Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/

Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

1…2930323435…99

Comments

  • #932
    HeyThereDeliah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 967 ✭✭✭HeyThereDeliah


    andrewdeerpark wrote: »
    If Galway hospital handled the situation with "this is a catholic country" and left the woman die then manslaughter charges should be made against the consultant concerned that is the actions of a religious zealot, no better than the Taliban.

    Both individuals asked several times for a termination.

    The doctor who ever it was could not offer her a termination, why is this so hard for some people to understand?
    You cannot ask for a termination and expect it will be carried out. I don't think there is one person on here who thinks this lady should have died but the doctor could not do anything.

    I would like to hear the doctor speak on what happened and his own view on the matter, I'm sure the "this is a catholic country" is him explaining why he could not carry out a termination.


  • #933
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    andrewdeerpark wrote: »
    If Galway hospital handled the situation with "this is a catholic country" and left the woman die then manslaughter charges should be made against the consultant concerned that is the actions of a religious zealot, no better than the Taliban.

    Both individuals asked several times for a termination.

    That's so incredibly stupid.

    And it still doesn't explain why you linked the staff register.


  • #934
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    Tragedy wrote: »
    It's awesome that you know that. How did you get an advance copy of the autopsy report/inquiry?

    It's awesome that you know that. How did you get an advance copy of the autopsy report/inquiry?


    It's awesome that you know that. How did you get an advance copy of the autopsy report/inquiry?

    Also, you can speak with the dead? I have some people I'd like you to get in touch with, ta.

    Why would I need an advance copy?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741
    An autopsy carried out two days after her death found she had died from septicaemia.

    And even if that were not the case yet, would you seriously sit there with a straight face and suggest that her death was entirely coincidental to an agonising three day miscarriage?


  • #935
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Tasden wrote: »
    Was it not a case of the consultant making a rational medical judgement that her life was not then at risk and as a result of current legislation his hands were tied on the issue. And in explaining his situation he told her that it is due to Ireland being a catholic country etc.?


    This was not a situation where a doctor/surgeon had to make a decision within the high-pressure circumstances of a major operation.

    This woman visibly deteriorated over a period of three days. The medical team had ample opportunity over those 72 hours to seek alternate legal and medical advice. Instead it appears they chose to "wait and see" as this woman proceeded to die of an infection that has been preventable since the 1840's ( google puerperal fever)


  • #936
    Hungerford
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Hungerford


    There's an extremely interesting piece on a new blog which I have started reading recently about the potential links between the UCHG incident and the wider medical community in terms of a 'Dublin declaration' made a few months ago at a medical conference here that stated that abortion is unnecessary in all circumstances:

    http://griffinsrealm.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/abortion-where-irish-medicine-and-dogma-collide/


  • Advertisement
  • #937
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    B0jangles wrote: »


    This was not a situation where a doctor/surgeon had to make a decision within the high-pressure circumstances of a major operation.

    This woman visibly deteriorated over a period of three days. The medical team had ample opportunity over those 72 hours to seek alternate legal and medical advice. Instead it appears they chose to "wait and see" as this woman proceeded to die of an infection that has been preventable since the 1840's ( google puerperal fever)

    Hence me saying he (or whoever) made a rational medical judgement.

    Yes it turned out to be wrong in hindsight but a medical assessment was made as to whether or not her life was in danger at the time, it was deemed not to be. Due to legislation this meant they could not carry out a termination.

    My point was that the doctor did not just whip out his bible and spout on about how abortion is wrong in catholic Ireland. He may have just been trying to explain how his hands are tied due to the legislation.


  • #938
    pennypocket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭pennypocket


    saspeir wrote: »
    Ireland is secular!?

    I couldn't become a Judge in this country because I would have to make an oath that only a Christian could.

    Prayers are said every morning in the Dáil.

    Secular organisations have to fight for representation to governments even though they are the 2nd biggest group in this country.

    When elected officials reflect the secular numbers on the ground and State and church are totally separated, only then will Ireland be secular!

    It's so strange because we don't officially have an established church. (England does, as many other countries). But somehow, and at every turn from independence, Rome rules the roost.


  • #939
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,946 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    Tasden wrote: »
    He may have just been trying to explain how his hands are tied due to the legislation.

    And now she's dead.
    She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said, 'As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can't do anything'," her husband was quoted as saying by the newspaper.

    And now she's dead.
    Having been told she was miscarrying, and after one day in severe pain, Savita asked for a medical termination. This was refused, he says, because the foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told, "This is a Catholic country".


    And now she is dead.

    The technicality of a heartbeat on a miscarried foetus killed a woman because there is no clarity that protects a mother's right to life over an unviable foetus.


  • #940
    andrewdeerpark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 951 ✭✭✭andrewdeerpark


    Tasden wrote: »
    Was it not a case of the consultant making a rational medical judgement that her life was not then at risk and as a result of current legislation his hands were tied on the issue. And in explaining his situation he told her that it is due to Ireland being a catholic country etc.?

    Or was the consultant a religious fanatic who used this case to prove a point against abortion. Lets assume he aborted the child with the express consent of both parties and the mother lived. Would he be prosecuted for it?

    Its such a grey area legally I seriously doubt the DPP would even send it to court.

    Only the hospital staff know if the consultant is a religious fanatic however the way its being leaked out means I suspect the staff are leaking for a reason.


  • #941
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    seb65 wrote: »
    Actually, there are studies that show after abortion was legalized in New York City the rate of crime started dropping.

    Studies that have loads of holes in them.

    http://www.nrlc.org/news/2001/NRL06/randylaura.html

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Advertisement
  • #942
    pennypocket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭pennypocket


    HeyThereDeliah wrote: »
    The doctor who ever it was could not offer her a termination, why is this so hard for some people to understand?
    You cannot ask for a termination and expect it will be carried out. I don't think there is one person on here who thinks this lady should have died but the doctor could not do anything.

    I would like to hear the doctor speak on what happened and his own view on the matter, I'm sure the "this is a catholic country" is him explaining why he could not carry out a termination.

    So disregarding the 'catholic country' quote, a medical procedure which would be performed in any civilised country was denied this woman, and she died a reportedly agonising death. The doctors could have done something.


  • #943
    HeyThereDeliah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 967 ✭✭✭HeyThereDeliah


    andrewdeerpark wrote: »
    Or was the consultant a religious fanatic who used this case to prove a point against abortion. Lets assume he aborted the child with the express consent of both parties and the mother lived. Would he be prosecuted for it?

    Its such a grey area legally I seriously doubt the DPP would even send it to court.

    Only the hospital staff know if the consultant is a religious fanatic however the way its being leaked out means I suspect the staff are leaking for a reason.

    Do you know it was a male doctor?


  • #944
    andrewdeerpark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 951 ✭✭✭andrewdeerpark


    B0jangles wrote: »
    This was not a situation where a doctor/surgeon had to make a decision within the high-pressure circumstances of a major operation.

    This woman visibly deteriorated over a period of three days. The medical team had ample opportunity over those 72 hours to seek alternate legal and medical advice. Instead it appears they chose to "wait and see" as this woman proceeded to die of an infection that has been preventable since the 1840's ( google puerperal fever)

    I only hope the papers have the balls to name the consultant who made the decision tomorrow. We see the same with banking people hidden behind faceless organisations.


  • #945
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Tasden wrote: »
    Hence me saying he (or whoever) made a rational medical judgement.

    Yes it turned out to be wrong in hindsight but a medical assessment was made as to whether or not her life was in danger at the time, it was deemed not to be.

    At what time? At hour 30, 45, 60, 65 ?
    When she developed a high fever?
    When she collapsed on her way to the toilet?
    When all of her organs failed?

    Let's be realistic, this woman went from being reasonably well to dying inside an Irish hospital, with 72 hours of that decline happening due to an apparent legal need to allow a dying fetus to fail unaided.

    That is disgraceful and should never ever happen again.


  • #946
    pennypocket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭pennypocket


    andrewdeerpark wrote: »
    I only hope the papers have the balls to name the consultant who made the decision tomorrow. We see the same with banking people hidden behind faceless organisations.

    Why would it matter? They acted within the parameters of Irish law as it stands.


  • #947
    HeyThereDeliah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 967 ✭✭✭HeyThereDeliah


    pennypocket wrote: »
    So disregarding the 'catholic country' quote, a medical procedure which would be performed in any civilised country was denied this woman, and she died a reportedly agonising death. The doctors could have done something.

    What could the doctor do? We can go round in circles all night but it will not change the outcome, abortion is illegal in Ireland.


  • #948
    vetinari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭vetinari


    saspeir wrote: »
    Ireland is secular!?

    I couldn't become a Judge in this country because I would have to make an oath that only a Christian could.

    Prayers are said every morning in the Dáil.

    Secular organisations have to fight for representation to governments even though they are the 2nd biggest group in this country.

    When elected officials reflect the secular numbers on the ground and State and church are totally separated, only then will Ireland be secular!

    Yes, Ireland is secular. The government can pass an abortion law in the morning. It does not need the church's permission.


  • #949
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    mac.in wrote: »
    Well, when the mother complained of abdominal pain, she was diagnosed of miscarriage. Later she suffered for 2 and 1/2 days with abdominal pain with out any treatment. So does her abdominal pain doesn't warrant any attention? :confused:

    Legally it required attention which she got, just not abortion. That's the legality, not my opinion.

    There was no substantial threat to her life initially so denying her and his wishes was fine. Some posters here seem ok with that as there is nothing wrong with our current laws whatsoever apparently. The current law nor indeed the X case addresses that scenario, IMO.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #950
    Red Pepper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭Red Pepper


    This is an extremely sad case but am I the only one amazed at the reaction and the coverage this story has got in 24 hours? People protesting at the Dáil already (I thought Irish people didn't protest), Candle-lit vigils organised, Twitter on fire, Facebook, Forums. I would prefer to hear more from the consultants perspective before I make any comments myself.


  • #951
    saspeir
    Site Banned Posts: 109 ✭✭saspeir


    vetinari wrote: »
    Yes, Ireland is secular. The government can pass an abortion law in the morning. It does not need the church's permission.
    I'm pretty sure it couldn't do that.

    Ireland is not secular. Church still interferes with State. It's called the Iona Institute.


  • Advertisement
  • #952
    andrewdeerpark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 951 ✭✭✭andrewdeerpark


    pennypocket wrote: »
    Why would it matter? They acted within the parameters of Irish law as it stands.

    Their is the grey area where the mothers life is threatened.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/debate-rages-on-20-years-after-the-x-case-resolved-nothing-3294263.html

    X Case
    "The case resulted in a Supreme Court ruling that terminations should be lawful when a woman's life is in danger or she is at risk of suicide."

    The consultant had plenty of grey areas to work within.

    Or did he / she (consultant) not think to transfer her to a hospital in Northern Ireland?

    Either way the consultant has questions to answer. So put a microphone in front of him.


  • #953
    starlit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,349 ✭✭✭✭starlit


    Its true its all down to the legality. It unfortunate. Surely if the child wouldn't likely to survive the mother's health should be the first concern. I suppose the hospital didn't want to get the wrong side of the law I suppose but at the same time they should have sent her to the UK asap even if she requested to terminate the pregnancy. The catholic church or any religion should not have much to do with this.

    This case though very sad it could have a huge bearing of what might happen in the future in terms of abortion if it were to be a possibility in Ireland, a referendum in this case could be on the cards and could change all that into a potential yes vote. I don't agree with it but under certain circumstances like this an abortion should been allowed for medical reasons to save the mother. Catholic religions and those who are religious should not come into the equation but it was the law that stopped them but in the back of their minds the ould catholic church hold and beliefs still stood in the way.

    Every pregnancy should be looked after right throughout and the after care after a birth or what ever the outcome it maybe regardless of number of weeks. Each mother and baby should be treated equally and with the care they should deserve and be thorough care.

    Wouldn't the best interest of the mother take just as much of a priority of the baby!


  • #954
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    saspeir wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure it couldn't do that.

    Ireland is not secular. Church still interferes with State. It's called the Iona Institute.

    The Iona Institute is a private think-tank with no more power than any other private organisation.


  • #955
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    Red Pepper wrote: »
    This is an extremely sad case but am I the only one amazed at the reaction and the coverage this story has got in 24 hours? People protesting at the Dáil already (I thought Irish people didn't protest), Candle-lit vigils organised, Twitter on fire, Facebook, Forums. I would prefer to hear more from the consultants perspective before I make any comments myself.

    I'm not surprised about it. Since I was a child I have seen occasional stories crop up about abortion. The X case, the C case, the A,B and C case .....and now this. It's infuriating that for many people, they have been watching case after case, woman after woman, be put through the ringer over abortion laws in this country. And now a woman has died.
    Enough is enough.

    People are maddened at the absolute unwillingness of the government to deal with this issue because none of them are brave enough to take a stance.

    I was watching it with my daughter on the news today and realised as I was explaining it to her that she is the same age I was when my mam was explaining the X case to me.......in 20 years will she be explaining it to her daughter, or worse will she be another letter in another case?


  • #956
    notnumber
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,564 ✭✭✭notnumber


    Seems to me she could have well have died anyway..if the baby was terminated would she still have died? I would still give the benefit of the doubt to our learned doctors to have the final say but having the option to terminate..


  • #957
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    andrewdeerpark wrote: »

    Or was the consultant a religious fanatic who used this case to prove a point against abortion. Lets assume he aborted the child with the express consent of both parties and the mother lived. Would he be prosecuted for it?

    Its such a grey area legally I seriously doubt the DPP would even send it to court.

    Only the hospital staff know if the consultant is a religious fanatic however the way its being leaked out means I suspect the staff are leaking for a reason.

    Grey area or not a doctor made a medical judgement (which unfortunately was wrong) and abided by the law.
    If you're going to play ifs and buts what if he aborted the baby and the mother still died?
    What do you want doctors to do, turn a blind eye to every law they consider a grey area? Decide what to do based on whether they will be prosecuted or not? The doctor concluded that her life was not at risk and acted accordingly.
    And if the hospital staff had issues with his abilities as a doctor they should have expressed them before a woman died in his care.


  • #958
    saspeir
    Site Banned Posts: 109 ✭✭saspeir


    A question I would have is:

    How were the family informed of the situation regarding the law in Ireland and the fine line between abortion by choice vs. abortion because of a risk to the mother's life.

    If the doctor left the issue by saying "Ireland is a Catholic country" then I strongly feel this man/woman should be struck off. He didn't inform the patient/family of their rights should the patient deteriorate further. All scenarios should have been covered.

    Had the husband known of the situation here maybe those 3 days could have been used to seek advice and legal counsel.

    I hope the papers thoroughly investigate this and leave no stone unturned. This is now of international interest.


  • #959
    HeyThereDeliah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 967 ✭✭✭HeyThereDeliah


    andrewdeerpark wrote: »
    Their is the grey area where the mothers life is threatened.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/debate-rages-on-20-years-after-the-x-case-resolved-nothing-3294263.html

    X Case
    "The case resulted in a Supreme Court ruling that terminations should be lawful when a woman's life is in danger or she is at risk of suicide."

    The consultant had plenty of grey areas to work within.

    Or did he / she (consultant) not think to transfer her to a hospital in Northern Ireland?

    Either way the consultant has questions to answer. So put a microphone in front of him.

    I don't think moving her would be an option at that stage.


  • #960
    btard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭btard


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    RIP to the woman but personally I'd never be embarrassed to be Irish.

    Well you damn well should be.


  • Advertisement
  • #961
    saspeir
    Site Banned Posts: 109 ✭✭saspeir


    Tasden wrote: »
    Grey area or not a doctor made a medical judgement (which unfortunately was wrong) and abided by the law.
    If you're going to play ifs and buts what if he aborted the baby and the mother still died?
    What do you want doctors to do, turn a blind eye to every law they consider a grey area? Decide what to do based on whether they will be prosecuted or not? The doctor concluded that her life was not at risk and acted accordingly.
    And if the hospital staff had issues with his abilities as a doctor they should have expressed them before a woman died in his care.

    Did the doctor abide by the law in not informing the patient of her right to abortion should her life be at risk and that it might be prudent to seek legal counsel?

    If s/he didn't that surely must count as misconduct for hiding/forgetting vital information.


Advertisement