Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

KKkitty · 14-11-2012 01:28AM

Just when you'd think the stronghold the Catholic Church had on this country was waning it goes backwards. Absolutely disgraceful that this poor woman had to die because of a procedure that's still deemed illegal in this country.

flynnlives · 14-11-2012 01:28AM

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html

Speaking from Belgaum in the Karnataka region of southwest India, Mr Halappanavar said an internal examination was performed when she first presented.

“The doctor told us the cervix was fully dilated, amniotic fluid was leaking and unfortunately the baby wouldn’t survive.” The doctor, he says, said it should be over in a few hours. There followed three days, he says, of the foetal heartbeat being checked several times a day.

“Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said, ‘As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can’t do anything’.

“Again on Tuesday morning, the ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita [a Hindu] said: ‘I am neither Irish nor Catholic’ but they said there was nothing they could do.

“That evening she developed shakes and shivering and she was vomiting. She went to use the toilet and she collapsed. There were big alarms and a doctor took bloods and started her on antibiotics.

“The next morning I said she was so sick and asked again that they just end it, but they said they couldn’t.”

Critically ill

At lunchtime the foetal heart had stopped and Ms Halappanavar was brought to theatre to have the womb contents removed. “When she came out she was talking okay but she was very sick. That’s the last time I spoke to her.”

At 11 pm he got a call from the hospital. “They said they were shifting her to intensive care. Her heart and pulse were low, her temperature was high. She was sedated and critical but stable. She stayed stable on Friday but by 7pm on Saturday they said her heart, kidneys and liver weren’t functioning. She was critically ill. That night, we lost her.”

Mr Halappanavar took his wife’s body home on Thursday, November 1st, where she was cremated and laid to rest on November 3rd.

B.A._Baracus · 14-11-2012 01:29AM

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Wind up/photoshop? Can't see any other confirmation of this

mackg wrote: »

Thread on politics.ie too but that doesn't prove much. Anyone confirm and supply some details?

You got to love boards.ie dont you?
A person posts a story along with a screen shot of a newspaper, also states it was mentioned on a popular tv3 programe tonight .... Only to get met with accusations and proof of validation required

But yet the amount of "this happened to me today" threads in after hours are taken as fact :rolleyes:

murphzor · 14-11-2012 01:29AM

No worries lads, we can't be upsetting the baby Jesus.

af_thefragile · 14-11-2012 01:29AM

I'm pretty sure any doctor wouldn't just stand there and let the mother die in the very faint chance of saving a fetus which if very premature wouldn't have a high chance of survival anyway.

Hence why I'm skeptical about the way the story is presented. Sounds more like pro-choice propaganda than a tragedy (which no doubt it is).

14-11-2012 01:31AM

Waiting until I can read the article in the newspaper before I pass judgement, but if what is said is true, then surely that would be grounds for dismissal and possible prosecution? Obviously the latter might not be true, but surely the former.

super_furry · 14-11-2012 01:31AM

Just more suffering in Ireland that can be laid at the door of the Catholic Church.

Gbear · 14-11-2012 01:32AM

I find it hard to believe that a doctor would refuse to carry out an abortion when there was clear danger to the mother.

Whatever bureaucracy or fear of professional censure would surely be overwhelmingly trumped by the most basic duty of a doctor to their patient?

Something is very clearly amiss here. The lack of relevant legislation is neither an excuse nor an explanation as to how a doctor could act this way.

Jev/N · 14-11-2012 01:33AM

irishfeen wrote: »

This is a disgusting and tragic story, if it turns out to be true the doctor who made the decision should be charged with manslaughter.

IIRC the same would have been argued if they had carried out the procedure and that would have created an alternative sh*tstorm.

However, in that instance, the poor woman would at least still be alive.

K-9 · 14-11-2012 01:35AM

af_thefragile wrote: »

I'm pretty sure any doctor wouldn't just stand there and let the mother die in the very faint chance of saving a fetus which if very premature wouldn't have a high chance of survival anyway.

Hence why I'm skeptical about the way the story is presented. Sounds more like pro-choice propaganda than a tragedy (which no doubt it is).

That isn't really the issue, if the consultant had said there was no chance of the baby surviving he should have agreed to her wishes and performed an "abortion".

Cookie_Monster · 14-11-2012 01:36AM

Gbear wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that a doctor would refuse to carry out an abortion when there was clear danger to the mother.

depends on what he valued more, his nutjob religious belief or his Hippocratic oath.

Berlin at night · 14-11-2012 01:36AM

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html

Here's the enlarged version to read.

14-11-2012 01:36AM

Just read the article. So she asked for the termination but was refused on the grounds that it's a Catholic country.

Absolutely disgusting.

Hospitals and any hospital staff should not have any pro-life or pro-choice agendas and should focus solely on what is right for the patient regardless of personal feelings.

Stheno · 14-11-2012 01:36AM

af_thefragile wrote: »

I'm pretty sure any doctor wouldn't just stand there and let the mother die in the very faint chance of saving a fetus which if very premature wouldn't have a high chance of survival anyway.

Hence why I'm skeptical about the way the story is presented. Sounds more like pro-choice propaganda than a tragedy (which no doubt it is).

It's all over the times site now.

You've the link above.

Then

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1114/1224326573964.html

And the pre release already quoted

irishfeen · 14-11-2012 01:36AM

Jev/N wrote: »

IIRC the same would have been argued if they had carried out the procedure and that would have created an alternative sh*tstorm.

However, in that instance, the poor woman would at least still be alive.

Surely if a termination had taken place it would have been a private matter between a doctor and the patient and would never have came to light.... I would be hoping anyway.

mackg · 14-11-2012 01:37AM

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

You got to love boards.ie dont you?
A person posts a story along with a screen shot of a newspaper, also states it was mentioned on a popular tv3 programe tonight .... Only to get met with accusations and proof of validation required

But yet the amount of "this happened to me today" threads in after hours are taken as fact :rolleyes:

Bit of a difference between "this happened to me today" and a major news story don't you think? Plus I was the one that mentioned it was on VB but was looking for someone else to confirm it which they did. Don't let that get in the way of an irrelevant whinge though.

af_thefragile · 14-11-2012 01:37AM

K-9 wrote: »

I'd be quite pro life and have no problem in admitting there are serious issues in Irish hospitals with cases like this and indeed other scenarios where there is no hope for the foetus. Usually isn't really good enough in cases like this womans.

But such scenarios are never as black and white. Its not that if the fetus was removed early she wouldn't have ended up getting an infection and septicaemia. There are many risks and complications associated with miscarriage. There might be some issue of poor protocols and guidelines for acting in such situations which is more of an issue for the HSE to deal with to bring in proper guidelines for when such a situation arises.

What I'm trying to say is don't make it a issue that pro-choicers use as propaganda to beat up the pro-lifers and the catholic church with.

Also many doctors in Ireland are fairly lenient towards abortions. They won't do it themselves but if someone really needs it, they'll happily refer them to a hospital in UK where they can get it done. The only issue might be towards implementing proper guidelines for emergencies as such.

admiralofthefleet · 14-11-2012 01:38AM

we really have to work as hard as possible to dismantle the hold that the catholic cult of pure and utter evil has over this country

Berlin at night · 14-11-2012 01:38AM

Unreal, a tragedy like this could have been avoided if the church kept its nose out medical practice. I'm so glad I'm an athiest.

TheBegotten · 14-11-2012 01:40AM

First, condolences to her family. Horrible thing to happen, abortion or none.
Second, I'm suspicious. I'm fairly pro-choice, and this just seems very sensationalist to me. The media have a way of exaggerating things, so I think its best at this stage to wait for the official report, rather than bayonet charging the entire pro-life lobby.
They're a bunch of gits if this IS all its being made out to be though.

EDIT: Although that Times article seems to point the finger more at the doctors than the HSE/Government...I wouldn't think "It's a Catholic country" would be grounds for a breaking of the Hippocratic Oath.

14-11-2012 01:40AM

af_thefragile wrote: »

Also many doctors in Ireland are fairly lenient towards abortions. They won't do it themselves but if someone really needs it, they'll happily refer them to a hospital in UK where they can get it done. The only issue might be towards implementing proper guidelines for emergencies as such.

Can you even do that? I remember there was a story a few years ago about a girl, who was possibly 17 at the time, who was pregnant and they discovered that the baby would effectively be born brain-dead with no chance of a proper life. She wanted to go to the UK to get an abortion done, but the government found out and banned her from doing so and she was forced to deliver the baby.

seenitall · 14-11-2012 01:40AM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

It's hard to comment on what is just a headline so i'll keep it short. I highly doubt anyone would refuse an abortion on moral grounds if there was a clear danger to the mother's life. It's not something that needs to be mused on or needs debate. If nothing can be done to save the mother other than an abortion, it's unfortunate but perfectly warranted. Even the most diehard anti-abortionist would probably agree with that. There's no point trying to keep up the tiny chance of survival that the child has when the mother is facing something like septicaemia.

Why would you highly doubt that? Whatever about their morality, whoever refused to perform an abortion in this case was fully within and following the letter of the law of this country. Cases such as these still haven't been legislated for - it's a very grey area any doctor attempting this would be entering.

I can only fervently hope that this case will have legs now and exert sway for the legislation to finally come through.

How come so many folks on this thread are ignorant of these facts...

Pilotdude5 · 14-11-2012 01:41AM

flynnlives wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html

“this is a Catholic country”.

She spent a further 2½ days “in agony” until the foetal heartbeat stopped.

If this quote is true they should be jailed

af_thefragile · 14-11-2012 01:41AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you even do that? I remember there was a story a few years ago about a girl, who was possibly 17 at the time, who was pregnant and they discovered that the baby would effectively be born brain-dead with no chance of a proper life. She wanted to go to the UK to get an abortion done, but the government found out and banned her from doing so and she was forced to deliver the baby.

Its done all the time. Maybe things changed since that story...

Gbear · 14-11-2012 01:41AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

depends on what he valued more, his nutjob religious belief or his Hippocratic oath.

I sincerely hope that is the case.

Otherwise, if it really happened as appeared in the articles quoted, he showed a level of sociopathic self-interest that disgraces him not only as a doctor but as a person.

14-11-2012 01:42AM

af_thefragile wrote: »

Its done all the time. Maybe things changed since that story...

It might have had something to do with the fact she was 17, I'm not sure. Trying to get the story from memory, so some of the details could be wrong.

deblacker · 14-11-2012 01:42AM

cournioni wrote: »

I wonder will they class this as murder like they do with their pro life posters.

We should make a poster and put it at the bus stop like theirs.

awec · 14-11-2012 01:42AM

The influence that Catholicism has in this country is scary.

Duiske · 14-11-2012 01:43AM

K-9 wrote: »

If she was told she couldn't have an abortion because Ireland is Catholic, should be instant dismissal.

It should be instant arrest, and hopefully a prosecution for manslaughter.

Stheno · 14-11-2012 01:43AM

af_thefragile wrote: »

But such scenarios are never as black and white. Its not that if the fetus was removed early she wouldn't have ended up getting an infection and septicaemia. There are many risks and complications associated with miscarriage. There might be some issue of poor protocols and guidelines for acting in such situations which is more of an issue for the HSE to deal with to bring in proper guidelines for when such a situation arises.

What I'm trying to say is don't make it a issue that pro-choicers use as propaganda to beat up the pro-lifers and the catholic church with.

Also many doctors in Ireland are fairly lenient towards abortions. They won't do it themselves but if someone really needs it, they'll happily refer them to a hospital in UK where they can get it done. The only issue might be towards implementing proper guidelines for emergencies as such.

So in the midst of a miscarriage, when a simple procedure that could have saved this woman's life could have been performed the woman should have been referred to the UK?

The problem is not lack of procedures in the HSE, it's the lack of clarity regarding any abortion as a result of the lack of legislation we have in the area.

Doctors have adopted a blanket no abortion rule here for years due to the lack of legislation. This is the fault of the government. Were it possible that her life would have been saved by an abortion on day 2 you'd think most doctors would have done it, but as the foetus (that was 17 weeks old and had no chance of survival) still had a heartbeat, they didn't.

The press releases and articles clearly articulate that the longer the woman's cervix was open the greater the chance of infection and septicemia

And most posters are castigating the governments failure to legislate not the church, the prolifers or whoever else.
There is a clear mandate for limited abortion from 20 years ago, which could have saved this woman's life.

Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

Comments