Feb 9th Protest - will you be joining?

03-02-2013 12:13AM

dvpower wrote: »

We'll, yeah. I get what they say the problem is: Debt=Bad, No Jobs=Bad.
I don't need a protest march to know that.

But what do they want?? (please don't just say less debt and more jobs)

Well, one step they could take is to renege on paying the Anglo promissory note, which is due to be about €3 billion every year in perpetuity.

At least if the people have the temerity to protest, they can at least save billions that can be better spent

a) on education
b) on small and medium enterprises who cannot get cash from the banks.

Both of those are more constructive for the country as a whole than paying the promissory note

dvpower · 03-02-2013 12:36AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, one step they could take is to renege on paying the Anglo promissory note, which is due to be about €3 billion every year in perpetuity.

At least if the people have the temerity to protest, they can at least save billions that can be better spent

a) on education
b) on small and medium enterprises who cannot get cash from the banks.

Both of those are more constructive for the country as a whole than paying the promissory note

ICTU aren't calling for a debt default. This is the problem with this protest - they don't define what its about so everyone can put whatever flavour they want on it.

[Slightly off topic, but the idea that we can just default on debt and have more money to invest in the economy, without repercussions, is fcuking stupid]

Furious_George · 03-02-2013 12:38AM

dvpower wrote: »

This protest isn't about a specific issue. Its about 'debt and jobs' according to ICTU, but there are no specific demands or policies they want implemented.
Its just 'debt is bad'.

They may as we'll be protesting the bad weather.

I do agree with you on this point and that is why i still havnt decided if i will be out marching on this protest. If its march full of diverse groups shouting no debt no austerity then you wont find me within a mile of it.

My specific reason for marching would be to show both irish and european leaders that i am unhappy with the current promissory notes contract. I understand the economic logic behind the arguments against just writing them off but i believe there is room for manouver in the specifics . I believe that european leaders need to see that the irish people feel strongly about this issue and are willing to march and strike to get a resolution. This would strenghten the governments negotiating position. A general im not happy about increased taxes and spending cuts protest would not forward this specific agenda.

dvpower · 03-02-2013 12:50AM

Furious_George wrote: »

I do agree with you on this point and that is why i still havnt decided if i will be out marching on this protest. If its march full of diverse groups shouting no debt no austerity then you wont find me within a mile of it.

My specific reason for marching would be to show both irish and european leaders that i am unhappy with the current promissory notes contract. I understand the economic logic behind the arguments against just writing them off but i believe there is room for manouver in the specifics . I believe that european leaders need to see that the irish people feel strongly about this issue and are willing to march and strike to get a resolution. This would strenghten the governments negotiating position. A general im not happy about increased taxes and spending cuts protest would not forward this specific agenda.

I'm not against this protest per se; I just would like them to more clearly define what the protest is about.
Some crowds out on the streets might actually help the government in their attempts to negotiate a deal, and I actually think that this is what ICTU may actually be trying to achieve. In a roundabout way, many of the people who show up for the protest, who are habitually opposed to the Government, may slightly strengthen their hand.

03-02-2013 01:25AM

Furious_George wrote: »

I do agree with you on this point and that is why i still havnt decided if i will be out marching on this protest. If its march full of diverse groups shouting no debt no austerity then you wont find me within a mile of it.

My specific reason for marching would be to show both irish and european leaders that i am unhappy with the current promissory notes contract. I understand the economic logic behind the arguments against just writing them off but i believe there is room for manouver in the specifics . I believe that european leaders need to see that the irish people feel strongly about this issue and are willing to march and strike to get a resolution. This would strenghten the governments negotiating position. A general im not happy about increased taxes and spending cuts protest would not forward this specific agenda.

A general protest, with enough critical mass, can make a big change.

Look what happened in Gdansk in the 1980's, or Tunisia and Egypt today and tell me mass demonstration doesn't make a difference.

The Greeks don't even have a case to argue given their basket case economy, but at least by taking to the streets they make the EU sit up and take notice, for example the haircut on debt was given to them.

We on the other hand get treated like a pariah state by the Europeans, but without the benefit of actually acting like a pariah state and telling bank bondholders to f*ck off and take the loss on their bets that capitalism would normally dictate

Ostrom · 03-02-2013 01:34AM

bluewolf wrote: »

Yeah, sitting around giving out is going to magic jobs out of thin air

No

I'm not sure that is the point, more to highlight the sheer hypocrisy of the state subsidizing private sector losses whilst wheeling out their liberal rhetoric. Multiples of the total savings of this current round of austerity will be transferred into private hands over the coming months - events such as this are essential for focusing attention on the need for recovery investment.

dvpower · 03-02-2013 01:38AM

Deleted User wrote: »

A general protest, with enough critical mass, can make a big change.

Not if you can't annunciate what that change is past telling bondholders to fcuk off.

KyussBishop · 03-02-2013 01:46AM

It just becomes a ridiculous echo chamber in these threads after a while:
Person A: "what are the alternatives?"
Person B: "well we could do 'x', 'y' 'z' instead as the alternatives"
Person A (ignoring

: "These protestors don't have any solutions!"

The alternative policies already exist; straight away the EU could relieve part of our debt burden by centralizing the debt, which means we will pay down the debt but at much lower interest rates.
The EU can also issue centralized bonds for funding investment programs which create jobs, without any of that being added to the national debt.

These policies are only the start of what can be done as well, since this doesn't even get into various forms of debt relief, and other far more powerful ways to fund investment.

Someone being personally ignorant of the alternatives, does not magically mean there are not any; the hint is also in the title slogan of the march "jobs not debt", with the above policies fitting that sentiment well.

hatrickpatrick · 03-02-2013 01:52AM

dvpower wrote: »

We'll, yeah. I get what they say the problem is: Debt=Bad, No Jobs=Bad.
I don't need a protest march to know that.

But what do they want?? (please don't just say less debt and more jobs)

Let banking investors pay for their own f*ck ups, not us. Is it really that complicated?

Kichote · 03-02-2013 01:56AM

The idea of a national debt should be phased out altogether. Governments can create money if they need to, no need for banks and bondholders

dvpower · 03-02-2013 02:03AM

KyussBishop wrote: »

It just becomes a ridiculous echo chamber in these threads after a while:
Person A: "what are the alternatives?"
Person B: "well we could do 'x', 'y' 'z' instead as the alternatives"
Person A (ignoring : "These protestors don't have any solutions!"

The alternative policies already exist; straight away the EU could relieve part of our debt burden by centralizing the debt, which means we will pay down the debt but at much lower interest rates.
The EU can also issue centralized bonds for funding investment programs which create jobs, without any of that being added to the national debt.

These policies are only the start of what can be done as well, since this doesn't even get into various forms of debt relief, and other far more powerful ways to fund investment.

Someone being personally ignorant of the alternatives, does not magically mean there are not any; the hint is also in the title slogan of the march "jobs not debt", with the above policies fitting that sentiment well.

Issuing Eurobonds isn't a power that the Irish Government has and however good an idea it may be, it would come with big downsides, namely a more permanent loss of sovereignty.
Centralising debt via the ESM is also something not directly in our power.

But you are right - there are lots of things that could be done - ideas that are currently being explored by the government.
So what's the protest about again?

03-02-2013 02:04AM

dvpower wrote: »

Not if you can't annunciate what that change is past telling bondholders to fcuk off.

I told you already, the €3 billion promissory note.

Even if the protest reduces the burden by €1 billion, it will be worth the hour on a weekend afternoon that it takes to demonstrate.

If it does more than that, and becomes a regular protest, this can build momentum and if the numbers increase who knows maybe there could be billions saved that will actually go to investing in ourselves as opposed to sending most of it overseas via bank debt and the promissory note

promissory note for €8.3 billion on 31 March 2010, bringing the government's investment in Anglo Irish bank to €12.3 billion.[15] Since then the notes have risen in value to cover €30.6 billion of the €34.7 billion cost of Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide Bank (€25.3 billion of the €29.3 billion cost of Anglo and €5.3 billion of INBS’s €5.4 billion cost).[16]

dvpower · 03-02-2013 02:13AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Let banking investors pay for their own f*ck ups, not us. Is it really that complicated?

And what about the state paying for their fcukup of the blanket guarantee?

dvpower · 03-02-2013 02:16AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Even if the protest reduces the burden by €1 billion, it will be worth the hour on a weekend afternoon that it takes to demonstrate.

This is dreamland stuff. How does going on a march reduce debt?

KyussBishop · 03-02-2013 02:37AM

dvpower wrote: »

Issuing Eurobonds isn't a power that the Irish Government has and however good an idea it may be, it would come with big downsides, namely a more permanent loss of sovereignty.
Centralising debt via the ESM is also something not directly in our power.

But you are right - there are lots of things that could be done - ideas that are currently being explored by the government.
So what's the protest about again?

We don't lose any additional sovereignty through Eurobonds, it gives us a less punitive avenue for funding ourselves; we've already near-completely lost sovereignty through losing control over our money supply.

Our government isn't doing nearly enough in seeking out resolution of the crisis, through alternative policies, and protests have to be as much against the EU overall, as they are against our government.

There is no solution to the crisis to come from Ireland alone; not unless things get desperate enough to go down the route of defaulting.

Dyr · 03-02-2013 02:43AM

dvpower wrote: »

This is dreamland stuff. How does going on a march reduce debt?

How does going on a march achieve anything? Modern history course for dribblers required?

dvpower · 03-02-2013 02:49AM

KyussBishop wrote: »

We don't lose any additional sovereignty through Eurobonds, it gives us a less punitive avenue for funding ourselves; we've already near-completely lost sovereignty through losing control over our money supply.

Without going completely off topic - of course it does. Debt issued from the centre must equal more control over fiscal policy from the centre.

Boombastic · 03-02-2013 02:50AM

Will I go to a march to help unions push their agenda?

I will in my hole

KyussBishop · 03-02-2013 03:15AM

dvpower wrote: »

Without going completely off topic - of course it does. Debt issued from the centre must equal more control over fiscal policy from the centre.

The EU has already affected fiscal policy through assisting funding for our previous infrastructure projects, such as expansions of DART infrastructure and such; this provides much the same role (having the power to approve/disapprove projects/spending), except it is funded through centralized bond issuance.

dvpower · 03-02-2013 03:28AM

KyussBishop wrote: »

The EU has already affected fiscal policy through assisting funding for our previous infrastructure projects, such as expansions of DART infrastructure and such; this provides much the same role (having the power to approve/disapprove projects/spending), except it is funded through centralized bond issuance.

Hey, I'm all for the EU funding infrastructure projects in Ireland.
I wonder what German and Scandinavian taxpayers think about the idea. (I can't imagine them wanting to underwrite bonds for the purpose if we're threatening to burn bondholders)

darkhorse · 03-02-2013 03:34AM

Deleted User wrote: »

A general protest, with enough critical mass, can make a big change.

Agreed, also I'll be the there. However, I would like to see a protest on a day other than Saturday, as there would be no politicians in leinster house on a Saturday to disturb, (and we really need to disturb them), and on a day that we would have some dignitaries from other countries, esp. Germany and definitely the president of the ECB, as they think that we are doing great, cause our politicians have'nt been rocking the boat too much in the past few years.

KyussBishop · 03-02-2013 03:46AM

dvpower wrote: »

Hey, I'm all for the EU funding infrastructure projects in Ireland.
I wonder what German and Scandinavian taxpayers think about the idea. (I can't imagine them wanting to underwrite bonds for the purpose if we're threatening to burn bondholders)

What bearing has burning bondholders got on this? If it's an allusion to our potential for defaulting (which is another matter entirely), the funds would not be added to our national debt.

If anything, it greatly reduces our likelihood of defaulting, since the investment funds would be providing jobs, stability and general economic recovery.

darkhorse · 03-02-2013 03:48AM

dvpower wrote: »

ideas that are currently being explored by the government.

Oireachtas members paid €7.5m in expenses

The only ideas currently being explored by the government is how to try and top this.

darkhorse · 03-02-2013 03:53AM

dvpower wrote: »

And what about the state paying for their fcukup of the blanket guarantee?

You hit the nail on the head once again.

the_syco · 03-02-2013 04:01AM

Now now, careful what you wish for. It seems France is on shakey ground, and if they go down, we're f**ked.

Well, those on the dole will be anyhoos, as there won't be any money for them. Not sure what will happen to the jobs that do exist, though.

WakeUp · 03-02-2013 04:28AM

the_syco wrote: »

Now now, careful what you wish for. It seems France is on shakey ground, and if they go down, we're f**ked.

Well, those on the dole will be anyhoos, as there won't be any money for them. Not sure what will happen to the jobs that do exist, though.

Link by any chance?

problemchimp · 03-02-2013 04:39AM

I will protest.
I will tell my kids that at least I fuucking tried

Madam_X · 03-02-2013 05:00AM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I didnt say anything about the shinners.

So what you are basically saying is lets protest on our day off? You want to protest but you want a free day in your diary before doing so?

I know you didn't mention shinners but others did. I wasn't aiming my comment solely at you.

What's wrong with having the day free? Jeez, there'd be complaints about it being on a week-day because it indicates a bunch of dole-heads are gonna be at it.

old_aussie · 03-02-2013 05:11AM

OP,How do you know it's a "large protest", if no one has turned up yet?

Canis Lupus · 03-02-2013 07:19AM

What do we want?

Errr stuff!

When do we want it?

Now!

Feb 9th Protest - will you be joining?

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