on end so be it. Waiting for a general election is too late, just imagine what damage these clowns will do by then. We won't have a country left.

    There was no treason commited last night, the treason was commited in 2008 by the Fianna Fail traitors and last night was merely a re-financing of that treason. Learn some history first before making some stupid outrageous statements.

    Fianna Fail crippled the country and socialised the private debts of their cronie bankers, when Anglo Irish Bank was Nationilsed its debts came with it, last night was the current Government trying to make the best of a very bad situation.

    What will you do vote FF now over this?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 54,768 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Stinicker wrote: »
    There was no treason commited last night, the treason was commited in 2008 by the Fianna Fail traitors and last night was merely a re-financing of that treason. Learn some history first before making some stupid outrageous statements.

    Fianna Fail crippled the country and socialised the private debts of their cronie bankers, when Anglo Irish Bank was Nationilsed its debts came with it, last night was the current Government trying to make the best of a very bad situation.

    What will you do vote FF now over this?

    Why didn't Fine Gael re-negotiate or renege on behalf of the people though?
    Also why didn't they kick up at the time? Did they not know what was happening?
    Have they not carried on with the same policies since?

    In my opinion they seem to be all as stupid as each other.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,099 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    Why didn't Fine Gael re-negotiate or renege on behalf of the people though?
    Also why didn't they kick up at the time? Did they not know what was happening?
    Have they not carried on with the same policies since?

    In my opinion they seem to be all as stupid as each other.

    Fianna Fail signed the country down for the debt, had this Government reneged on the promissory note then country would default and be frozen from the markets. The country is already running a deficit of €12billion annually and spends more than it takes in, at the moment they can borrow from the troika to cover this shortfall and a default would cause a run on the banks and send the country into anarchy in days. Look at Argentina or some of the african countries this has happened to.

    What should should have happened was nothing, in 2008 Anglo Irish bank should have been left fold and burn the bondholders and make those in debt to it pay the piper. However Fianna Fail is up to its eyeballs in corruption and held the state to ransom to bailout their buddies who had borrowed billions. The committted the biggest fraud in history and the fact they are allowed to exist as a political entity is a national disgrace.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 683 ✭✭✭starlings


    to those who are about to rant -



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,420 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Stinicker wrote: »
    There was no treason commited last night, the treason was commited in 2008 by the Fianna Fail traitors and last night was merely a re-financing of that treason. Learn some history first before making some stupid outrageous statements.

    Fianna Fail crippled the country and socialised the private debts of their cronie bankers, when Anglo Irish Bank was Nationilsed its debts came with it, last night was the current Government trying to make the best of a very bad situation.

    What will you do vote FF now over this?

    FG voted in favor of Fianna Fails plan to bail out banks, as did SF and pretty much everyone else apart from Labour. Also, last night's 'deal' has cemented that debt as part of our overall sovereign debt. Whatever chance we had (no matter how slim) of reneging on part of that, is now gone.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,099 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    FG voted in favor of Fianna Fails plan to bail out banks, as did SF and pretty much everyone else apart from Labour. Also, last night's 'deal' has cemented that debt as part of our overall sovereign debt. Whatever chance we had (no matter how slim) of reneging on part of that, is now gone.

    It was cemented by Fianna Fail, last night was a rearranging of the deck chairs on the Titanic and basically the thing will now be repaid over a longer timeframe and inflation will inflate the debt away to nothing over time.

    This will leave more money available for running the country and mean less cutbacks. The real elephant in the room is the Public Sector and the Deficit, 12 billion euro a year worth of tax increases and cutbacks must be found to just balance the books and the Public Sector must get cut back properly and eradicate the billions of waste, there needs to be proper incentives to get growth going again and create employment.

    Once the Government has balanced the books then the fiscal crisis will be over. The thing is Ireland experienced a massive boom and Fianna Fail pissed every single penny away on tax cuts, increasing the public sector and white elephant projects. They then gave every bit of money the state had to the banks and what they done was the single worst act ever committed on this island. Had they saved the money and not inflated the boom we could be positioned like Finland with a reasonable economy, average unemployment and there would be enough for everyone to go around. However Fianna Fail deliberately bankrupted the country to the benefit of themselves and their corrupt cronies.

    Fine Gael got a poisoned chalice but they are doing the right things to get the country back to stability, I did not vote for them but I will give them the credit that this mess is not of their making. I know who the real culpits are and they are Fianna Fail.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 935 ✭✭✭samsemtex


    Stinicker wrote: »
    Fianna Fail signed the country down for the debt, had this Government reneged on the promissory note then country would default and be frozen from the markets. The country is already running a deficit of €12billion annually and spends more than it takes in, at the moment they can borrow from the troika to cover this shortfall and a default would cause a run on the banks and send the country into anarchy in days. Look at Argentina or some of the african countries this has happened to.

    What should should have happened was nothing, in 2008 Anglo Irish bank should have been left fold and burn the bondholders and make those in debt to it pay the piper. However Fianna Fail is up to its eyeballs in corruption and held the state to ransom to bailout their buddies who had borrowed billions. The committted the biggest fraud in history and the fact they are allowed to exist as a political entity is a national disgrace.

    WTF are you on about? Comparing us to Argentina or an African country is nonsensical. We are in the EU, our central bank is in the EU. Why arent you comparing us to Greece? They are in the EU just like us but are in an even worse situation. You are believing all the nonsense and rhetoric coming out of the government and ECB. We had a very strong bargaining chip. We are supposedly the poster boys of Europe, if the EU let this fail to pieces they would seriously struggle to make any valid claims that their strategy is working. All we had to do is say we are not paying this debt. It was an IOU with no real legal standing. They couldnt MAKE us pay it.

    Greece has defaulted 4 times and there is still money coming out of the ATMs. In return they have gotten their debt cut. We have paid every penny and in return have been given zero debt forgiveness. The ECB cannot stop giving us money. They print it for a reason. If we said "no we're not paying it" it wouldnt have been the end of the world, they can deny it all they want but its true. If Greece defaults again, they will just get more money from the ECB. The fact so many people fall for the ECBs nonsense is truly frightening.

    Also, from your continuing blame of Fianna Fail you sound like a government sympathiser. Bear in mind that when FF presented the bank guarantee Fine Gael went along with it on the basis of good faith after not understanding what they were signing. It turned out to be a catastrophic decision, now FG have come along at the 11th hour and asked the opposition to do the exact same thing. And of course learning no lessons from the past they go ahead and do it. Blaming FF when FG are practising the exact same policies and procedures now is laughable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Am Chile wrote: »
    After the economic treason FG/FF/Lab have commited against the Irish people last night and the early hours of this morning, its gone beyond just a street protest-
    . I think people in huge numbers need to force this government out, if that means surrounding the Dail for days on end so be it. Waiting for a general election is too late, just imagine what damage these clowns will do by then. We won't have a country left.

    What the hell are you on about?
    The Government concluded successful negotiations on the PN debt, having done what they promised to do and having succeeded in doing a bit of what ICTU were calling for in this protest - lifting some of the burden.

    Some people are just addicted to outrage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 935 ✭✭✭samsemtex


    Also, all those who have been saying protesting changes nothing and how we should just suck it all up just reminded me of this video:



    Cretins, all of them.


  • Site Banned Posts: 5 bertusik


    Well said. The government have to be commended on this. They delivered exactly what they promised. We turned a corner today
    dvpower wrote: »
    What the hell are you on about?
    The Government concluded successful negotiations on the PN debt, having done what they promised to do and having succeeded in doing a bit of what ICTU were calling for in this protest - lifting some of the burden.

    Some people are just addicted to outrage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,775 ✭✭✭✭kfallon


    wprathead wrote: »
    Not going- 6 Nations is on :)

    Yeah - Westbrits v England this weekend.......

    :pac: *dons tin hat*

    I'm only kiddin', c'mon the chaps!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 935 ✭✭✭samsemtex


    bertusik wrote: »
    Well said. The government have to be commended on this. They delivered exactly what they promised. We turned a corner today

    I'm thinking about just communicating through video from now on. For some reason this video just came to mind now.



  • Site Banned Posts: 5 bertusik


    It must be a sad day. Enjoy your protest for the sake of protesting.
    samsemtex wrote: »
    I'm thinking about just communicating through video from now on. For some reason this video just came to mind now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 54,768 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Stinicker wrote: »
    It was cemented by Fianna Fail, last night was a rearranging of the deck chairs on the Titanic and basically the thing will now be repaid over a longer timeframe and inflation will inflate the debt away to nothing over time.

    This will leave more money available for running the country and mean less cutbacks. The real elephant in the room is the Public Sector and the Deficit, 12 billion euro a year worth of tax increases and cutbacks must be found to just balance the books and the Public Sector must get cut back properly and eradicate the billions of waste, there needs to be proper incentives to get growth going again and create employment.

    Once the Government has balanced the books then the fiscal crisis will be over. The thing is Ireland experienced a massive boom and Fianna Fail pissed every single penny away on tax cuts, increasing the public sector and white elephant projects. They then gave every bit of money the state had to the banks and what they done was the single worst act ever committed on this island. Had they saved the money and not inflated the boom we could be positioned like Finland with a reasonable economy, average unemployment and there would be enough for everyone to go around. However Fianna Fail deliberately bankrupted the country to the benefit of themselves and their corrupt cronies.

    Fine Gael got a poisoned chalice but they are doing the right things to get the country back to stability, I did not vote for them but I will give them the credit that this mess is not of their making. I know who the real culpits are and they are Fianna Fail.

    Yes but didn't Fine Gael criticise every Fianna Fail budget and complain that they were not giving enough. They seemed to want even more giveaways which would have made everything worse hence my stupidity remark earlier.
    I don't think either party knew what was happening back in 2007/08.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 935 ✭✭✭samsemtex


    bertusik wrote: »
    It must be a sad day. Enjoy your protest for the sake of protesting.

    To someone like you it just really doesnt matter what you are information or facts you are given does it? No cognitive reasoning or lateral thinking takes place in your mind. Just swallow the rhetoric and move along. Of course if the party in power who had done this was Fianna Fail you'd be outraged i'm sure.

    No matter how many times economists, journalists and other experts from outside the government and ECB have told us that we are following the wrong route it just doesn't matter to someone like you. We have thrown away every bargaining chip we have ever had and ended up with no deal on money we DIDN'T have to pay. And yet you believe the government has done a good job.

    I commend the conveniences of the modern world in keeping you alive. Godspeed and may you never have to think for yourself again.


  • Site Banned Posts: 5 bertusik


    Pretty much Samsemtex - but you don't have to be a dick about it!

    But I also think it is important to realize that there are constraints upon what a responsible government can actually do, particularly in the wider European context.

    Plus, this is what they were elected to do. If the electorate wanted to 'burn the bondholders' they could have voted for Sinn Fein. But they voted for Fine Gael and Labour on the basis that they would getter a better deal.
    samsemtex wrote: »
    To someone like you it just really doesnt matter what you are told does it? No cognitive reasoning or lateral thinking takes place in your mind. Just swallow the rhetoric and move along. Of course if the party in power who had done this was Fianna Fail you'd be outraged i'm sure.

    No matter how many times economists, journalists and other experts from outside the government and ECB have told us that we are following the wrong route it just doesn't matter to someone like you. We have thrown away every bargaining chip we have ever had and ended up with no deal on money we DIDN'T have to pay. And yet you believe the government has done a good job.

    I commend the conveniences of the modern world in keeping you alive. Godspeed and may you never have to think for yourself again.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Yes but didn't Fine Gael criticise every Fianna Fail budget and complain that they were not giving enough. They seemed to want even more giveaways which would have made everything worse hence my stupidity remark earlier.
    I don't think either party knew what was happening back in 2007/08.


    The Fine Gael budget pre-election Government plan in 2002 when Michael Noonan was a fairly conservative one in terms of spending compared to most of the other parties. However they got absolutely hammered in the polls. The electorate doesn't want to here about sensible spending, they want money for nothing. Until our electorate gets a lot smarter, our political parties won't be. Neither will happen any time soon either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,702 ✭✭✭squod


    bertusik wrote: »

    Plus, this is what they were elected to do. If the electorate wanted to 'burn the bondholders' they could have voted for Sinn Fein. But they voted for Fine Gael and Labour on the basis that they would getter a better deal.

    Which is fair enough. 70% of people voted for austerity and that's completely acceptable. What's not acceptable is that many people directly effected by this don't have a voice. Your children (or your future children) will be paying these debts.

    What happened last night was a staged affront to democracy. I have no doubt of that. I have no intention of joining unions and Gardai in their protest. I do sympathise with those people who are genuinely aggrieved


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 54,768 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    The Fine Gael budget pre-election Government plan in 2002 when Michael Noonan was a fairly conservative one in terms of spending compared to most of the other parties. However they got absolutely hammered in the polls. The electorate doesn't want to here about sensible spending, they want money for nothing. Until our electorate gets a lot smarter, our political parties won't be. Neither will happen any time soon either.

    They must have changed tact after 2002 then as they repeatedly complained about the FF budgets not giving enough.
    Even last year after taking power they broke their own rules and promises by paying over the odds for advisers etc.
    I still don't think any of the main parties know what they're doing to be honest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    I am reading up on it and trying to find out exactly what happened last night and what it means for us, our children and our grandchildren.

    Anyone able to put it in a nut-shell ?

    David mcwilliams summed it up pretty well in his post on facebook.
    It is game set and match to the ECB. It is getting rid of the promissory note which was only a scribbled IOU and a vague undertaking to clear things up eventually
    and risked being changed by some Irish government. This is being converted into
    concrete Irish sovereign debt which means you and me are definitely on the hook.
    The ECB must be sniggered up its sleeve at the inability of the Irish
    negotiators to act on our behalf.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    They must have changed tact after 2002 then as they repeatedly complained about the FF budgets not giving enough.
    Even last year after taking power they broke their own rules and promises by paying over the odds for advisers etc.
    I still don't think any of the main parties know what they're doing to be honest.


    Of course they changed tact. Who wants to lead a party to another set of terrible general election results so he can get the boot? Noonan had to resign after the 2002 election, they lost about 20 seats or so. If you want to get into power you have to lie, there's no other way to do it. Imagine a political party running a pre-election manifesto along the lines of "Well we're running a €20bn deficit so there will have to be huge cuts and tax raises - property tax, water charge, increase tv license, increased VAT, Excise duty, car tax, petrol etc. Also need to cut child benefit, rent relief, numbers of PS jobs, add a pension levy. Even then that won't be enogh. Long term we'll need to cut pay for all Public service and probably raises taxes every year. So yea, vote for us." They wouldn't even get one TD.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 54,768 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Am Chile wrote: »
    David mcwilliams summed it up pretty well in his post on facebook.


    If it is as bad as Davis McWilliams is saying can we challenge it or can a new Government re-negotiate or renege on it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 54,768 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Of course they changed tact. Who wants to lead a party to another set of terrible general election results so he can get the boot? Noonan had to resign after the 2002 election, they lost about 20 seats or so. If you want to get into power you have to lie, there's no other way to do it. Imagine a political party running a pre-election manifesto along the lines of "Well we're running a €20bn deficit so there will have to be huge cuts and tax raises - property tax, water charge, increase tv license, increased VAT, Excise duty, car tax, petrol etc. Also need to cut child benefit, rent relief, numbers of PS jobs, add a pension levy. Even then that won't be enogh. Long term we'll need to cut pay for all Public service and probably raises taxes every year. So yea, vote for us." They wouldn't even get one TD.

    Yes but power is only temporary. The people will learn eventually and get them in the high grass next time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Yes but power is only temporary. The people will learn eventually and get them in the high grass next time.


    The people never really learn. Just look at Fianna Fail current popularity ratings.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    So are ICTU going to cancel the protest now, or just rewrite their speeches to something a lot more vague?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 54,768 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    dvpower wrote: »
    So are ICTU going to cancel the protest now, or just rewrite their speeches to something a lot more vague?

    How does last night change anything dv ?
    A lot of people saying that they landed us firmly in it for sure now and also our children and grandchildren.
    Did you read David McWilliams take on it?

    http://www.facebook.com/davidmcw/pos...52217753778306


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