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Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

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Comments

  • #1052
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,733 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    hiram wrote: »
    It's being reported everywhere...just google it.
    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741

    Yes, I know that, no need for me to Google it. and its a complete repetition of the Irish Times article, word for word, which is my point. Nobody knows the full story here.


  • #1053
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    JackPerry wrote: »
    "Apparently the women was told "this is a Catholic country, we don't have abortion"
    I have not read all the comments on this issue but has anyone given consideration that these words may have been stated by a Non Catholic ,non Irish doctor or nurse who were actually criticising the situation as it stands and felt powerless to do anything. Equally the words could could have been stated by a Irish person who is critical of the present policies.

    Yes, many. Even scientology was mooted.

    When Savita's husband was speking on BBC news earlier he said that they were told "This is a Catholic country, it's the law" which sounds to me more like the consultant felt that his/her hands were tied rather than s/he wasenforcing their own personal morality on the couple.


  • #1054
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Rodin wrote: »
    57 women have died while pregnant from sepsis in the UK between the years 2000-2008.

    All those waving their placards and shouting aloud that she'd have been grand had she had a surgical evacuation really need to get their facts straight.

    The sad truth is that things go wrong. Was someone negligent? A report will tell us in time. But there is no guarantee that a woman will make it through pregnancy with all the care in the world. Thankfully that case is much rarer in Ireland than in most other countries including those with much less scruples regarding abortion.

    And i'm sure if any of those women wanted to terminate, their decision was granted.

    Not here though.

    Throw some more stats this way...... You know what they say about stats..


  • #1055
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    JackPerry wrote: »
    "Apparently the women was told "this is a Catholic country, we don't have abortion"
    I have not read all the comments on this issue but has anyone given consideration that these words may have been stated by a Non Catholic ,non Irish doctor or nurse who were actually criticising the situation as it stands and felt powerless to do anything. Equally the words could could have been stated by a Irish person who is critical of the present policies.


    We wont know until a report has been published but at least now people are debating it and asking questions, the only thing good to come out of this tragedy.


  • #1056
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    JackPerry wrote: »
    Equally the words could could have been stated by a Irish person who is critical of the present policies.

    Apparently they said "unfortunately".
    He said she continued to experience pain and asked a consultant if she could be induced.

    "They said unfortunately she can't because it's a Catholic country," Mr Halappanavar said.

    "Savita said to her she is not Catholic, she is Hindu, and why impose the law on her.

    "But she said 'I'm sorry, unfortunately it's a Catholic country' and it's the law that they can't abort when the foetus is live."

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741


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  • #1057
    mac.in
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 594 ✭✭✭mac.in


    K-9 wrote: »
    Legally it required attention which she got, just not abortion. That's the legality, not my opinion.

    There was no substantial threat to her life initially so denying her and his wishes was fine. Some posters here seem ok with that as there is nothing wrong with our current laws whatsoever apparently. The current law nor indeed the X case addresses that scenario, IMO.

    Dear brother, the lady continued to have agonizing pain for 2 and 1/2 days. On the second day she developed septicemia (fever, chills, collapse) which should have definitely been dealt with termination of pregnancy as the source of septicemia was most probably (it's infact high probability as there was no other source of septicemia in her case) from miscarried contents (E Coli being the cause of septicemia; E Coli is present in genito-urinary tract). Instead they gave antibiotics waited till next morning till septicemia could do all the worst. They gave a symptomatic treatment rather than a treatment of the cause. So, my point here is there hands were tied in the name of law.


  • #1058
    saspeir
    Site Banned Posts: 109 ✭✭saspeir


    JackPerry wrote: »
    "Apparently the women was told "this is a Catholic country, we don't have abortion"
    I have not read all the comments on this issue but has anyone given consideration that these words may have been stated by a Non Catholic ,non Irish doctor or nurse who were actually criticising the situation as it stands and felt powerless to do anything. Equally the words could could have been stated by a Irish person who is critical of the present policies.
    Then it needs to be asked what advice the medics gave the patient and husband regards legality of treatments should the situation worsen. It might be the 1 in 100,000 but it should be covered just in case.

    Did they advise her to look at legal options in case? Even if religion didn't play a role here then how hospitals advise patients needs to be reviewed.


  • #1059
    starlit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,349 ✭✭✭✭starlit


    If they at least try to legislate the 'x case' what ever that means but I do know of the 'x case' just not sure of what they need to legislate, suppose they just have to place it in a position that doctors, patients and the law know where they stand.

    The government/law should pass what ever legalisation that be good and proper that on medical grounds can perform a termination with the consent of the parents if it meant it save the mother in the process.

    Well by law depends on the medical circumstances it can and cannot be performed which be illegal so due to legals reasons he couldn't and he could have due to medical grounds under certain conditions so there is a rule that doctors are unsure under circumstances can happen other circumstances if they knew she was at risk they would have performed it unless maybe his hands were tied due to the catholic/law. So unless they pass a law that makes it clear then it might make doctor's decisions a bit more clear.


  • #1060
    nervous_twitch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 850 ✭✭✭nervous_twitch


    Rodin wrote: »
    57 women have died while pregnant from sepsis in the UK between the years 2000-2008.

    All those waving their placards and shouting aloud that she'd have been grand had she had a surgical evacuation really need to get their facts straight.

    The sad truth is that things go wrong. Was someone negligent? A report will tell us in time. But there is no guarantee that a woman will make it through pregnancy with all the care in the world. Thankfully that case is much rarer in Ireland than in most other countries including those with much less scruples regarding abortion.

    Irrespective of this particular case though, whatever medical issues arose with Savita, has it not taught us that we need clear legislation on what to do in this kind of situation? Even if the medical investigation reveals that sepsis was unavoidable, don't we need - as a nation - to absolutely ensure that medical authorities know exactly what they're legally allowed to do in such a scenario?


  • #1061
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    jam_mac_jam wrote: »
    Yes, I know that, no need for me to Google it. and its a complete repetition of the Irish Times article, word for word, which is my point. Nobody knows the full story here.

    Praveen spoke to the Irish Times and to the BBC separately, as well as to other journalists. They are not word for word the same.

    Here are the links so that you can comapre:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741

    Is it really so surprising that his story remains the same?


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  • #1062
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    Where was the demand for
    - a plastic bag levy?
    - a smoking ban?
    - early closure of offlicenses?
    - the banning of headshops?

    And yet they were able to do all this without any demands. Why not abortion? Are we supposed to go into the Dail, hold their hands and do their work?

    I was in favour of all those things actually.
    JackPerry wrote: »
    "Apparently the women was told "this is a Catholic country, we don't have abortion"
    I have not read all the comments on this issue but has anyone given consideration that these words may have been stated by a Non Catholic ,non Irish doctor or nurse who were actually criticising the situation as it stands and felt powerless to do anything. Equally the words could could have been stated by a Irish person who is critical of the present policies.

    Very few people seem to have considered it. I actually think it was very possible the doctor was not irish and not catholic going by my previous experience in hospital. i also think he was right in saying that abortion is not availble because it is a Catholic country. The catholic ethos in the country is the very reason abortion is not available.


  • #1063
    Rodin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    NoDrama wrote: »
    And i'm sure if any of those women wanted to terminate, their decision was granted.

    Not here though.

    Throw some more stats this way...... You know what they say about stats..

    Many may have had a termination. The fact is they died anyway.

    The line being put out here is that termination would have saved this woman. There is no evidence to support that.


  • #1064
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    MagicSean wrote: »
    I was in favour of all those things actually.



    Very few people seem to have considered it. I actually think it was very possible the doctor was not irish and not catholic going by my previous experience in hospital. i also think he was right in saying that abortion is not availble because it is a Catholic country. The catholic ethos in the country is the very reason abortion is not available.

    Is it not the fact that its because a new referendum has not been made available for the people to decide seeing as alot has happended in the last few decades with the CC losing alot of faith?


  • #1065
    franktheplank
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭franktheplank


    dr.bollocko wrote: »
    According to the widower they chose to terminate the nonviable foetus to protect the dwindling health of the mother. That choice was taken away from them.

    Yes but they clearly didn't choose for her to become ill in the first place so I think it's perverse for her tragic death to become something of a rallying point for the 'pro-choice' movement.

    If she had wanted an abortion because she was raped would that be 'pro-choice'?

    You can't deny people aren't jumping on the bandwagon here, from what i caught on the news there was some kind of flash protest outside Leinster House. Where were these massive protests when other people died in the care of the HSE?

    How many children died in HSE care in the last few years. I think it's somewhere around the 200 mark and they don't even know for sure. We're these same people outside protesting when this became news. not a chance. But when there's an opportunity to push a certain agenda we have outrage and public grief. Suspicious?


  • #1066
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    billybudd wrote: »
    Is it not the fact that its because a new referendum has not been made available for the people to decide seeing as alot has happended in the last few decades with the CC losing alot of faith?

    I should have been clearer. I meant available to women in the situation Savita was in (i.e. a right to an abortion under the constitution but unable to obtain one because of religious led campaigning against legislation for two decades)


  • #1067
    Rodin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    nervous_twitch wrote: »
    Irrespective of this particular case though, whatever medical issues arose with Savita, has it not taught us that we need clear legislation on what to do in this kind of situation? Even if the medical investigation reveals that sepsis was unavoidable, don't we need - as a nation - to absolutely ensure that medical authorities know exactly what they're legally allowed to do in such a scenario?

    It is simply impossible to legislate for every medical possibility.

    Terminations are already carried out in this country if the mother's life is deemed to be at threat. Perhaps the imminent threat to this woman's life was not recognised. That may be a clinical error and nothing to do with legislation or lack of.

    Just what legislation exactly do people want?


  • #1068
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    MagicSean wrote: »
    I should have been clearer. I meant available to women in the situation Savita was in (i.e. a right to an abortion under the constitution but unable to obtain one because of religious led campaigning against legislation for two decades)


    Or political cowardice.


  • #1069
    Rodin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    I think it unfair to label all anti-abortionists as raging Catholics.


  • #1070
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    franktheplank wrote: »
    Yes but they clearly didn't choose for her to become ill in the first place so I think it's perverse for her tragic death to become something of a rallying point for the 'pro-choice' movement.

    If she had wanted an abortion because she was raped would that be 'pro-choice'?

    You can't deny people aren't jumping on the bandwagon here, from what i caught on the news there was some kind of flash protest outside Leinster House. Where were these massive protests when other people died in the care of the HSE?

    How many children died in HSE care in the last few years. I think it's somewhere around the 200 mark and they don't even know for sure. We're these same people outside protesting when this became news. not a chance. But when there's an opportunity to push a certain agenda we have outrage and public grief. Suspicious?

    Good points, i think abortion and these kind of cases are more emotive and more personal because alot of people maybe had thought of it or were faced with it at one time or another for various reason, an example would be a college student who although not pregnant but who missed a period thinking they were pregnant and panicking and having these thoughts. Dont know if that made sense.


  • #1071
    nervous_twitch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 850 ✭✭✭nervous_twitch


    Rodin wrote: »
    It is simply impossible to legislate for every medical possibility.

    Terminations are already carried out in this country if the mother's life is deemed to be at threat. Perhaps the imminent threat to this woman's life was not recognised. That may be a clinical error and nothing to do with legislation or lack of.

    Just what legislation exactly do people want?

    I don't want to speculate or disrespect those close to her in any way, but surely a woman collapsing in pain - a woman who eventually died - should have been recommended a termination much earlier? I know we can't legislate for the exactitudes, but any medical practitioner should know where the line needs to be drawn, and should be able to draw that line themselves.


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  • #1072
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    franktheplank wrote: »

    Yes but they clearly didn't choose for her to become ill in the first place so I think it's perverse for her tragic death to become something of a rallying point for the 'pro-choice'

    Most abortions are caused by some sort of difficult circumstances or hardship, from medical to criminal, financial or psychological. Who sits down to ponder "ah well do I fancy this baby or not", which would constitute your real free choice.


  • #1073
    mac.in
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 594 ✭✭✭mac.in


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    My niece has had three miscarriages.(None of them in Galway)
    Standard practice in each case, even though the baby was already dead, was to wait until she miscarried naturally. On one occasion, that took two weeks.
    Each time, she was given a course of antibiotics until the baby was miscarried, and for a week afterwards, to ward off infection/septicaemia.

    It appears to be standard medical practice. My niece was told it was because the risk related to infection was regarded as lower than the risks associated with D&C.
    Hence, afaik, the whole abortion thing appears to be a complete red herring.

    My sincere condolences to the family involved. R.I.P.

    Perfect. Antibiotics are given to prevent infection. But even after giving antibiotics if the person gets infection (in case of Savita, she developed chills, shivering, vomiting, collapse), there is no scope of any help from antibiotics; termination is the only choice. What was done here for Savita? She was still kept waiting till next day for the foetal heart to stop beating, in the name of law. The actual bone of contention, I feel, is this.
    Anyways, my sincere condolences to the family involved too. R.I.P.


  • #1074
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Rodin wrote: »

    Many may have had a termination. The fact is they died anyway.

    The line being put out here is that termination would have saved this woman. There is no evidence to support that.

    Those women could have had terminations after they had infections. Savita asked for hers before that stage.


  • #1075
    ilovesleep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    MagicSean wrote: »
    I was in favour of all those things actually.

    But did you propose those issues and demand for them or did you favour them after they were proposed? I'm going to guess the later.

    Why is they were able to use their own initative on these smalls issues but not on the big issues such as abortion?

    I read last year that the EU were after Ireland for years to move forward on abortion and bring us up to date and in line with the EU. I'll see if I can root it up.


  • #1076
    Rodin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    nervous_twitch wrote: »
    I don't want to speculate or disrespect those close to her in any way, but surely a woman collapsing in pain - a woman who eventually died - should have been recommended a termination much earlier? I know we can't legislate for the exactitudes, but any medical practitioner should know where the line needs to be drawn, and should be able to draw that line themselves.

    And perhaps they do know from their own experience.
    They are not fortune tellers though. Not all outcomes are obvious.

    It may well be that in the doctor's experience, people in this situation actually make it.


  • #1077
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    Rodin wrote: »
    It is simply impossible to legislate for every medical possibility.

    Terminations are already carried out in this country if the mother's life is deemed to be at threat. Perhaps the imminent threat to this woman's life was not recognised. That may be a clinical error and nothing to do with legislation or lack of.

    Just what legislation exactly do people want?


    I suppose the mother who survives and sues the doctor because he aborted her baby who still had a heart beat.


  • #1078
    Rodin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    mhge wrote: »
    Those women could have had terminations after they had infections. Savita asked for hers before that stage.

    She didn't have the right to demand one.


  • #1079
    Hippies!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 555 ✭✭✭Hippies!


    billybudd wrote: »

    Ireland does not own tragedy and religious attrocities.

    Yes it does....obviously. :rolleyes:


  • #1080
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    :rolleyes:
    Hippies! wrote: »
    Yes it does....obviously. :rolleyes:


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  • #1081
    ilovesleep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    She is the only person that knew her own body. No body else but her. No doctors or nurses, nobody but her. She felt she needed a termination and she asked for it. But she was not allowed by law. The problem here is our law.

    Enda Kenny the fcuking worm will sit on this no doubt.


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