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Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

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Comments

  • #1712
    Ceasar the Wheezer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21 ✭Ceasar the Wheezer


    mhge wrote: »
    It's been debunked several times up thread, have a read. Every now and then someone parachutes with this argument.

    Debunked by who? Statisticians? Medical authorities? Government?
    Are you seriously saying that I should believe some anonymous posters view over official records?


  • #1713
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »
    Are you seriously questioning the WHO, Worldbank, UNICEF and UNFPA OFFICIAL statistics?
    This isn't about me or what I think this is about factual reporting and the reports show that the UK has a four times worse record than Ireland.

    No, we're questioning your claims of what those statistics are. Could you please link to all of those?

    NB: the WHO statistics have been debunked due to Ireland not reporting those stats in a manner consistent with other nations and that is due to be rectified next year, so you can leave the WHO 2005 report out..
    Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »
    Debunked by who? Statisticians? Medical authorities? Government?
    Are you seriously saying that I should believe some anonymous posters view over official records?

    No, there were links supplied for you to peruse at your leisure. Please do so before challenging their authenticity.


  • #1714
    Hannibal Smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭Hannibal Smith


    frfintanstack wrote: »

    Most miscarriages have very little pain and can be utterly painless, in fact many women don't even realise they've had one.


    But hey go for it with the melodrama, your description describes a very rare event......dramatically.

    Its not melodrama or dramatics....its what happens. very early pregnancy miscarriages can happen without pain...not later miscarriages which is what the subject of the whole thread is about.


  • #1715
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »
    Are you seriously questioning the WHO, Worldbank, UNICEF and UNFPA OFFICIAL statistics?
    This isn't about me or what I think this is about factual reporting and the reports show that the UK has a four times worse record than Ireland.

    I'm not, people more expert than me and you (unless you are an expert) are.

    http://www.medicalindependent.ie/page.aspx?title=maternal_death_%E2%80%93_into_the_great_unknown
    In January 2009, Ireland joined the Centre for Maternal and Child Enquiries (CMACE) in the UK, an independent charity that for the last 50 years has worked to improve the health of mothers by carrying out confidential inquiries into maternal deaths.
    As a result of joining this initiative, a reliable record of maternal mortality in Ireland will be available for the very first time. The first Irish figures will be included in the organisation's 2013 report.

    The criteria will change from next year on.

    You need to be critical of reports that have such divergence in statistics, they could be using the exact same data but chances are, such a divergence between 2 similar health systems is down to something else, in this case different data sets.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1716
    Flier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭Flier


    Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »
    Are you seriously questioning the WHO, Worldbank, UNICEF and UNFPA OFFICIAL statistics?
    This isn't about me or what I think this is about factual reporting and the reports show that the UK has a four times worse record than Ireland.

    Getting a bit off topic here. In either case Irelands MMR is very, very good on a world scale. Arguing weather it is very very good or really very very good will get us nowhere. Nobody is saying the WHO etc is lying. Our statistics are official, and compiled in good faith according to a set process. They may however be compiled differently to other countries.


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  • #1717
    Hannibal Smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭Hannibal Smith


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    When did I assume she was in mild discomfort? I didn't actually say that at all and you just invented it out of thin air.

    What I actually said was "At this point, it doesn't appear she was in abnormally huge pain." which is a perfectly acceptable description relatively speaking unless you consider the pain of a miscarriage to be equivalent to the the final stages of septicaemia. She initially presented with back pain which wasn't necessarily caused as a result of the miscarriage. Pain in the lower back is often one of the early symptoms of septicaemia.

    What's even more mentally exhausting is realising you have septicaemia and seeing yourself deteriorate so rapidly. Being a dentist, even in the awful state she was in, i'm sure she would have had some idea of what has happening and her prognosis all the way through.

    I didn't even use the word "just" in my post let alone make it out that miscarriage is a little thing :confused:

    So you completely missed my point...whether this woman was suffering from sceptisima or not, she shouldn't have been allowed to remain in the pain she was in. she should have been able to chose given that the baby was dying anyhow.

    Miscarriages are sh*t and to be left for three days like that is cruel.


  • #1718
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Flier wrote: »
    Getting a bit off topic here. In either case Irelands MMR is very, very good on a world scale. Arguing weather it is very very good or really very very good will get us nowhere. Nobody is saying the WHO etc is lying. Our statistics are official, and compiled in good faith according to a set process. They may however be compiled differently to other countries.

    Actually getting to know what the true figure will make a big difference because it means that if in reality our figures are on a par with England then it can't be used as a tactic by the pro life as a reason why abortion doesn't need to be brought in here.


  • #1719
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Flier wrote: »

    Well of course doctors would never instigate treatment for anything unless they were certain that the treatment will have the desired effect. Not. Diagnosis are often made on the balance of probabilities, best guess if you like. It is as much an art as a science. There is not a definitive test for everything. Doctors listen to symptoms, look for signs, and do whatever tests they think are necessary. Then they put it all together and decide what the likely diagnosis is. If they all waited around for the definitive diagnosis before committing to a course of treatment, we would all be dropping like flies. Given the facts we know of this case, the overwhelming expert opinion is that in these situations the appropriate treatment includes removing the contents of the uterus. No one knows for sure what the outcome would have been in this case. But the overwhelming medical opinion is that she didn't receive optimum treatment. And that is a great shame.

    There are very few things in biology that people can be cetain about. Pharmokinetics and other immune response will be different for each person. I would rather a situation where a doctor judges each case on its own merits with the full backing of the law.


  • #1720
    Ceasar the Wheezer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21 ✭Ceasar the Wheezer


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    No, we're questioning your claims of what those statistics are. Could you please link to all of those?

    NB: the WHO statistics have been debunked due to Ireland not reporting those stats in a manner consistent with other nations and that is due to be rectified next year, so you can leave the WHO 2005 report out..



    No, there were links supplied for you to peruse at your leisure. Please do so before challenging their authenticity.

    How about the WHO 2010 report : http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2010/9789241500265_eng.pdf


  • #1721
    Ceasar the Wheezer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21 ✭Ceasar the Wheezer


    Flier wrote: »
    Getting a bit off topic here. In either case Irelands MMR is very, very good on a world scale. Arguing weather it is very very good or really very very good will get us nowhere. Nobody is saying the WHO etc is lying. Our statistics are official, and compiled in good faith according to a set process. They may however be compiled differently to other countries.


    Agreed.


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  • #1722
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    old hippy wrote: »
    Yes, of course. In the meantime I'll just bury my head in the sand, instead. That better?
    So the only two reactions you can get your head around are;
    1. Emotional hysteria
    or
    2. Bury your head in the sand?

    How about...

    3. Get your facts straight and then judge the case

    any takers? No?


  • #1723
    Ceasar the Wheezer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21 ✭Ceasar the Wheezer


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Actually getting to know what the true figure will make a big difference because it means that if in reality our figures are on a par with England then it can't be used as a tactic by the pro life as a reason why abortion doesn't need to be brought in here.


    With due respect the MMR figures have only been quoted to counter the false premise that Ireland is a "backward" country when it comes to maternal healthcare. It means that the pro-death camp can't then use this argument as an excuse to introduce abortion into Ireland.
    The whole basis of pro-life thinking people is to defend those who are least able to defend themselves, whether they be born or unborn. I get very irritated and annoyed at the hypocritical scumbags who call themselves "Socialists" who adopt a fascist view when it comes to matters of life and death.


  • #1724
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    ruthloss wrote: »
    I am livid that a women begged for the chance to live and was allowed to die.

    You must be privy to some facts that the rest of us are unaware of! Otherwise that's some low sensationalist bullsh1t that does the cause no good. You should write for the Daily Mail.


  • #1725
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »
    How about the WHO 2010 report : http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2010/9789241500265_eng.pdf

    Still doesn't count, as per the post you quoted. The stats are not collected in a similar manner to other countries and this is being rectified. Changing the year doesn't matter a jot, unless you have the 2013 statistics to hand.


  • #1726
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,253 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »
    Err... No. A foetus is not a disease and terminating a life - any life - does not improve in any way the lives of others.

    Well, it seems that removing the foetus earlier would probably have improved the survival chances of the mother. It was non-viable anyway. A spontaneous abortion was occurring anyway. I'm sure it would be best practice to help it along.


  • #1727
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »
    With due respect the MMR figures have only been quoted to counter the false premise that Ireland is a "backward" country when it comes to maternal healthcare. It means that the pro-death camp can't then use this argument as an excuse to introduce abortion into Ireland.
    The whole basis of pro-life thinking people is to defend those who are least able to defend themselves, whether they be born or unborn. I get very irritated and annoyed at the hypocritical scumbags who call themselves "Socialists" who adopt a fascist view when it comes to matters of life and death.

    But if the figures are shown to be false then it is a false counter argument. I have no problem with maternal health care in this country and have seen the fine work that staff do in the maternity wards but the simply fact of the matter is that this death, regardless of the cause, has opened up a huge debate in this country about abortion and termination on medical grounds. Should a pregnant woman have to carry a non viable foetus purely to satisfy pro-life campaign's notion of defending those that can't defend themselves? Should that woman have been made to wait until that foetus' heartbeat stopped even though there was no way that it was going to survive?


  • #1728
    isisgodess
    Site Banned Posts: 8 ✭isisgodess


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    So the only two reactions you can get your head around are;
    1. Emotional hysteria
    or
    2. Bury your head in the sand?

    How about...

    3. Get your facts straight and then judge the case

    any takers? No?

    There is too much of this kind of thinking on this thread. It is the MASCULINE MINDSET.

    Why must you let the psychological HATRED of women dictate that a woman cannot choose what to do with her body. If I have cancer can I remove a tumor? Oh thank you.

    A woman feels she is in pain, she listens to HER BODY because she knows how to be close to her body, because she has intuition.

    But because of this HATRED she cannot remove the tumour.

    I weep for the women of Ireland who can be destroyed like this.


  • #1729
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »
    Err... No. A foetus is not a disease and terminating a life - any life - does not improve in any way the lives of others.

    That argument has been shot through after this, I'm afraid. It would have improved Savita Halappanavar's life in the most literal and immediate possible way.


  • #1730
    isisgodess
    Site Banned Posts: 8 ✭isisgodess


    Madam_X wrote: »
    However, it's important we do what we can to make a change - not to fecking make foreigners think more highly of the Irish, but to ensure it doesn't happen again.

    Thank you, of course we must ensure it must never happen again. There is too much HATRED OF WOMEN in the Irish psyche because for too long we let the rapists and peadophiles in the church decide everything.

    It is still in our mindset.

    We must learn to love and cherish and appreciate the beauty of womanhood and not to rape us with the constitution.


  • #1731
    Flier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭Flier


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Actually getting to know what the true figure will make a big difference because it means that if in reality our figures are on a par with England then it can't be used as a tactic by the pro life as a reason why abortion doesn't need to be brought in here.

    I do take your point, but the numbers really are so small that I wonder what the change would have to be to be statistically significant. I mean an increase from 1 in 1million to 2 in 1million (figures for example only) is a 50% increase but really meaningless. Anyone basing their argument on such figures clearly is very desperate!


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  • #1732
    Ceasar the Wheezer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21 ✭Ceasar the Wheezer


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Well, it seems that removing the foetus earlier would probably have improved the survival chances of the mother. It was non-viable anyway. A spontaneous abortion was occurring anyway. I'm sure it would be best practice to help it along.

    "Seems"? What on earth are you basing that assumption on? If a spontaneous abortion was occurring anyway has it not crossed your mind that carrying out direct intervention at that stage might have been detrimental to the mother?

    I don't know but neither does anyone else on this board.

    jill_valentine wrote: »
    That argument has been shot through after this, I'm afraid. It would have improved Savita Halappanavar's life in the most literal and immediate possible way.

    Shot through after what? Where are you getting your facts from to make such a statement as "It would have improved Savita Halappanavar's life in the most literal and immediate possible way"? I replied to a comment about a cancerous growth. Do you equate pregnancy with cancer?


    Just have a look at what Dr Muiris Houston said in the story I quoted earlier.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81779780&postcount=1694


  • #1733
    LeeHoffmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭LeeHoffmann


    There is too much of this kind of thinking on this thread. It is the MASCULINE MINDSET. :eek:
    Why must you let the psychological HATRED of women :eek: dictate that a woman cannot choose what to do with her body. If I have cancer can I remove a tumor? Oh thank you.
    A woman feels she is in pain, she listens to HER BODY because she knows how to be close to her body, because she has intuition :confused:.
    But because of this HATRED she cannot remove the tumour.
    I weep for the women of Ireland who can be destroyed like this.
    eh what now? :confused:
    Your categorization of the rational as inherently masculine and intuition as inherently feminine exposes you as the greatest sexist on this thread IMO. I´ve underlined the particularly mad parts.


  • #1734
    Flier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭Flier


    Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »
    "Seems"? What on earth are you basing that assumption on? If a spontaneous abortion was occurring anyway has it not crossed your mind that carrying out direct intervention at that stage might have been detrimental to the mother?

    I don't know but neither does anyone else on this board.




    Shot through after what? Where are you getting your facts from to make such a statement as "It would have improved Savita Halappanavar's life in the most literal and immediate possible way"? I replied to a comment about a cancerous growth. Do you equate pregnancy with cancer?


    Just have a look at what Dr Muiris Houston said in the story I quoted earlier.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81779780&postcount=1694


    What Dr Houston said in no way supports your argument.


  • #1735
    MistyCheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭MistyCheese


    Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »
    "Seems"? What on earth are you basing that assumption on?

    The "assumption" that had the woman's cervix not been open for three days she would have almost certainly not have contracted the infection that killed her.

    Are you now going to argue the point "almost certainly"? Because that brings us back to my earlier "crazed gunman" theory.


  • #1736
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,463 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    isisgodess wrote: »
    There is too much of this kind of thinking on this thread. It is the MASCULINE MINDSET.

    Why must you let the psychological HATRED of women dictate that a woman cannot choose what to do with her body. If I have cancer can I remove a tumor? Oh thank you.

    A woman feels she is in pain, she listens to HER BODY because she knows how to be close to her body, because she has intuition.

    But because of this HATRED she cannot remove the tumour.

    I weep for the women of Ireland who can be destroyed like this.

    Well if it's in caps it must be true!


  • #1737
    stevenmu
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    Just out of idle curiosity, does anybody on this thread have

    A) All of the facts of this case

    and

    B) The medical knowledge and experience required to assess them correctly

    Anybody?


  • #1738
    ruthloss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 637 ✭✭✭ruthloss


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    You must be privy to some facts that the rest of us are unaware of! Otherwise that's some low sensationalist bullsh1t that does the cause no good. You should write for the Daily Mail.

    I am privy to the account of the story as told by the husband who witnessed the death of his wife., as are you if you care to read it and count the amount of times she asked for a termination. I believe his account of events as they unfolded.

    As to your personal attack on me, it does not intimidate me as you obviously hoped it would.


  • #1739
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,416 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    stevenmu wrote: »
    Just out of idle curiosity, does anybody on this thread have

    A) All of the facts of this case

    and

    B) The medical knowledge and experience required to assess them correctly

    Anybody?

    I've got an opinion and a keyboard.. and that's all that matters!


  • #1740
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    isisgodess wrote: »

    Thank you, of course we must ensure it must never happen again. There is too much HATRED OF WOMEN in the Irish psyche because for too long we let the rapists and peadophiles in the church decide everything.

    It is still in our mindset.

    We must learn to love and cherish and appreciate the beauty of womanhood and not to rape us with the constitution.

    My opposition to medically unnecessary abortion is not based on a hatered of women or a religious belief. It is based on my own belief that life begins within the womb. I believe it is our duty to protect that life when it is threatened with extinction. The question I struggle with is when exactly does a bundle of cells become a conscious mind.


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  • #1741
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    stevenmu wrote: »
    Just out of idle curiosity, does anybody on this thread have

    A) All of the facts of this case

    and

    B) The medical knowledge and experience required to assess them correctly

    Anybody?

    We have the following facts.

    a) A woman spent three days painfully miscarrying a foetus that would not have survived anyway.

    b) She had previously requested an abortion which would have spared her a great measure of that ordeal and likely increased her chances of survival substantially.

    c) She was denied it, for no sound medical reason.

    We don't know the colour of the hospital room or the expression on the doctor's face, but the scenario painted by those three basic elements in themselves is unacceptable. Trying to vague up the conversation by demanding fairly immaterial details lends nothing.


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