Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

suicide_circus · 16-11-2012 01:48PM

old hippy wrote: »

This is an emotive topic. Our hysteria in regards to a simple medical procedure killed this woman. What's not to get upset about?

That's just it. You don't actually know if refusal to carry out an abortion caused her death. That is why two investigations are being carried out, to determine the FACTS.

old hippy · 16-11-2012 01:54PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

That's just it. You don't actually know if refusal to carry out an abortion caused her death. That is why two investigations are being carried out, to determine the FACTS.

Yes, of course. In the meantime I'll just bury my head in the sand, instead. That better?

StudentDad · 16-11-2012 02:14PM

While everyone is getting bogged down in stats, procedures etc. There is a far more fundamental question at issue here. Essentially it boils down to the fundamental right of every European Citizen in this State to decide their own fate. Be that whether to have an abortion, Euthanasia, power of attorney - and have those wishes complied with. I or anyone else may not like an individuals decision, it may run contrary to our beliefs but it is not a decision to be made by us.

The young woman asked for a valid medical procedure and was denied, for no good medical reason.

We had the same nonsense over divorce. The only valid opinion in these matters are those of the parties involved. Not a church or the state.

SD

ruthloss · 16-11-2012 02:14PM

positron wrote: »

+1 to above. I think he's just a puppet, acting under the orders of some seriously powerful lobbyists, like some religious group perhaps.

Another sad day to be Irish. Another sad day. PERIOD.

old hippy wrote: »

Yes, of course. In the meantime I'll just bury my head in the sand, instead. That better?[/QUOTE

Yes old hippy, you finally got the message., shut up, close your eyes, and wait until you are told what to think by the 'righteous' of this country. Good man. :rolleyes:

HellFireClub · 16-11-2012 02:15PM

gozunda wrote: »

The whole point here is what the hell should our religion have anything to do with our healthcare system? Why is a woman's reproductive health even considered a religious matter over which the RCC has dominion? We are allegedly a first world country and yet we have a healthcare system that is being controlled by ignorance and superstition - how do we explain that to our international visitors who may believe that their health and safety will safeguarded?

THIS ^^^ is what irks the absolute SHÍT out of me, about being Irish and living in this country. A woman tragically dies, nobody knows the facts yet, we do know that if a termination would have saved this poor woman's life, it was perfectly permissible under the law and DOES HAPPEN REGULARLY in this country at the present time.

But let's ignore those FACTS, let's shíte on about the Catholic Church and us being a religiously suppressed nation, lets shíte on and embarrass ourselves further by claiming that we are a country where medical decisions get made by bishops & cardinals.

Nothing could be further from the truth, this is one of the safest countries on earth in which to give birth, far safer than India I might add, which is certainly no shining light of best practice when it comes to the provision of healthcare, with half its citizenry living in 3rd world poverty.

When you scratch even a tiny bit below the surface with these supposedly outraged people on the internet claiming that we are a backward 3rd world provider of healthcare and its a disgrace and we need new legislation and its an outrage, you always find the exact same political position, someone who believes in and is advocating for, abortion on demand in Ireland.

Funny how we have had 1,500 people who tragically died under the hopelessness of suicide within the last 3 years, where were these protestors and vigil holders then? How many children have died in HSE care in the last 10 years? Where were these outraged citizens then? Say what you want about the Catholic Church, at least they try to give some kind of a shít about this issue and provide local voluntary services to people who may be depressed.

This woman died in the most tragic of circumstances in the prime of her life, but PLEASE stop trying to hijack her regrettable departure from this earth, for abortion on demand in this country and please wait until the facts emerge before stupidly asking people to change our laws.

mikom · 16-11-2012 02:18PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

Funny how we have had 1,500 people who tragically died under the hopelessness of suicide, where were these protestors and vigil holders then?

At least they had the choice.
Flip back a few years and suicide was illegal as well.
More religion driving the law bollox
Ah, but they were better times............

billybudd · 16-11-2012 02:24PM

This thread has served its purpose for me now, will only say i hope this ladies family get the closure and answers they deserve and also legislation is made so there is never a chance of this happening again, Ireland must be free from suffering caused by lax laws and fear.

gozunda · 16-11-2012 02:25PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

THIS ^^^ is what irks the absolute SHÍT out of me, about being Irish and living in this country. A woman tragically dies, nobody knows the facts yet, we do know that if a termination would have saved this poor woman's life, it was perfectly permissible under the law and DOES HAPPEN REGULARLY in this country at the present time.

But let's ignore those FACTS, let's shíte on about the Catholic Church and us being a religiously suppressed nation, lets shíte on and embarrass ourselves further by claiming that we are a country where medical decisions get made by bishops & cardinals.

Nothing could be further from the truth, this is one of the safest countries on earth in which to give birth, far safer than India I might add, which is certainly no shining light of best practice when it comes to the provision of healthcare, with half its citizenry living in 3rd world poverty.

When you scratch even a tiny bit below the surface with these supposedly outraged people on the internet claiming that we are a backward 3rd world provider of healthcare and its a disgrace and we need new legislation and its an outrage, you always find the exact same political position, someone who believes in and is advocating for, abortion on demand in Ireland.

Funny how we have had 1,500 people who tragically died under the hopelessness of suicide within the last 3 years, where were these protestors and vigil holders then? How many children have died in HSE care in the last 10 years? Where were these outraged citizens then? Say what you want about the Catholic Church, at least they try to give some kind of a shít about this issue and provide local voluntary services to people who may be depressed.

This woman died in the most tragic of circumstances in the prime of her life, but PLEASE stop trying to hijack her regrettable departure from this earth, for abortion on demand in this country and please wait until the facts emerge before stupidly asking people to change our laws.

thanks for your rant

No one mentioned abortion on demand except you

The RCC are clearly implicated in the mess we have with regard to woman's reproductive health and what happened in this case.

Our laws needed changing even before this barbaric incident occurred but sadly it has taken something like this to give the impetuous to do so

Noreen1 · 16-11-2012 02:28PM

Flier wrote: »

Noreen1 wrote: »

I
The question is, was Savita already suffering from septicaemia when she requested the termination?
If so, then the termination would have made no difference to the tragic outcome.

Sepsis is survivable. But only with treatment. And treatment includes removing the source of infection. So I think it's reasonable to say the termination may have made every difference to the outcome. I'm not saying she definitely would have survived, but once there were any signs or symptoms of infection, a termination should have been part of the treatment. And given that the foetus was not viable, it should be a no brainer.

I'm aware that sepsis is survivable, with treatment.

I'm not, however, certain that the child was the source of the infection.
It's equally plausible that the uterus itself was the source of the infection, or the genito-urinary tract.

Hence, it is not at all certain that a termination would have had any effect on the outcome.
Unless you're party to some information that I've not heard? I will admit, I've been very busy for the last few days, so I may have missed something.

ruthloss · 16-11-2012 02:34PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

THIS ^^^ is what irks the absolute SHÍT out of me, about being Irish and living in this country. A woman tragically dies, nobody knows the facts yet, we do know that if a termination would have saved this poor woman's life, it was perfectly permissible under the law and DOES HAPPEN REGULARLY in this country at the present time.

But let's ignore those FACTS, let's shíte on about the Catholic Church and us being a religiously suppressed nation, lets shíte on and embarrass ourselves further by claiming that we are a country where medical decisions get made by bishops & cardinals.

Nothing could be further from the truth, this is one of the safest countries on earth in which to give birth, far safer than India I might add, which is certainly no shining light of best practice when it comes to the provision of healthcare, with half its citizenry living in 3rd world poverty.

When you scratch even a tiny bit below the surface with these supposedly outraged people on the internet claiming that we are a backward 3rd world provider of healthcare and its a disgrace and we need new legislation and its an outrage, you always find the exact same political position, someone who believes in and is advocating for, abortion on demand in Ireland.

Funny how we have had 1,500 people who tragically died under the hopelessness of suicide within the last 3 years, where were these protestors and vigil holders then? How many children have died in HSE care in the last 10 years? Where were these outraged citizens then? Say what you want about the Catholic Church, at least they try to give some kind of a shít about this issue and provide local voluntary services to people who may be depressed.

This woman died in the most tragic of circumstances in the prime of her life, but PLEASE stop trying to hijack her regrettable departure from this earth, for abortion on demand in this country and please wait until the facts emerge before stupidly asking people to change our laws.

You are irked., well I'm so sorry for you. I am livid that a women begged for the chance to live and was allowed to die. I refuse to stay silent while the powers that be use the old tactic of 'enquiries' and 'reports' to wait out the crisis and hope that time will allow them to once more return their heads to the sand.

By the way, I will be one of "these people" at the vigil in Dublin tomorrow.
My apologies if this 'irks' you even more.

Pherekydes · 16-11-2012 02:43PM

Noreen1 wrote: »

Hence, it is not at all certain that a termination would have had any effect on the outcome.

Many people keep coming up with this argument. Why? What's the purpose of it?

If you presented with a cancerous lump somewhere and a doctor said to you that there's no guarantee you'd survive after its removal, would you press for its removal anyway?

Surely removing the foetus improves the mother's survival chances?

The Waltzing Consumer · 16-11-2012 02:45PM

ruthloss wrote: »

You are irked., well I'm so sorry for you. I am livid that a women begged for the chance to live and was allowed to die. I refuse to stay silent while the powers that be use the old tactic of 'enquiries' and 'reports' to wait out the crisis and hope that time will allow them to once more return their heads to the sand.

By the way, I will be one of "these people" at the vigil in Dublin tomorrow.
My apologies if this 'irks' you even more.

Its pretty saddening to see this attitude. Being completely pro-choice and certainly not wishing to see any religious interference in health issues, I would have certainly felt that there would have been a restriction on pre-judging this horrible event until all facts are known.

It certainly shows that no matter where you sit on certain issues, every side has it's share of McCarthy-esque members, willing to hysterically and without any foundation, judge & condemn.

Ceasar the Wheezer · 16-11-2012 03:09PM

Death as a result of infection during miscarriage rare

DR MUIRIS HOUSTON

Wed, Nov 14, 2012

Background: A death as a result of an infection during a miscarriage is a rare event in the developed world. Referred to as a septic abortion or miscarriage, most cases are due to infection with bacteria such as E.coli or streptococci.

In a more severe form that spreads to the wall of the uterus, the patient will usually have a fever and a raised pulse.

The initial management of a suspected septic abortion involves taking a swab from the vagina and the neck of the womb. If the woman’s temperature goes above 38.4 degrees Celsius then blood is taken and sent to the laboratory to see if the bugs have spread to the bloodstream.

A combination of antibiotics is started even before the results of these tests are available. However, it is possible that despite the treatment the patient will go into medical shock, their blood pressure drops and a serious complication called disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC) may ensue.

In this situation it is normal practice to wait until the patient has stabilised before surgically removing the contents of the uterus.

On rare occasions, a hysterectomy may be needed if the infection remains uncontrolled.

A miscarriage is defined as loss of pregnancy in first 24 weeks of gestation.

There are different types of miscarriage including:

* a threatened miscarriage with mild symptoms of bleeding and usually little or no pain. The neck of the womb remains closed;

* an incomplete miscarriage occurs if either the conception sac or the placenta remains in the womb;

* an inevitable miscarriage occurs with heavy bleeding, and the neck of the womb is now open. If the bleeding is severe the mother may slip into medical shock.

In an inevitable miscarriage, even though a foetal heart beat is present, the pregnancy cannot continue to term.

With the neck of the womb already open, the woman’s body prepares to naturally evacuate her womb.

However, with the neck of the womb open, there is an opportunity for bugs such as E.coli to travel from the vagina into the womb before multiplying and infecting the inside wall of the uterus.

Infection can then spread to the woman’s bloodstream, leading to shock and the onset of DIC, which occurs when the normal functioning of blood cells is progressively impaired, leading to multi-organ failure.

© 2012 The Irish Times

I suppose the lemmings who will be campaigning outside the Irish Embassy in London this evening will exercise their "Right to Choose" not to make themselves aware of the likely facts of this case preferring instead to vilify the hospital and its staff without knowing any of the facts. Brave people.

Ceasar the Wheezer · 16-11-2012 03:12PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Many people keep coming up with this argument. Why? What's the purpose of it?

If you presented with a cancerous lump somewhere and a doctor said to you that there's no guarantee you'd survive after its removal, would you press for its removal anyway?

Surely removing the foetus improves the mother's survival chances?

Err... No. A foetus is not a disease and terminating a life - any life - does not improve in any way the lives of others.

K-9 · 16-11-2012 03:13PM

Noreen1 wrote: »

I'm aware that sepsis is survivable, with treatment.

I'm not, however, certain that the child was the source of the infection.
It's equally plausible that the uterus itself was the source of the infection, or the genito-urinary tract.

Hence, it is not at all certain that a termination would have had any effect on the outcome.
Unless you're party to some information that I've not heard? I will admit, I've been very busy for the last few days, so I may have missed something.

Once the consultant knew she was going to miscarry, I don't see any point in refusing to abort the baby or having to wait until the heart stopped. Yes, we don't yet know if it played a part in her death but it seems it was a pointless decision to make.

I can only assume the consultant acted properly and with the law in mind which leads me to believe that something is wrong with the law when cases like this occur.

Mervyn Crawford · 16-11-2012 03:24PM

The issue is religion and those who promote it's power
The issue is religion. And the demand for a secular society.

The point about Savita Halappanavar's husband's claim that they were not Catholic (and not Irish) is that they should be treated according to enlightened norms of medical practice, not according to reactionary laws based on religious beliefs.

The issue for Irish people is the ejection of religious control and influence from all aspects of civil society. Religion must become a private matter, the individual decides privately whether or not they have religious beliefs; but one's religious beliefs, if one has them, can in no way be imposed on others - (including children).

Religious belief is a matter of faith. It cannot by it's very features have any scientific verification. It is reactionary in the extreme to force such an 'ethos' on others.

The absolute necessity to expel religion from all civil society is a political task. That is why I raised the issue of Sinn Fein's response (see earlier post).

In one way or another, every political tendency in official Ireland supports the status quo; even despite some loud noises apparently to the contrary.

Ceasar the Wheezer · 16-11-2012 03:26PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

THIS ^^^ is what irks the absolute SHÍT out of me, about being Irish and living in this country. A woman tragically dies, nobody knows the facts yet, we do know that if a termination would have saved this poor woman's life, it was perfectly permissible under the law and DOES HAPPEN REGULARLY in this country at the present time.

But let's ignore those FACTS, let's shíte on about the Catholic Church and us being a religiously suppressed nation, lets shíte on and embarrass ourselves further by claiming that we are a country where medical decisions get made by bishops & cardinals.

Nothing could be further from the truth, this is one of the safest countries on earth in which to give birth, far safer than India I might add, which is certainly no shining light of best practice when it comes to the provision of healthcare, with half its citizenry living in 3rd world poverty.

When you scratch even a tiny bit below the surface with these supposedly outraged people on the internet claiming that we are a backward 3rd world provider of healthcare and its a disgrace and we need new legislation and its an outrage, you always find the exact same political position, someone who believes in and is advocating for, abortion on demand in Ireland.

Funny how we have had 1,500 people who tragically died under the hopelessness of suicide within the last 3 years, where were these protestors and vigil holders then? How many children have died in HSE care in the last 10 years? Where were these outraged citizens then? Say what you want about the Catholic Church, at least they try to give some kind of a shít about this issue and provide local voluntary services to people who may be depressed.

This woman died in the most tragic of circumstances in the prime of her life, but PLEASE stop trying to hijack her regrettable departure from this earth, for abortion on demand in this country and please wait until the facts emerge before stupidly asking people to change our laws.

Some good points you make there. Ireland is FOUR times safer for expectant mothers than the UK. The MMR (Maternal mortality Rate for Ireland is 3 and for the UK is 12 - source WHO, UNFPA, UNICEF 2010). Now with all the billions of pounds that the UK has to throw at their NHS you would expect that their MMR would be the best in the world, certainly up there in the top five and far better than Ireland. It isn't. I think the reason for this is quite obvious, the number of women who die from abortion means that their figures are far higher than Ireland, this would explain too why the USA has a figure of 24.
As maternity care in hospitals in the UK is seen as being very sophisticated and receives significant investment what other reason could there be?

ruthloss · 16-11-2012 03:26PM

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Its pretty saddening to see this attitude. Being completely pro-choice and certainly not wishing to see any religious interference in health issues, I would have certainly felt that there would have been a restriction on pre-judging this horrible event until all facts are known.

It certainly shows that no matter where you sit on certain issues, every side has it's share of McCarthy-esque members, willing to hysterically and without any foundation, judge & condemn.

Strange that you should advocate a restriction on pre-judgements, yet you see fit to judge me. You don't know me and I will thank you to keep your very much mistaken impressions of me out of this debate.

strandroad · 16-11-2012 03:32PM

Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »

Some good points you make there. Ireland is FOUR times safer for expectant mothers than the UK. The MMR (Maternal mortality Rate for Ireland is 3 and for the UK is 12 - source WHO, UNFPA, UNICEF 2010). Now with all the billions of pounds that the UK has to throw at their NHS you would expect that their MMR would be the best in the world, certainly up there in the top five and far better than Ireland. It isn't. I think the reason for this is quite obvious, the number of women who die from abortion means that their figures are far higher than Ireland, this would explain too why the USA has a figure of 24.
As maternity care in hospitals in the UK is seen as being very sophisticated and receives significant investment what other reason could there be?

The stats are counted differently, as has been pointed out several times already. As simple as that.

gozunda · 16-11-2012 03:33PM

Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »

Some good points you make there. Ireland is FOUR times safer for expectant mothers than the UK. The MMR (Maternal mortality Rate for Ireland is 3 and for the UK is 12 - source WHO, UNFPA, UNICEF 2010). Now with all the billions of pounds that the UK has to throw at their NHS you would expect that their MMR would be the best in the world, certainly up there in the top five and far better than Ireland. It isn't. I think the reason for this is quite obvious, the number of women who die from abortion means that their figures are far higher than Ireland, this would explain too why the USA has a figure of 24.
As maternity care in hospitals in the UK is seen as being very sophisticated and receives significant investment what other reason could there be?

Not that old chestnut again - Ireland does not even measure its MMR in the same way as other countries. The figures are not even comparable with the UK. Statististics gathered by the way by largely catholic owned hospitals. We export our need for terminations / abortions and dont have the balls to actually face up the fact that a womans repoductive health is a medical and not a religous matter. The reason that the UK has the MMR rate it does is simple - it does not misrepresnt the facts unlike this medievel backwater where there is an idea that "sure arnt we the best in the world at everything"

We are not - the country is an huge anachronism - time we got out of the dark ages imo

Ceasar the Wheezer · 16-11-2012 03:38PM

Mervyn Crawford wrote: »

The issue is religion and those who promote it's power
The issue is religion. And the demand for a secular society.

The point about Savita Halappanavar's husband's claim that they were not Catholic (and not Irish) is that they should be treated according to enlightened norms of medical practice, not according to reactionary laws based on religious beliefs.

Indeed, do you have any evidence to the contrary?

The issue for Irish people is the ejection of religious control and influence from all aspects of civil society. Religion must become a private matter, the individual decides privately whether or not they have religious beliefs; but one's religious beliefs, if one has them, can in no way be imposed on others - (including children).

Yes, you keep your views to yourself and I'm sure others will keep theirs to themselves too. After all your views on Ireland and religion are private to you and should in no way be imposed on others. My son thinks that his school shouldn't be imposing mathematics or physics on him either except that if he didn't learn about religion, maths and physics he would be truly ignorant. BTW how much do you know about any of those subjects?

Religious belief is a matter of faith. It cannot by it's very features have any scientific verification. It is reactionary in the extreme to force such an 'ethos' on others.

The absolute necessity to expel religion from all civil society is a political task. That is why I raised the issue of Sinn Fein's response (see earlier post).

In one way or another, every political tendency in official Ireland supports the status quo; even despite some loud noises apparently to the contrary.

For God's sake wind your neck in. Go and listen to yourself.

kunst nugget · 16-11-2012 03:48PM

Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »

Some good points you make there. Ireland is FOUR times safer for expectant mothers than the UK. The MMR (Maternal mortality Rate for Ireland is 3 and for the UK is 12 - source WHO, UNFPA, UNICEF 2010). Now with all the billions of pounds that the UK has to throw at their NHS you would expect that their MMR would be the best in the world, certainly up there in the top five and far better than Ireland. It isn't. I think the reason for this is quite obvious, the number of women who die from abortion means that their figures are far higher than Ireland, this would explain too why the USA has a figure of 24.
As maternity care in hospitals in the UK is seen as being very sophisticated and receives significant investment what other reason could there be?

There's nothing obvious about it. What about a shortage of midwives?

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/doubling-of-maternal-death-rate-blamed-on-shortage-of-midwives-7689172.html

Or an increase in aging mothers and complex cases?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9233608/Deaths-in-childbirth-rise-amid-struggle-with-complex-cases.html

Ceasar the Wheezer · 16-11-2012 03:50PM

mhge wrote: »

The stats are counted differently, as has been pointed out several times already. As simple as that.

No they are not. The figures are produced by the WHO, Worldbank, UNICEF and UNFPA and intended for nations to make comparisons. They are all calculated according to a set formula and comparisons between similarly developed countries are accounted for within the figures.

Just ask yourself this question, if no comparison could be made between countries then why produce any figures at all?

Looks like you have been mis-informed again.

strandroad · 16-11-2012 03:56PM

Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »

No they are not. The figures are produced by the WHO, Worldbank, UNICEF and UNFPA and intended for nations to make comparisons. They are all calculated according to a set formula and comparisons between similarly developed countries are accounted for within the figures.

Just ask yourself this question, if no comparison could be made between countries then why produce any figures at all?

Looks like you have been mis-informed again.

It's been debunked several times up thread, have a read. Every now and then someone parachutes with this argument.

kunst nugget · 16-11-2012 03:58PM

Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »

No they are not. The figures are produced by the WHO, Worldbank, UNICEF and UNFPA and intended for nations to make comparisons. They are all calculated according to a set formula and comparisons between similarly developed countries are accounted for within the figures.

Just ask yourself this question, if no comparison could be made between countries then why produce any figures at all?

Looks like you have been mis-informed again.

And yet you jump to conclusion that it must be related to abortion deaths without doing any research of your own into what might actually be causing the fatalities. It seems a tad absurd to be calling some one else mis-informed.

K-9 · 16-11-2012 04:01PM

Ceasar the Wheezer wrote: »

No they are not. The figures are produced by the WHO, Worldbank, UNICEF and UNFPA and intended for nations to make comparisons. They are all calculated according to a set formula and comparisons between similarly developed countries are accounted for within the figures.

Just ask yourself this question, if no comparison could be made between countries then why produce any figures at all?

Looks like you have been mis-informed again.

It was posted earlier that Ireland is under pressure to change the criteria used so you need to inform yourself again. Seriously, you think the UK would have 4 times the rate?

Ceasar the Wheezer · 16-11-2012 04:08PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

There's nothing obvious about it. What about a shortage of midwives?

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/doubling-of-maternal-death-rate-blamed-on-shortage-of-midwives-7689172.html

Or an increase in aging mothers and complex cases?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9233608/Deaths-in-childbirth-rise-amid-struggle-with-complex-cases.html

Ah yes of course! Two issues that don't affect Ireland at all.
Here's a tip, have a look at what the INMO are saying about mid-wife shortages in Ireland then have a look at the statistics office for older mother's, you may be surprised by the similarities.

Flier · 16-11-2012 04:09PM

Noreen1 wrote: »

I'm aware that sepsis is survivable, with treatment.

I'm not, however, certain that the child was the source of the infection.
It's equally plausible that the uterus itself was the source of the infection, or the genito-urinary tract.

Hence, it is not at all certain that a termination would have had any effect on the outcome.
Unless you're party to some information that I've not heard? I will admit, I've been very busy for the last few days, so I may have missed something.

Well of course doctors would never instigate treatment for anything unless they were certain that the treatment will have the desired effect. Not. Diagnosis are often made on the balance of probabilities, best guess if you like. It is as much an art as a science. There is not a definitive test for everything. Doctors listen to symptoms, look for signs, and do whatever tests they think are necessary. Then they put it all together and decide what the likely diagnosis is. If they all waited around for the definitive diagnosis before committing to a course of treatment, we would all be dropping like flies. Given the facts we know of this case, the overwhelming expert opinion is that in these situations the appropriate treatment includes removing the contents of the uterus. No one knows for sure what the outcome would have been in this case. But the overwhelming medical opinion is that she didn't receive optimum treatment. And that is a great shame.

Ceasar the Wheezer · 16-11-2012 04:10PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

And yet you jump to conclusion that it must be related to abortion deaths without doing any research of your own into what might actually be causing the fatalities. It seems a tad absurd to be calling some one else mis-informed.

Not a conclusion at all. I made it quite clear in my posting that it was my thoughts only.

Ceasar the Wheezer · 16-11-2012 04:13PM

K-9 wrote: »

It was posted earlier that Ireland is under pressure to change the criteria used so you need to inform yourself again. Seriously, you think the UK would have 4 times the rate?

Are you seriously questioning the WHO, Worldbank, UNICEF and UNFPA OFFICIAL statistics?
This isn't about me or what I think this is about factual reporting and the reports show that the UK has a four times worse record than Ireland.

Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

Comments