Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

MagicSean · 14-11-2012 08:41PM

who the fug wrote: »

Whilst it looks that way, continue on and he/she explains it

No sources for one thing.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

A January 2010 Irish Examiner/RedC poll about abortion in Ireland found that 60% felt abortion should be legalised, and 10% had been in a relationship in which an abortion had taken place.

Legalised to what extent?

poeticseraphim wrote: »

A January 2010 opinion|poll conducted by Millward Brown Landsdown for the Pro Life Campaign found 70% of people questioned favored constitutional protection for the unborn under circumstances where intervention to save the mother's life was legal.

SO A PRO LIFE OPINION POLL FOUND THAT 70% of people question the favoured the unborn child. STILL THINK IT IS BIAS????

And you cannot claim bias in the case of the Millward Brown Landsdown for the Pro Life Campaign that foun 70 % of people disagree with the rights of the unborn as they stand.

Three different conclusions from the one poll.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Referenda in 1992 and in 2002 rejected proposals to further restrict access to abortion. No referendum has ever been held to offer Irish people the opportunity to make access to abortion less restrictive; opinion polls, however, consistently indicate public support for less restrictive abortion regulation.

Irrelevent. It's just as possible people are satisifed with the current position as it is they want it on demand.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

A 2004 Crisis Pregnancy Agency study found that 90% of 18-45 year olds support abortion in certain circumstances, with 51% stating that women should always have to right to choose an abortion.That was eight years ago.

i don't doubt 90% of people attending a crisis pregnancy service would like abortion fully legalised.

keano_afc · 14-11-2012 08:42PM

saspeir wrote: »

Matters such as this make me ashamed to be Irish.

This story has just been on Channel 4 news. The presenter warned "that some viewers may find the report disturbing". You normally get that kind of warning before some war report or a report with images of mutilated bodies.

Catholic Church = Scum!

I'm not Catholic, but what has the church got to do with this?

seb65 · 14-11-2012 08:43PM

keano_afc wrote: »

I'm not Catholic, but what has the church got to do with this?

Are you kidding?

strandroad · 14-11-2012 08:44PM

ibarelycare wrote: »

Very mixed. Mainly 20s/early 30s I'd say but lots of older people as well.

And folks just after work, started arriving well after 6. This photo on FB shows the numbers if you want to count, there was also good crowd where I was in Molesworth St around the corner.

keano_afc · 14-11-2012 08:45PM

seb65 wrote: »

Are you kidding?

No, would you like to enlighten me and tell me how the Catholic church is directly responsible for this tragedy?

saspeir · 14-11-2012 08:45PM

keano_afc wrote: »

I'm not Catholic, but what has the church got to do with this?

http://www.channel4.com/news/woman-dies-in-ireland-after-abortion-refused

Read this. Particularly the quote about how medics referred to Ireland being a "Catholic Country"!

jill_valentine · 14-11-2012 08:47PM

Tragedy wrote: »

So the ends justify the means?

The abortion debate is truly long overdue, abusing a dead woman's memory to push for it isn't the right way to do it.

If the debate had been hashed out sooner, she would not be dead.

This is not a philosophical issue, it's not something that exists only in arguments and on paper. As we've seen in the most stark possible terms, for the women of Ireland, it's potentially very literally a matter of life and death.

I can think of no possible reaction that would be more insulting to this woman than meekly consenting silence in the face of the completely avoidable situation that killed her.

keano_afc · 14-11-2012 08:49PM

saspeir wrote: »

http://www.channel4.com/news/woman-dies-in-ireland-after-abortion-refused

Read this. Particularly the quote about how medics referred to Ireland being a "Catholic Country"!

And thats been proved has it? Or is it just something you've read in this thread or picked up in a newspaper report?

I just think its wrong to jump to conclusions on what happened in relation to what was or wasn't said in this case.

vetinari · 14-11-2012 08:50PM

saspeir wrote: »

http://www.channel4.com/news/woman-dies-in-ireland-after-abortion-refused

Read this. Particularly the quote about how medics referred to Ireland being a "Catholic Country"!

It's a bit ridiculous to blame the catholic church. Ireland is now a secular country and hiding behind the catholic argument to avoid passing legislation is cowardly.

saspeir · 14-11-2012 08:50PM

keano_afc wrote: »

And thats been proved has it? Or is it just something you've read in this thread or picked up in a newspaper report?

I just think its wrong to jump to conclusions on what happened in relation to what was or wasn't said in this case.

So you wouldn't believe the husband of this lady?

The interview was recorded and shown on C4 news this evening. He quoted what they were told by medics in response to numerous requests for a termination by Savita.

B0jangles · 14-11-2012 08:51PM

As additional fodder for the pro-choice side, here's a like to the Irish Royal College of Surgeons report from this year:

interesting sample quote:

"Attitudes towards abortion: key findings
• Approximately 1 in 11 adults (9%) believe that abortion is not permissible in any
circumstance. This finding has remained stable since ICCP-2003.
• Fewer adults (45%) are of the opinion that abortion is permissible in all
circumstances than were in ICCP-2003 (51%).
• More adults believe that abortion is permissible under certain circumstances
(44%), compared with ICCP-2003 (39%); however, attitudes regarding the specific
circumstances in which abortion is permissible remained very stable over the sevenyear
period.
• The most common circumstances when an abortion is deemed permissible is when
the pregnancy seriously endangers a woman’s life (95%) or health (89%), or when
the pregnancy is the result of rape (88%) or incest (86%).
• Less support was evident for an abortion if the child has a serious abnormality
(44%), if the couple are not married or in a stable relationship (14%) or if the couple
cannot afford another child (11%)
• In relation to abortifacients, 13% of respondents were aware of herbs or medications
that can be taken to induce an abortion. When they were questioned about the
legality of using abortifacients in Ireland, 75% thought the practice was illegal, 6%
thought it was legal and 19% were unsure.
• Of the 13% of adults, men and women, who were aware of abortifacients (n=371),
seven adults reported they or their partner had used these types of medication or
herbs in Ireland."

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Publications/corporate/ICCP2010.pdf

So only 9% are anti-abortion in all circumstances. It seems this profoundly vocal minority has taken control of the conversation, it needs to be taken back off them as soon as possible.

Ghost Buster · 14-11-2012 08:52PM

keano_afc wrote: »

And thats been proved has it? Or is it just something you've read in this thread or picked up in a newspaper report?

I just think its wrong to jump to conclusions on what happened in relation to what was or wasn't said in this case.

Where else do you get your information from?
Other than being there personally when the doctor spoke what do you deem acceptable?

billybudd · 14-11-2012 08:53PM

Hippies! wrote: »

Somewhere in the middle east right now there's a guy reading this on a news website and he's saying..."those barbaric backward westerners, hey johnny, johnny...look at this, they said "this is a catholic country" and let her die...i'm at a loss for words"

Probably not but you get the idea.

As in we're always thinking that we're great and so civilised and like, you know this doesn't eh display that.

So yea.

FFS, every country has its own problems and own tragedies and its own appalling backward ways and ditto for religion.

Ireland does not own tragedy and religious attrocities.

Amazing so called hippies are so quick to blame.

Ghost Buster · 14-11-2012 08:53PM

saspeir wrote: »

So you wouldn't believe the husband of this lady?

The interview was recorded and shown on C4 news this evening. He quoted what they were told by medics in response to numerous requests for a termination by Savita.

Its dem trendy atheist journalist type persecuting de catalicks agin!!!!!

saspeir · 14-11-2012 08:54PM

vetinari wrote: »

It's a bit ridiculous to blame the catholic church. Ireland is now a secular country and hiding behind the catholic argument to avoid passing legislation is cowardly.

Ireland is secular!?

I couldn't become a Judge in this country because I would have to make an oath that only a Christian could.

Prayers are said every morning in the Dáil.

Secular organisations have to fight for representation to governments even though they are the 2nd biggest group in this country.

When elected officials reflect the secular numbers on the ground and State and church are totally separated, only then will Ireland be secular!

billybudd · 14-11-2012 08:56PM

saspeir wrote: »

http://www.channel4.com/news/woman-dies-in-ireland-after-abortion-refused

Read this. Particularly the quote about how medics referred to Ireland being a "Catholic Country"!

A name check, so what? one doctors words means its true? its not, back up your statement or retract it.

saspeir · 14-11-2012 08:57PM

billybudd wrote: »

A name check, so what? one doctors words means its true? its not, back up your statement or retract it.

Did you drop your morals when you picked up the Bible?

billybudd · 14-11-2012 08:59PM

saspeir wrote: »

Did you drop your morals when you picked up the Bible?

My morals like anyone else can be blurry at times, i have read the bible but i am not religious in any way, shape or form.

Blaming the CC is easy, doesnt go to the root and wont fix the problem, now be a decent person and either link were its the CC fault or retract the statement.

Tragedy · 14-11-2012 09:02PM

poeticseraphim wrote: »

JESUS...YES MANY

A January 2010 Irish Examiner/RedC poll about abortion in Ireland found that 60% felt abortion should be legalised, and 10% had been in a relationship in which an abortion had taken place.

A January 2010 opinion|poll conducted by Millward Brown Landsdown for the Pro Life Campaign found 70% of people questioned favored constitutional protection for the unborn under circumstances where intervention to save the mother's life was legal.

SO A PRO LIFE OPINION POLL FOUND THAT 70% of people question the favoured the unborn child. STILL THINK IT IS BIAS????

Referenda in 1992 and in 2002 rejected proposals to further restrict access to abortion. No referendum has ever been held to offer Irish people the opportunity to make access to abortion less restrictive; opinion polls, however, consistently indicate public support for less restrictive abortion regulation.

There are multitudinous polls i can show you...

A 2004 Crisis Pregnancy Agency study found that 90% of 18-45 year olds support abortion in certain circumstances, with 51% stating that women should always have to right to choose an abortion.That was eight years ago.

That red C poll was in 2010.

And you cannot claim bias in the case of the Millward Brown Landsdown for the Pro Life Campaign that foun 70 % of people disagree with the rights of the unborn as they stand.

That red C poll was in 2010. It found two years ago 60% of people favoured legalizing abortion.

I am surprised you even asked to be honest. It is like you live in a different country.

Did you even read my post before writing a ridiculous essay countering points I didn't make?

You stated that Ireland in general favours abortion (not legislating for the X case, or abortion where a mother's life is at risk).

The opinion polls you quote are not about general abortion, they are about when a mother's life is at risk.

So yes, I do think you're biased as you're quite clearly lying about a poll to support your unfounded point of view.

PS: Please keep your replies shorter, less emotive and to the point, it isn't pleasant wading through your reams of nonsense.
PPS: I never claimed bias yet half your extraordinarily long post is about my claiming bias?

DEFTLEFTHAND · 14-11-2012 09:03PM

It's a shame that this has to descend into the usual Catholic bashing furore that AH is famed for. We don't know the full facts of this case it's wrong to jump to conclusions, like what has being pointed out already if the mother's life is in danger the law permits an abortion to take place. James Reilly stated today that sometimes the safest route with a miscarriage is to allow it to occur naturally, something obviously went very wrong here.

Tragedy · 14-11-2012 09:07PM

jill_valentine wrote: »

If the debate had been hashed out sooner, she would not be dead.

It's awesome that you know that. How did you get an advance copy of the autopsy report/inquiry?

This is not a philosophical issue, it's not something that exists only in arguments and on paper. As we've seen in the most stark possible terms, for the women of Ireland, it's potentially very literally a matter of life and death.

It's awesome that you know that. How did you get an advance copy of the autopsy report/inquiry?

I can think of no possible reaction that would be more insulting to this woman than meekly consenting silence in the face of the completely avoidable situation that killed her.

It's awesome that you know that. How did you get an advance copy of the autopsy report/inquiry?

Also, you can speak with the dead? I have some people I'd like you to get in touch with, ta.

andrewdeerpark · 14-11-2012 09:07PM

Here's the staff directory its safe to assume it was one of the below who would not authorize the abortion:

http://www.guh.hse.ie/Clinics/

who the fug · 14-11-2012 09:09PM

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Here's the staff directory its safe to assume it was one of the below who would not authorize the abortion:

Delete that list these are people to look at

MagicSean · 14-11-2012 09:10PM

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Here's the staff directory its safe to assume it was one of the below who would not authorize the abortion:

http://www.guh.hse.ie/Clinics/

So?

donfers · 14-11-2012 09:14PM

Zulu wrote: »

Aside for the usual knee-jerk (stressing "jerk") reactionary bs, and setting aside the trite "pro-life are scum" for one minute...

Does the current law not allow for the protection of the mother when there's a real risk to her life? At least that was my understanding. Based on that understanding, it appears that a tragic mistake was made here.

...now going back to the bs & trite slurs. Personally, I'm against abortion "on demand". Clearly that wasn't the case here; this should never have happened. I think most people can agree that only a very fundamentalist viewpoint (or troll) would think otherwise.

Finally, and frankly, any band-wagon campaigners jumping onto this case to push their own agenda, or to have a cheap pop at the majority of the counter-argument, should be very, very ashamed of themselves.

one of the few sensible posts i've read on this emotionally charged issue and sums things up about right IMO

andrewdeerpark · 14-11-2012 09:15PM

MagicSean wrote: »

So?

If Galway hospital handled the situation with "this is a catholic country" and left the woman die then manslaughter charges should be made against the consultant concerned that is the actions of a religious zealot, no better than the Taliban.

Both individuals asked several times for a termination.

keano_afc · 14-11-2012 09:19PM

Zulu wrote: »

Aside for the usual knee-jerk (stressing "jerk") reactionary bs, and setting aside the trite "pro-life are scum" for one minute...

Does the current law not allow for the protection of the mother when there's a real risk to her life? At least that was my understanding. Based on that understanding, it appears that a tragic mistake was made here.

...now going back to the bs & trite slurs. Personally, I'm against abortion "on demand". Clearly that wasn't the case here; this should never have happened. I think most people can agree that only a very fundamentalist viewpoint (or troll) would think otherwise.

Finally, and frankly, any band-wagon campaigners jumping onto this case to push their own agenda, or to have a cheap pop at the majority of the counter-argument, should be very, very ashamed of themselves.

That's a great post, I agree with every word.

mac.in · 14-11-2012 09:22PM

K-9 wrote: »

Well the law says the mothers life must be at risk, it would appear the consultant did not think it was initially so his hands were tied. If her life is not at significant risk medical or scientific knowledge is irrelevant, legally.

Well, when the mother complained of abdominal pain, she was diagnosed of miscarriage. Later she suffered for 2 and 1/2 days with abdominal pain with out any treatment. So does her abdominal pain doesn't warrant any attention?

Tasden · 14-11-2012 09:24PM

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

If Galway hospital handled the situation with "this is a catholic country" and left the woman die then manslaughter charges should be made against the consultant concerned that is the actions of a religious zealot, no better than the Taliban.

Both individuals asked several times for a termination.

Was it not a case of the consultant making a rational medical judgement that her life was not then at risk and as a result of current legislation his hands were tied on the issue. And in explaining his situation he told her that it is due to Ireland being a catholic country etc.?

ilovesleep · 14-11-2012 09:25PM

billybudd wrote: »

My morals like anyone else can be blurry at times, i have read the bible but i am not religious in any way, shape or form.

Blaming the CC is easy, doesnt go to the root and wont fix the problem, now be a decent person and either link were its the CC fault or retract the statement.

The CC are partly to blame and although interest in the CC is dwindling, many people still look up to the CC and CC still has an influence of sorts. They impose their views on others and some people lap it up.
(I'm guessing a lot of these people who still look up to the CC are those of the grey vote. And that's where politics plays a part. A politician willing to legalise abortion could lose many votes).

Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

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