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Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

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Comments

  • #962
    andrewdeerpark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 951 ✭✭✭andrewdeerpark


    As B0jangles said in his excellent post the woman gave 3 days dying. The faint heartbeat of the foetus beating poisoning her from within.

    The hospital and head consultant could have got a legal opinion from the DPP even went to the supreme court in emergency in that all that time. Did they even seek a legal opinion from any senior counsel?

    Instead they sat around gave some anti-biotic's and watched her die. Disgraceful.

    That is why I linked the staff directory I believe senior medical figures in that hospital did not do enough.


  • #963
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    Why would I need an advance copy?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741
    Septicemia is an infection in the blood, it tells us nothing about how it was caused.

    And even if that were not the case yet, would you seriously sit there with a straight face and suggest that her death was entirely coincidental to an agonising three day miscarriage?
    I don't know.

    Neither do you.

    The point I'm making is you're arrogantly and thunderously posting as if you know all the facts already and the only conclusion to be made is your conclusion.

    You know no more than anyone else, so do stop being so arrogant.

    Now, are you going to admit you don't know the details of her death and were in fact bull****ting in your prior posts?
    Are you also willing to admit you can't speak to(or for) the dead so don't in fact know what reaction would be the most insulting for her? (handy that the reaction you chose is one diametrically opposed to your point of view).

    Stop raping this womans memory for your own purpose, stop lying and bull****ting while doing so.

    Someone died, have some ****ing respect for her and her memory, she's more than a way for you to achieve whatever agenda you're trying to forward.


  • #964
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    The CC are partly to blame and although interest in the CC is dwindling, many people still look up to the CC and CC still has an influence of sorts. They impose their views on others and some people lap it up.
    (I'm guessing a lot of these people who still look up to the CC are those of the grey vote. And that's where politics plays a part. A politician willing to legalise abortion could lose many votes).


    Look i dont want to turn this into an argument and i am not a CC apologist. It is the peoples fault for not demanding more clarity after the X case and for it to be legislated and its the governments fault for not having the balls to get this done, plus they should have made provision for a new referendum and let the population decide as it has been too long since the last one especially with the mind set having changed so much since then in regard to the CC.

    The CC are just a lobby and a vocal group but they do not make laws and they do not have the authority to change the way a country is, not anymore anyway.

    My point is that by blaming the CC it takes away from the shortcomings of the people who should be held accountable.


  • #965
    HeyThereDeliah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 967 ✭✭✭HeyThereDeliah


    saspeir wrote: »
    A question I would have is:

    How were the family informed of the situation regarding the law in Ireland and the fine line between abortion by choice vs. abortion because of a risk to the mother's life.

    If the doctor left the issue by saying "Ireland is a Catholic country" then I strongly feel this man/woman should be struck off. He didn't inform the patient/family of their rights should the patient deteriorate further. All scenarios should have been covered.

    Had the husband known of the situation here maybe those 3 days could have been used to seek advice and legal counsel.

    I hope the papers thoroughly investigate this and leave no stone unturned. This is now of international interest.

    I'm sure they both knew abortion is illegal in Ireland. How do you know what was said to the couple?


  • #966
    saspeir
    Site Banned Posts: 109 ✭✭saspeir


    Tragedy wrote: »
    Septicemia is an infection in the blood, it tells us nothing about how it wad caused.

    Did the Bible tell you that? Septicemia occurs once an infection has developed in an organ, the womb in this case, and then breaks out into the blood.

    Don't be a sciolist and pretend you know it all.


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  • #967
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    andrewdeerpark wrote: »
    That is why I linked the staff directory I believe senior medical figures in that hospital did not do enough.

    What do you expect to achieve by doing that exactly?


  • #968
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    saspeir wrote: »
    Did the Bible tell you that? Septicemia occurs once an infection has developed in an organ, the womb in this case, and then breaks out into the blood.

    Don't be a sciolist and pretend you know it all. Did the

    What? Is this even English?


  • #969
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Tragedy wrote: »
    What? Is this even English?
    YOU GOT HIM REALLLLLLLLLLL GOOOOD!


  • #970
    saspeir
    Site Banned Posts: 109 ✭✭saspeir


    HeyThereDeliah wrote: »
    I'm sure they both knew abortion is illegal in Ireland. How do you know what was said to the couple?
    I don't know what exactly was said to the couple but having heard the husband interviewed on C4 news he said he was told by a doctor that "Ireland is a Catholic country".

    My gut feeling, just as an aside, is when you hear such a phrase used it screams of 'this is Ireland, get used to it or fook off'.

    I wonder is that medic either (a) a religious nutjob and/or (b) xenophobic.


  • #971
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Tasden wrote: »
    Hence me saying he (or whoever) made a rational medical judgement.

    Yes it turned out to be wrong in hindsight but a medical assessment was made as to whether or not her life was in danger at the time, it was deemed not to be. Due to legislation this meant they could not carry out a termination.

    My point was that the doctor did not just whip out his bible and spout on about how abortion is wrong in catholic Ireland. He may have just been trying to explain how his hands are tied due to the legislation.

    It's awesome that you know that. How did you get an advance copy of the autopsy report/inquiry?


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  • #972
    andrewdeerpark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 951 ✭✭✭andrewdeerpark


    HeyThereDeliah wrote: »
    I don't think moving her would be an option at that stage.

    Erne Hospital in Enniskillen is 3 hours away by road travelling the legal speed limit so less by ambulance. I would assume about 30 minutes by air ambulance helicopter.

    Did they even suggest it? Has it ever been tried. If the correct medical decision was to abort the child but Galway could not do it, why was it not tried?

    It seems to me a lot was not tried. No senior counsel legal opinion, no court action and no transfer to NI.

    A lot of questions to answer.


  • #973
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    saspeir wrote: »
    My gut feeling, just as an aside, is when you hear such a phrase used it screams of 'this is Ireland, get used to it or fook off'.

    I wonder is that medic either (a) a religious nutjob and/or (b) xenophobic.

    Good to see that people are relying on their gut instincts rather than evidence or anything like that.

    Would it kill people to wait for the outcome of a credible investigation? Or should we just hang the consultants now?


  • #974
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    andrewdeerpark wrote: »
    As B0jangles said in his excellent post the woman gave 3 days dying. The faint heartbeat of the foetus beating poisoning her from within.

    The hospital and head consultant could have got a legal opinion from the DPP even went to the supreme court in emergency in that all that time. Did they even seek a legal opinion from any senior counsel?

    Instead they sat around gave some anti-biotic's and watched her die. Disgraceful.

    That is why I linked the staff directory I believe senior medical figures in that hospital did not do enough.

    No you were looking for a witch hunt.

    The doctor could not perform the termination without risk of prosecution, incarceration and litigation as well as the possibility of losing his job. Even if it is likely he would have it all overturned in the future it is unfair to put that kind of decision on one man. That is why legislation and guidance was needed.


  • #975
    Callan57
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭Callan57


    The way this lady was treated is appalling ... you really wouldn't leave a dog in pain & distress for 3 days. It's too easy to blame the consultant - listening to the 6 news this evening it is entirely unclear what the position is and it would appear to me the doctors hands were tied unless s/he was prepared to risk their career & reputation.
    This is a very worrying time for pregnant women in this country ... it's high time we grew up and deal with 2012 issues as adults not as gombeens looking over their shoulder trying to appease a lunatic fringe. :eek: And leaving it to Britian to sort out our mess.
    Beside the point but no doubt this case will in due course involve another huge payout to this ladys husband (and rightly so) ... another hole to be filled by the hard pressed taxpayer.


  • #976
    keano_afc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    saspeir wrote: »
    Did you drop your morals when you picked up the Bible?
    saspeir wrote: »
    Did the Bible tell you that? Septicemia occurs once an infection has developed in an organ, the womb in this case, and then breaks out into the blood.

    Don't be a sciolist and pretend you know it all.

    I think you should stop using this tragedy as a springboard for your hatred of God.


  • #977
    andrewdeerpark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 951 ✭✭✭andrewdeerpark


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    What do you expect to achieve by doing that exactly?

    Narrow it down, lets get the consultants name out their and address several questions raised.


  • #978
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    keano_afc wrote: »
    I think you should stop using this tragedy as a springboard for your hatred of God.

    I wouldn't mind but I've never actually read the bible!

    PS: Quote from here.
    Dr Muiris Houston, health analyst for The Irish Times, said that all of the circumstances surrounding the incident had not been revealed yet.

    He described it as a "rare situation".

    "It is deeply shocking, but I think as responsible people we have to remember that you do need to hear all sides of the story before you make any definitive comment," he said.

    "I do believe we need to do that in this case."


  • #979
    HeyThereDeliah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 967 ✭✭✭HeyThereDeliah


    Tragedy wrote: »
    Septicemia is an infection in the blood, it tells us nothing about how it was caused.

    The cause here was because she was fully dilated, cervix was open and high risk for infection.


  • #980
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    keano_afc wrote: »
    I think you should stop using this tragedy as a springboard for your hatred of God.
    he doesnt believe in unicorns either. Unicorn hatin' bastid!


  • #981
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    MagicSean wrote: »
    No you were looking for a witch hunt.

    The doctor could not perform the termination without risk of prosecution, incarceration and litigation as well as the possibility of losing his job. Even if it is likely he would have it all overturned in the future it is unfair to put that kind of decision on one man. That is why legislation and guidance was needed.


    This is it, the government can say what it likes because they are hiding behind a legal quarry, rather than clarify, they state an ambiguous law and wait and see what happens.


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  • #982
    Truman Burbank
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Truman Burbank


    andrewdeerpark wrote: »
    If Galway hospital handled the situation with "this is a catholic country" and left the woman die then manslaughter charges should be made against the consultant concerned that is the actions of a religious zealot, no better than the Taliban

    Andrew dear, park your thoughts in your head because they are absurd. Yours etc.


  • #983
    Cool Mo D
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    MagicSean wrote: »
    No you were looking for a witch hunt.

    The doctor could not perform the termination without risk of prosecution, incarceration and litigation as well as the possibility of losing his job. Even if it is likely he would have it all overturned in the future it is unfair to put that kind of decision on one man. That is why legislation and guidance was needed.

    Yes he could. It is clearly established that abortion is legal in the case of risk of life to the mother. Abortions are routinely carried out in the case of ectopic pregnancies here even.


  • #984
    andrewdeerpark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 951 ✭✭✭andrewdeerpark


    MagicSean wrote: »
    No you were looking for a witch hunt.

    The doctor could not perform the termination without risk of prosecution, incarceration and litigation as well as the possibility of losing his job. Even if it is likely he would have it all overturned in the future it is unfair to put that kind of decision on one man. That is why legislation and guidance was needed.

    So the hospital and consultant done a brilliant job so, no questions to answer case closed!


  • #985
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    http://www.thejournal.ie/savita-demonstration-leinster-house-674695-Nov2012

    There is an excellent post on The Journal explaining how the law is applied in practice and how fuzzy edges may cause it happen again, by Katie Does.

    Not sure if it's ok to quote it here, mods please edit it out if not!
    @Mike You make it sound so simple.
    If you had listened to her husband and to news reports you would know that she was given antibiotics from the outset. You would also know that septicemia is a well known and extremely serious complication of miscarriage, because when the cervix is open and the uterus enlarged, soft and with such a good blood supply, antibiotics alone are often not enough. You would also have learned that the recognised treatment, where infection is likely or there are signs of infection and the pregnancy no longer viable, is to empty the uterus so that the cervix can close.
    You are wrong to say there is legislation in place to deal with this already. There is not.
    The law in a fuzzy way allows for procedures where the death of the foetus is the likely result of life saving treatment for the mother – but ONLY provided every effort is also made to preserve the life of the foetus, which is accorded equal rights. The dilemma that arises in Ireland is that if there are no signs of life-threatening infection already present, even though everyone knows that there is a very high risk of it occuring, there are NO legal grounds on which doctors can act to remove the foetus – thereby necessarily causing its death – even where there is no hope that it would have lived anyway. You are assuming a failure of diagnosis in the absence of evidence. There are fast moving, fast changing medical conditions – diagnosis is not a simple black and white affair.
    It seems to me that the sad truth is that Savita did not get sick enough fast enough to allow doctors to decide that such an procedure could legally be carried out. She wasn’t assessed to be already dying, therefore legally nothing could be done, even in the knowledge that every extra hour was increasing the risk of the eventual outcome substantially. Only by risking their careers by carrying out a procedure that was clearly against the law could the medics have acted.
    You can argue that they should, morally, have done so in spite of the legal situation and to hell with the consequences. But dilemmas of this sort, in spite of what people like to believe, are not all that rare. Doctors have to make difficult calls like this regularly.
    Sometimes they are lucky and although they don’t act, things work out ok, but I personally know of more than one case where they have taken a risk and quietly broken the law to do what was needed. But they should never, ever, ever, be in a position where they have to take medical decisions like this in the absence of legal protection and while thinking about the law rather than the best interests of their patient.


  • #986
    saspeir
    Site Banned Posts: 109 ✭✭saspeir


    keano_afc wrote: »
    I think you should stop using this tragedy as a springboard for your hatred of God.
    I don't hold particularly strong emotions for fictitious characters.

    Dangerous and irrationally held beliefs that take lives on the other hand...


  • #987
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    The X case wouldn't have helped this woman when she initially found out she was having a miscarriage, from press reports.

    I think there is a huge body of opinion out there that thinks legislating for the X case would be a panacea, its still very limited and mostly deals with suicide being treated as justifiable cause.

    I'm no expert but the X case wouldn't have been much use to this woman who wanted to "abort" a baby, she was going to miscarry anyway.
    andrewdeerpark wrote: »
    Their is the grey area where the mothers life is threatened.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/debate-rages-on-20-years-after-the-x-case-resolved-nothing-3294263.html

    X Case
    "The case resulted in a Supreme Court ruling that terminations should be lawful when a woman's life is in danger or she is at risk of suicide."

    The consultant had plenty of grey areas to work within.

    Or did he / she (consultant) not think to transfer her to a hospital in Northern Ireland?

    Either way the consultant has questions to answer. So put a microphone in front of him.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #988
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    HeyThereDeliah wrote: »
    The cause here was because she was fully dilated, cervix was open and high risk for infection.

    Really, where did you read that?

    I mean it's true that the cervix being fully dilated carries a high risk of infection, but I don't recall reading anywhere that that was deemed to be the case in this situation.

    Any chance you could provide proof, or are you another spoofer drawing wonky conclusions and facts from supposition?


  • #989
    keano_afc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    he doesnt believe in unicorns either. Unicorn hatin' bastid!

    Sshhh, the adults are talking.


  • #990
    andrewdeerpark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 951 ✭✭✭andrewdeerpark


    Truman Burbank wrote: »
    Andrew dear, park your thoughts in your head because they are absurd. Yours etc.

    Mine is just another view point, I may be totally wrong, however as I and several others cannot understand the woman took 3 days to die, this was not a case where an instant decision has to be made, the consultant had time to consider a lot of possibilities, all I am saying is did he / she do his or her job to the fullest.


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  • #991
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Twenty years late, two failed referenda and an innocent woman dead in UCGH
    WE MUST LEGISLATE FOR X!
    #Savita


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