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Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

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  • #302
    poeticseraphim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 930 ✭✭✭poeticseraphim


    otto_26 wrote: »
    I know its not illegal for a Doctor to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother... So I know we are not talking about laws that killed her....


    It is the culture of fear in the HSE because the legislation is unclear and lacking the laws DID KILL HER.
    It is the legislation...it is lacking...it is not there ..'they have not gotten round to it'


  • #303
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,992 ✭✭✭✭gozunda



    “The doctor told us the cervix was fully dilated, amniotic fluid was leaking and unfortunately the baby wouldn’t survive.” The doctor, he says, said it should be over in a few hours. There followed three days, he says, of the foetal heartbeat being checked several times a day.

    “Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said, ‘As long as there is a foetalheartbeat we can’t do anything’.“Again on Tuesday morning, the ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita [aHindu] said: ‘I am neither Irish nor Catholic’ but they said there was nothing they could
    do.
    otto_26 wrote: »
    The 1992 High court decision dictate that if the mother's life is at risk an abortion is allowed without any malpractice or illegality.

    Section 21 of the Medical Council guidelines state:
    21.1 Abortion is illegal in Ireland except where there is a real and substantial risk to the life (as distinct from the health) of the mother.
    Rascasse wrote: »
    ... there was a conference held two months ago by a group of 140 pro-life medical staff (though the claimed “All organisers were involved in their professional capacity and were not here to represent any pro-life position,”) that agreed the "Dublin declaration".

    ...The organiser was Eamon O’Dwyer, Professor Emeritus of Gynaecology & Obstetrics at N.U.I., Galway.(retired)

    ...Also in attendance was Dr John Monaghan, a clinical teacher at Portiuncula Hospital, Ballinasloe (also part of NUIG)

    ...(Oh, and Dr Eoghan de Faoite, he of Youth Defence, was also at the conference)

    From the Irish Times - The Dublin Declaration:
    AN INTERNATIONAL symposium on maternal healthcare in Dublin at the weekend has concluded that abortion is never medically necessary to save the life of a mother.

    Eamon O’Dwyer, professor emeritus of obstetrics and gynaecology at NUI Galway and a conference organiser, said its outcome would provide “clarity and confirmation” to doctors and legislators dealing with these issues.

    The symposium was organised by the Committee for Excellence in Maternal Healthcare, chaired by Prof O’Dwyer. Other members of the committee include Dr John Monaghan, Dr John Greene and palliative care nurse specialist Sinéad Dennehy


    University Hospital Galway is well known to have an extreme catholic bias in both its management and policies. The inaction taken by the consultant in this case is similar to the previous use of the horendous procedure of Symphysiotomy in irish hospitals which involved permanently widening the pelvis by surgically dividing the point where the pubic bones come together. This procedure was encouraged by Catholic obstetricians as a birth-facilitating alternative to caesarean section, as it was believed that women facing repeated caesareans for future births might be tempted to use contraception.

    The sooner that religion and in this countries case "Catholicism" is removed from medical care the better for all. It is truely tragic that patients cannot rely on the professional ethics of medical staff or even the law as it stands and yet remain at risk from medievel beliefs held my misogynists concerning the place of women

    This doctor should be struck off immediatly by the medical council and sued by the deads womans family.


  • #304
    HeyThereDeliah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 967 ✭✭✭HeyThereDeliah


    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    Not to mention our Dáil is only 15% made up of women.....so our legislative body is not even gender balanced to ensure women have a say on this and other issues.

    So not only does the state say it holds dominion over individual women's bodies it also has only men making these decisions.


    We don't even get a 50 /50 balance in the debate ..it is CRAZY.

    Why should men ..(and pretty misogynistic dishonest and corrupt men at that) decide or legislate this without female balance???


    It is a disgrace.

    If women do not put themselves forward for election it's no ones fault, you cannot put the blame on men.


  • #305
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    upstairs for coffee wrote: »
    @ Fuinseog

    It is your beliefs that helped to kill this woman. Don't hide behind your 2000 old parchment that you need to tell right from wrong. Your beliefs did this and you have the audacity to get on a moral horse?

    Appalling.

    the majority of Irish people still consider abortion wrong, murder in fact. the pro abortion lobby will have to push more sob stories to gather support. It did not work after the x case.

    why blame the catholic church when we as a people voted against abortion. we are all big boys and girls. the church will say what they want but have no control over what we put on the ballot paper.


  • #306
    upstairs for coffee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 553 ✭✭✭upstairs for coffee


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    will have to push more sob stories to gather support.

    I won't engage anymore with you other than to say, the "sob stories" as you so crudely put it effect real people, real lives. You are behind your computer screen now preaching about how wrong and immoral it is to have an abortion, your beliefs have helped kill this innocent woman and now you discard here ordeal, her pain, her suffering and that of her family as merely a "sob story".

    That tells me so much about you as a person. I pity you.


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  • #307
    YeatsCounty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭YeatsCounty


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    doctor wanting to save lives. thats terrible.

    foetus had a hard beat ergo it was human life.

    You mean the foetus that was being miscarried and had no chance of survival outside the womb? There was no life saving where that foetus was concerned, it could not be saved. Simple as that.


  • #308
    HeyThereDeliah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 967 ✭✭✭HeyThereDeliah


    Dodge wrote: »
    I can only imagine the outrage In Ireland if an Irish woman died in Saudi Arabie (eg) due to religious law

    If you know the laws of the country and do not agree with them then don't live there. You cannot expect any country will change their laws to suit one person.

    Ireland is not the only country with stupid laws that we all have to live with.


  • #309
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    YeatsCounty wrote: »
    You mean the foetus that was being miscarried and had no chance of survival outside the womb? There was no life saving where that foetus was concerned, it could not be saved. Simple as that.
    And seeing as it was inevitable that this baby was going to die, not performing the d+c and just waiting for it to die, not only killed the mother, but also prolonged the suffering of that poor baby too.


  • #310
    FrogMarch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 157 ✭✭FrogMarch


    upstairs for coffee wrote: »
    You are behind your computer screen now preaching about how wrong and immoral it is to have an abortion

    While so many others are behind their computer screens are using this poor woman and her child to preach pro-choice or militant feminist views.

    Until the facts of this case are revealed in full, almost every single person on this thread is guilty of dishonouring this woman by getting on their soapbox for a good old, self-righteous rant. Shame on you.


  • #311
    jester77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭jester77


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    doctor wanting to save lives. thats terrible.

    foetus had a hard beat ergo it was human life.

    It had no chance of survival and be denying the poor woman immediate treatment they facilitated in her death. I don't know if you are trolling or trying to be belligerent in your beliefs, but you obviously have no compassion here for human life which is very un-Christian.


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  • #312
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    the majority of Irish people still consider abortion wrong, murder in fact. the pro abortion lobby will have to push more sob stories to gather support. It did not work after the x case.
    why blame the catholic church when we as a people voted against abortion. we are all big boys and girls. the church will say what they want but have no control over what we put on the ballot paper.
    sob story - wow, you're really stooping to amazing levels to defend your cause.
    HeyThereDeliah wrote: »
    If you know the laws of the country and do not agree with them then don't live there. You cannot expect any country will change their laws to suit one person.

    Ireland is not the only country with stupid laws that we all have to live with.
    One person? Yeh don't protest anything, just don't live there; that's a great strategy.


  • #313
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    HeyThereDeliah wrote: »
    If you know the laws of the country and do not agree with them then don't live there. You cannot expect any country will change their laws to suit one person.

    Ireland is not the only country with stupid laws that we all have to live with.

    well you can in ireland. no alcohol for sale on Good friday. thats the law. rubgy match organised in Limerick for Good Friday knowing full well that Irish have drink at a match. do the authorities adhere to the law or let them drink?

    I am sure the doctors did everything to save human lives as opposed to the cold hearted 'we are catholics and can do nothing as it is a catholic country' statement that is being attributed to them.


  • #314
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Aside for the usual knee-jerk (stressing "jerk") reactionary bs, and setting aside the trite "pro-life are scum" for one minute...

    Does the current law not allow for the protection of the mother when there's a real risk to her life? At least that was my understanding. Based on that understanding, it appears that a tragic mistake was made here.

    ...now going back to the bs & trite slurs. Personally, I'm against abortion "on demand". Clearly that wasn't the case here; this should never have happened. I think most people can agree that only a very fundamentalist viewpoint (or troll) would think otherwise.


    Finally, and frankly, any band-wagon campaigners jumping onto this case to push their own agenda, or to have a cheap pop at the majority of the counter-argument, should be very, very ashamed of themselves.


  • #315
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    FrogMarch wrote: »
    While so many others are behind their computer screens are using this poor woman and her child to preach pro-choice or militant feminist views.

    Until the facts of this case are revealed in full, almost every single person on this thread is guilty of dishonouring this woman by getting on their soapbox for a good old, self-righteous rant. Shame on you.
    And you're using it to push your anti militant feminist agenda, so... not much different.


  • #316
    HeyThereDeliah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 967 ✭✭✭HeyThereDeliah


    Madam_X wrote: »

    One person? Yeh don't protest anything, just don't live there; that's a great strategy.

    The world is a big place, every country has its own laws, don't go to another country expecting the law to be in your favour when you know it won't.

    As for this lady she should not have been left to die.

    My point was only in response to the comparison to an irish woman and Saudi Arabia.


  • #317
    HalloweenJack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,430 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    Fuinseog wrote:
    the majority of Irish people still consider abortion wrong, murder in fact. the pro abortion lobby will have to push more sob stories to gather support. It did not work after the x case.

    why blame the catholic church when we as a people voted against abortion. we are all big boys and girls. the church will say what they want but have no control over what we put on the ballot paper.
    29 years ago.

    I have never had the opportunity to vote on the issue of abortion, nor have any of my peers. People as old as 46 have never had the opportunity to vote on the issues of abortion. No one in the 18-46 age group has ever had the chance in their lifetime to vote on the issue. How big is that demographic of Irish society?

    Can you still honestly say that it has been clearly proven that the majority of Irish people disapprove of abortion, when a large percentage have never had the opportunity to voice their opinion at the ballot box?

    Also, the fact that in that time two referendums which would have strengthened the ban on abortion were defeated and that two were passed which allow for travelling for an abortion and for accessing information regarding abortion suggests that the attitude isn't as strong as you may think.

    It is not a black and white area. I can still imagine that a ban on elective abortion would be voted for in this country but we need to legislate and have a clear law which says that abortion is legal if it puts the life of the mother at risk.


  • #318
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,992 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    doctor wanting to save lives. thats terrible.

    foetus had a hard beat ergo it was human life.


    What about the mothers 'life' or is that an issue that you concern yourself with

    You use THIS to justify the murder of a woman?? You are truely barbaric

    The foetus was NOT viable therefore could NOT be saved

    The Doctor should be guilty of murder alright - the murder of the mother.


  • #319
    intellectual dosser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,851 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    HalloweenJack wrote: »
    29 years ago.

    I have never had the opportunity to vote on the issue of abortion, nor have any of my peers. People as old as 46 have never had the opportunity to vote on the issues of abortion. No one in the 18-46 age group has ever had the chance in their lifetime to vote on the issue. How big is that demographic of Irish society?

    Can you still honestly say that it has been clearly proven that the majority of Irish people disapprove of abortion, when a large percentage have never had the opportunity to voice their opinion at the ballot box?

    Also, the fact that in that time two referendums which would have strengthened the ban on abortion were defeated in that time and that two were passed which allow for travelling for an abortion and for accessing information regarding abortion suggests that the attitude isn't as strong as you may think.

    It is not a black and white area and I can still imagine that a ban on elective abortion would be voted for in this country but we need to clearly legislate on having a clear law which says that abortion is legal if it puts the life of the mother at risk.

    Great post.

    Basically the overwhelming majority of the population of a child bearing age haven't had their say.


  • #320
    FrogMarch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 157 ✭✭FrogMarch


    Madam_X wrote: »
    And you're using it to push your anti militant feminist agenda, so... not much different.

    Where did I do that?


  • #321
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Also, people beating the "murder" drum should take a step back from the keyboards and have a little think.

    Real doctors & nurses were involved in this case, accusing them of "murder" is pretty fu(king sad.
    Cop yourselves on. FFS.

    It's times like this that boards never fails to disappoint. :(


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  • #322
    tony81
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭tony81


    flynnlives wrote: »

    your some sick ****

    .

    Learn to spell, then I might read your posts.


  • #323
    miss no stars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    Couldn't read the whole thread as the ignorance being displayed in it was getting to me.
    muppetkiller wrote: »
    Mmmm I think I'm going to go with whatever the Doctor at the time decided was best for the Patient and unborn child rather than reading the facts from the Media.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I highly doubt anyone would refuse an abortion on moral grounds if there was a clear danger to the mother's life.
    af_thefragile wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure any doctor wouldn't just stand there and let the mother die in the very faint chance of saving a fetus which if very premature wouldn't have a high chance of survival anyway.
    Gbear wrote: »
    I find it hard to believe that a doctor would refuse to carry out an abortion when there was clear danger to the mother.
    K-9 wrote: »
    That isn't really the issue, if the consultant had said there was no chance of the baby surviving he should have agreed to her wishes and performed an "abortion".

    See this:
    seenitall wrote: »
    Why would you highly doubt that? Whatever about their morality, whoever refused to perform an abortion in this case was fully within and following the letter of the law of this country. Cases such as these still haven't been legislated for - it's a very grey area any doctor attempting this would be entering.

    I can only fervently hope that this case will have legs now and exert sway for the legislation to finally come through.

    How come so many folks on this thread are ignorant of these facts...


    Basically, there'd be nothing in the law to say that the doctor COULD perform the termination. Maybe they were saying "It's a catholic country that won't legislate for this". Because it is. Pro-fcuking-lifers. I don't give a sh!t what anyone's view on elective termination is, medically necessary is medically necessary, yet the doctor COULD NOT carry it out due to being strangled by the theocracy in which we live. :mad:


  • #324
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Zulu wrote: »
    Aside for the usual knee-jerk (stressing "jerk") reactionary bs, and setting aside the trite "pro-life are scum" for one minute...

    Does the current law not allow for the protection of the mother when there's a real risk to her life? At least that was my understanding. Based on that understanding, it appears that a tragic mistake was made here.

    My understanding is that the constitution allows for it where the life of the mother is at risk, but it has never been legislated for. Probably because politicians are frightened to go near the issue, and after the poisonous debates of the early 1990s, the public were happy to let the issue rest. Cowardice all round really.


  • #325
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    FrogMarch wrote: »
    While so many others are behind their computer screens are using this poor woman and her child to preach pro-choice or militant feminist views.

    Until the facts of this case are revealed in full, almost every single person on this thread is guilty of dishonouring this woman by getting on their soapbox for a good old, self-righteous rant. Shame on you.

    Yup yup yup. Read about this briefly in the Times this morning and said to myself, I betcha anything if I go onto boards now (against my better judgement) the pro abortion lobby will be straight onto the bandwagon feigning sorrow and using this poor woman to promote their own agenda (which usually involves complete access to abortion for any reason at any time). Things like this happen all the time and people dont get worked up about it. Why? Because if it happens in a developing country it cannot be used as a stick to beat pro lifers with.

    I think the story is despicable, of course it should not have happened. The womans life was in danger, she should have been allowed an abortion. But see the crux is...when her life is in danger.


  • #326
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    miss no stars wrote: »
    ... Pro-fcuking-lifers. I don't give a sh!t what anyone's view on elective termination is, medically necessary is medically necessary, yet the doctor COULD NOT carry it out due to being strangled by the theocracy in which we live. :mad:
    :rolleyes:

    Unhitch "abortion on demand" leaving only medically necessary abortion, and everyone (save a tiny minority) agrees. But there's an unwillingness to do that, isn't there.


  • #327
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    the majority of Irish people still consider abortion wrong, murder in fact. the pro abortion lobby will have to push more sob stories to gather support. It did not work after the x case.

    why blame the catholic church when we as a people voted against abortion. we are all big boys and girls. the church will say what they want but have no control over what we put on the ballot paper.
    Actually following the x case people did vote for abortion , by defeating another anti-choice referndum and opting to go with the X Case decision of Supreme court.
    Your reference to this womans death as "a sob story" is despicable beyond belief!


  • #328
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Email your tds, ring them, turn up at thier clinics, go to the vigil or the protests.

    Our sniveling elected TDs have done nothing for the last 20 years to put legislation place.

    They were quick enough to re write the data protection law so they can stick us with the household tax, and for the shíte Sean Sherlock said we needed which we didn't and to out law head shops in Harneys day but they sat on their hands for 20 years.

    IF you want this to never happen again and to be sure it doesn't happen to you or the women in your live you care about, tell them to legislate for the X Case.


  • #329
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    gozunda wrote: »
    What about the mothers 'life' or is that an issue that you concern yourself with

    You use THIS to justify the murder of a woman?? You are truely barbaric

    The foetus was NOT viable therefore could NOT be saved

    The Doctor should be guilty of murder alright - the murder of the mother.

    Er...you have to be tried to be found guilty of murder. Stop being so hysterical please.


  • #330
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    I'm pro-choice but if a referendum decided against abortion id accept that. However i think at the very minimum every country should allow abortion for cases like this where the mothers life is at risk or when a woman has been impregnated through rape.

    Unfortunately it will have taken the death of this woman to finally get the government to get up off their arses and legislate for this.


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  • #331
    FrogMarch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 157 ✭✭FrogMarch


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Yup yup yup. Read about this briefly in the Times this morning and said to myself, I betcha anything if I go onto boards now (against my better judgement) the pro abortion lobby will be straight onto the bandwagon feigning sorrow and using this poor woman to promote their own agenda (which usually involves complete access to abortion for any reason at any time). Things like this happen all the time and people dont get worked up about it. Why? Because if it happens in a developing country it cannot be used as a stick to beat pro lifers with.

    I think the story is despicable, of course it should not have happened. The womans life was in danger, she should have been allowed an abortion. But see the crux is...when her life is in danger.

    Absolutely. Is it too much to ask to actually wait so that we can find out what actually happened here? The media hysteria is giving too many idiots a soapbox to air their views.


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