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Graduate developer salaries at the moment?

  • 06-11-2012 11:53am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 899 djk1000


    Hi,

    I'm just looking for an idea of what graduate developer salaries are at right now? I'm about to go to a few interviews and I don't want to price myself out of it, or indeed undervalue myself.

    I'm going for permanent roles in Dublin with no experience, fresh out of college with .Net C# as my primary skill, I also have javascript/HTML5/SQL and some Java.

    I just want some idea of what my salary expectation should be?

    Thanks!

    D


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ChRoMe


    djk1000 wrote: »
    Hi,

    I'm just looking for an idea of what graduate developer salaries are at right now? I'm about to go to a few interviews and I don't want to price myself out of it, or indeed undervalue myself.

    I'm going for permanent roles in Dublin with no experience, fresh out of college with .Net C# as my primary skill, I also have javascript/HTML5/SQL and some Java.

    I just want some idea of what my salary expectation should be?

    Thanks!

    D

    I'm in London so cant comment, just look at monster.ie or other job sites for an idea.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 2,589 Mod ✭✭✭✭ KonFusion


    I know a few grads on around 30k if that's any use. 2 working for fortune 500 companies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭ ec18


    grad salaries can range from 26K to 32K maybe a little bit higher but they would be the exception,.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 COYW


    From what I have seen you should be expecting between 25K-30K. As an experienced developer, I would urge you to think about the direction you wish to take for the sake of a few grand gross at this stage. A job paying 25K which will help you grow your knowledge in the area you wish to work, is far better than a 30K job in which the scope for learning is very narrow. I have come across plenty who have chosen the 30K option and then find themselves lacking in terms of knowledge when they try to move on after 3 years experience or so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 891 ✭✭✭ Mmmm_Lemony


    COYW wrote: »
    From what I have seen you should be expecting between 25K-30K. As an experienced developer, I would urge you to think about the direction you wish to take for the sake of a few grand gross at this stage. A job paying 25K which will help you grow your knowledge in the area you wish to work, is far better than a 30K job in which the scope for learning is very narrow. I have come across plenty who have chosen the 30K option and then find themselves lacking in terms of knowledge when they try to move on after 3 years experience or so.

    You have a greater chance of making a name for yourself and moving up the ranks in a small to medium sized company. Also more likely to get your hands dirty and different tech and new projects. A fortune 500 company will likely have better benefits and maybe even a nicer pay scale, but you are likely to feel like a number after a short time. Not the case for all large companies mind. But something worth thinking about before you sign anything.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 COYW


    You have a greater chance of making a name for yourself and moving up the ranks in a small to medium sized company. Also more likely to get your hands dirty and different tech and new projects. A fortune 500 company will likely have better benefits and maybe even a nicer pay scale, but you are likely to feel like a number after a short time. Not the case for all large companies mind. But something worth thinking about before you sign anything.

    Personally, I would advise any graduate to take up a role in a small company, assuming they (the company) are not ripping the pee pay and condition wise. Two years or so in a small company like that can be invaluable. I did that and I ended up gaining knowledge on areas such as mail servers, system and network administration which has stood to me as time has passed even though I progressed into a purely software dev. role.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 899 djk1000


    Good advice, thanks! My priority is definitely experience, I've applied mainly to smaller companies and have some interviews lined up.

    I found it very frustrating with every job ad having "negotiable" instead of an actual amount and saying "excellent benefits" instead of actually listing the benefits.

    While I'm on a rant, what's also bugging me is ads (particularly from recruitment agents) that have a pie-in-the-sky dream list of every technology that they want an I.T grad to have, yet someone with years of experience probably wouldn't have exposure to half of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ChRoMe


    djk1000 wrote: »
    Good advice, thanks! My priority is definitely experience, I've applied mainly to smaller companies and have some interviews lined up.

    I found it very frustrating with every job ad having "negotiable" instead of an actual amount and saying "excellent benefits" instead of actually listing the benefits.

    While I'm on a rant, what's also bugging me is ads (particularly from recruitment agents) that have a pie-in-the-sky dream list of every technology that they want an I.T grad to have, yet someone with years of experience probably wouldn't have exposure to half of it.

    No need to get annoyed about it, everyone knows they are fantasy wish lists. I've been offered jobs where I didnt even have 25% of the "required" technologies.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,367 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Manach


    Offhand there are recruitment agency reports on IT salaries: Brightwater and Morgan Mckinley publish two of them, AFAIR.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 40,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sparks


    You have a greater chance of making a name for yourself and moving up the ranks in a small to medium sized company. Also more likely to get your hands dirty and different tech and new projects. A fortune 500 company will likely have better benefits and maybe even a nicer pay scale, but you are likely to feel like a number after a short time. Not the case for all large companies mind. But something worth thinking about before you sign anything.

    For "after a short time", read "two hours into day one". However, as a first job, I'd actually suggest taking a role in a large company over a small one. Yes, in a small company you'll get to use more tools, take on larger projects and do more design level work.

    And you won't be ready for it and you'll make a mess of it. Yes, you will. We all did in our first job, that's why your first job is an entry-level one. No shame in it, you're learning and it's expected that you'll be sloppy in places you didn't know you had to be neat in, and that you'll bite off more than you can chew, and that you'll take on tasks that more experienced people know are doomed and wouldn't touch with a barge pole. That's fine. But in a small company, you can wind up being given something important to do that with and the fallout is generally not more training when you inevitably screw up :D

    In larger companies, you won't get near design work of any magnitude for a while, but you will be surrounded by experienced people and if you want to learn and grow as a professional, that's a pretty good environment to do a first job in. Stick it out for a year or even two, and then once you've knocked off the worst of the rough edges, go for a startup and use the tools and do the things you couldn't in the larger company. Not only will you appreciate it more, but you're likely to screw up less as a result.

    Also, remember this is your first job. It's not just software you need to be learning, but how the workplace itself operates, how to work with other people in teams on large projects (you haven't met a large project yet, not if you're a new graduate. The largest thing you'll have seen in college work doesn't even begin to approach the largest thing you'll work on in industry). It's how to get on with people that you like and people who irritate you to the point where you'd rip the skin off their face with a rabid badger if it'd make them stop talking for five minutes; it's how to deal with managers and other bosses, both the good ones and the bad ones (and how to tell the difference); it's how to deal with clients (though you may not see any in a really large company); it's how the company is an actual business that needs to earn money and how that affects designs and priorities; and most importantly -if you can see it - how the company hires new hands and what they look for and how they decide how much to pay them.

    Oh, and if you can learn about when to stick with the job; when not to take the job; and when (and how) to quietly resign and run for the hills - that would be a good thing too, but the odds are that you'll be a few jobs learning that (that's just how it goes, you need data points).

    You won't learn much about those things in a four-person startup, no matter how cool the tools or tasks they have. (Well, maybe the bit about running for the hills, or the bit about bad bosses, and you definitely will learn about the dire need for having written contracts for every last little thing; but other than that...)

    Mind, you'll be learning to eat bitter, but that's part of the first job anywhere; it's just that a few people in our industry think they never need to learn it (and they're the poorer for it and they're fairly easy to spot because they create unnecessary work for those around them). In a larger company, it's a lot easier to learn to eat bitter (for one thing, the paycheque cushions the blow; for another, there's usually more support and better trained managers, and less panic).


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 899 djk1000


    I should probably mention that I'm in my 30's, this is a second career (actually a third career) and I'm an accountant who has worked on projects, worked for big companies, worked for small companies, dealt with infuriating customers and colleagues and have project management experience. I'm well used to the politics!

    To be honest, I'd be happy out with €26k-€30k if the employer was helping out with further education.

    Thanks for the good advice!


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,935 ✭✭✭✭ Francie Barrett


    30k is about average.


  • Registered Users Posts: 891 ✭✭✭ Mmmm_Lemony


    Sparks wrote: »
    For "after a short time", read "two hours into day one". However, as a first job, I'd actually suggest taking a role in a large company over a small one. Yes, in a small company you'll get to use more tools, take on larger projects and do more design level work.

    And you won't be ready for it and you'll make a mess of it. Yes, you will. We all did in our first job, that's why your first job is an entry-level one. No shame in it, you're learning and it's expected that you'll be sloppy in places you didn't know you had to be neat in, and that you'll bite off more than you can chew, and that you'll take on tasks that more experienced people know are doomed and wouldn't touch with a barge pole. That's fine. But in a small company, you can wind up being given something important to do that with and the fallout is generally not more training when you inevitably screw up :D

    In larger companies, you won't get near design work of any magnitude for a while, but you will be surrounded by experienced people and if you want to learn and grow as a professional, that's a pretty good environment to do a first job in. Stick it out for a year or even two, and then once you've knocked off the worst of the rough edges, go for a startup and use the tools and do the things you couldn't in the larger company. Not only will you appreciate it more, but you're likely to screw up less as a result.

    Also, remember this is your first job. It's not just software you need to be learning, but how the workplace itself operates, how to work with other people in teams on large projects (you haven't met a large project yet, not if you're a new graduate. The largest thing you'll have seen in college work doesn't even begin to approach the largest thing you'll work on in industry). It's how to get on with people that you like and people who irritate you to the point where you'd rip the skin off their face with a rabid badger if it'd make them stop talking for five minutes; it's how to deal with managers and other bosses, both the good ones and the bad ones (and how to tell the difference); it's how to deal with clients (though you may not see any in a really large company); it's how the company is an actual business that needs to earn money and how that affects designs and priorities; and most importantly -if you can see it - how the company hires new hands and what they look for and how they decide how much to pay them.

    Oh, and if you can learn about when to stick with the job; when not to take the job; and when (and how) to quietly resign and run for the hills - that would be a good thing too, but the odds are that you'll be a few jobs learning that (that's just how it goes, you need data points).

    You won't learn much about those things in a four-person startup, no matter how cool the tools or tasks they have. (Well, maybe the bit about running for the hills, or the bit about bad bosses, and you definitely will learn about the dire need for having written contracts for every last little thing; but other than that...)

    Mind, you'll be learning to eat bitter, but that's part of the first job anywhere; it's just that a few people in our industry think they never need to learn it (and they're the poorer for it and they're fairly easy to spot because they create unnecessary work for those around them). In a larger company, it's a lot easier to learn to eat bitter (for one thing, the paycheque cushions the blow; for another, there's usually more support and better trained managers, and less panic).

    I think this is a very negative attitude to have. Of all industries, probably IT is one of the riskiest, so fear of failure is not suited to it. You need to take risks and be encouraged to do so. Jumping in at the deep end is good for a persons character building in my opinion.

    Also, speaking from experience, I started in an I.T. Related company about 14 years ago and stayed with them for 4 years. I progressed at a blistering pace, travelled the world, and had experiences I would never have had with twice or three times the exposure in a larger company.

    Today, I'm 7 years in the same company, a large one. It's a monster. I'm still doing the same job I was when I started. It's not from lack of commitment or hard work either.

    As for team work, I would say you are still likely to work in a team, even with a small company but more likely that the team would have more diversity. What I mean is, it wouldn't just be developers. With smaller companies you are more likely to be working directly with customers, sales, marketing, finance the works.

    Finally, yes pay is a big factor, but it's not what drives people. Starting out it would be wiser to accumulate knowledge rather than money. And as for managers, I would completely disagree that they are better in larger companies. At the highest ranks of an organisation yes, but mid to low level would be no different than with a small company.

    Edit: in some large companies that are exceptions to the rule and considered good companies to work for, if you reach all your targets they (your managers) think that there is something wrong. You are not expected to reach all your targets. You are expected to fail some and win others. They give these almost unattainable goals so that you are pushed to succeed, and stretched a little. This is the practice at Google.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 40,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sparks


    I think this is a very negative attitude to have.
    I would say it's not negative; it's realistic. IT has a high failure rate for its projects (that's not an opinion, that's what the statistics say and have said since the late 70s), so if you're going to be a professional in the field, you should be taking a conservative and pragmatic outlook, even if that's a bit of work to maintain :)

    But that's not the culture you see promoted a lot - look through our news sites and we're an industry that, publicly at least, appears to be pushing the "rock star" attitude a lot - aim big, plan big, be sure to worry about "web scale", try to be the next big thing, criticise any other approach (whether calmly or with the infamous "F*ck You" powerpoint slide at a supposedly professional conference) and so on and so forth (and yes, you should be hearing this when you read that :D ).

    Me, I think that's simply not professional and might be great fun when you're in your teens and twenties, but your career lasts a lot longer than that and unless you plan to migrate off to management or somewhere else by then, you need a better perspective, and frankly, that means accepting that you will fail and planning so that that failure doesn't do as much damage as it might if you didn't plan for it.
    You need to take risks and be encouraged to do so.
    I'm an engineer. We're trained to be risk-averse. Literally so - the very first lecture at 0900 on the first day of your first year in engineering in TCD is spent watching video and photo footage of Tacoma Narrows, of the Silver Bridge, of the Hyatt Regency walkway collapse, BA flight 5390 and so on, paying attention to causes and casualty figures; the lesson is that this is a profession where a serious mistake causes major disasters and can kill people. And then they talk about Therac-25 and Ariane-V for the sniggering computer engineers who think that this only happens to civil and mechanical engineers. These days they'd probably include people causing major car accidents from following GPS units, or Ulster Bank, or the many, many, many (seriously, what the hell?) incidents of radiation overdoses from computerised radiation therapy machines since Therac-25.

    That attitude of knowing the cost of a major failure isn't something to take lightly carries over from the work you do, to how you approach the job in general, and frankly I think that's a good thing. Taking calculated risks deliberately is one thing (and a good thing if done right) whether it's with a design or with a career; telling a new grad to jump in with both feet and take risks they have no experience with and no possible way to gauge because of a lack of experience and data... well, I wouldn't call that a wise course of action.

    It sounds great, especially in the blogosphere as an inspirational post ("I followed my dreams! They blew up, but I followed them and that's what counts!"), where it might well make the top of HN for a day or two before the next shiny thing comes along, but your career is supposed to be a few decades long and honestly, if you screw up a major project on your lonesome - which can happen in your first job in a small enough startup - that can follow you around for a bit. And everyone screws up in the beginning, it's what you're meant to do and you're not going to be any good until you do because you won't learn.

    Hence my thought that it's better to go work with experienced people for a year or so and knock off the rough edges and get some data, some experience; and then start taking risks when you have some idea of what's entailed in them.

    Or, in the tl;dr version:
    Jumping in at the deep end is good for a persons character building in my opinion.
    Good way to drown too, if you don't know how to swim :)





    Finally, yes pay is a big factor, but it's not what drives people.
    ....to an extent, yes, when you're young.

    Frankly, I thought the OP was the usual 21/22-yo new developer, not someone on a second career; in his case, saying "don't follow the money" might not be realistic. We kindof expect the living-in-a-garret thing from young new grads, but for people starting off who may have families and mortgages to worry about, the money is rather important. I know I couldn't go back to a 30k salary now even if I wanted to for just that reason. And honestly, there are very few companies out there doing things interesting enough to take a pay cut to work for, but a huge number who all claim that they're doing things that interesting. So I've never been a massive believer in the idea that pay is irrelevant (it's not primary once it goes above a certain threshold, and it's a lousy motivator, yes; but it's more complicated than just being some binary choice -- there are whole academic studies of the principles in play here, it doesn't condense to a soundbite well).
    And as for managers, I would completely disagree that they are better in larger companies. At the highest ranks of an organisation yes, but mid to low level would be no different than with a small company.
    I wouldn't have had the same experience - the best managers I've ever had or met did not work for small startups. The worst, however, universally did. I mean, you'll find bad managers in large companies and good managers in small companies as well, but the odds seem better in larger companies (though to be fair, it does appear to be very tightly coupled to the company's culture).


  • Registered Users Posts: 891 ✭✭✭ Mmmm_Lemony


    Sparks wrote: »
    I would say it's not negative; it's realistic. IT has a high failure rate for its projects (that's not an opinion, that's what the statistics say and have said since the late 70s), so if you're going to be a professional in the field, you should be taking a conservative and pragmatic outlook, even if that's a bit of work to maintain :)

    But that's not the culture you see promoted a lot - look through our news sites and we're an industry that, publicly at least, appears to be pushing the "rock star" attitude a lot - aim big, plan big, be sure to worry about "web scale", try to be the next big thing, criticise any other approach (whether calmly or with the infamous "F*ck You" powerpoint slide at a supposedly professional conference) and so on and so forth (and yes, you should be hearing this when you read that :D ).

    Me, I think that's simply not professional and might be great fun when you're in your teens and twenties, but your career lasts a lot longer than that and unless you plan to migrate off to management or somewhere else by then, you need a better perspective, and frankly, that means accepting that you will fail and planning so that that failure doesn't do as much damage as it might if you didn't plan for it.

    I don't disagree with those facts. I think you are missing my point. I am saying expect failure, but don't fear it.

    If you are working on software that can affect lives, then obviously risk taking is not an option. (what a weird way to start off a students journey through academia and beyond by the way). But innovation and risk go hand in hand. Something that is not encouraged in larger companies. Even large companies that say they encourage risk taking (the company I currently work for as example), don't have the culture required to allow it. And culture is very difficult to change, the bigger the organisation.

    And as for pay, I never said it was irrelevant. Of course it is. But shouldn't be the decision maker. As an accountant especially I am assuming the career change from OP is being driven by more than a financial need. In which case immersion would be better, knowing its possible that he/she will definitely get wet, but will have more fun in the process.

    Finally, it's very easy for bad managers to hide in big organisations. Good managers are few and far between, regardless of the size of a company.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ChRoMe


    Sparks: In any well run small company a fresh faced new grad will get all the exposure and have a senior developer looking after them to make sure they dont do anything dumb....


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 40,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sparks


    ChRoMe wrote: »
    Sparks: In any well run small company a fresh faced new grad will get all the exposure and have a senior developer looking after them to make sure they dont do anything dumb....
    1) "well run" - I like how you said it like it was no big thing :D Well run small companies are reasonably uncommon in Ireland, the cowboy outfits outnumber them by a handy margin.
    2) Even at that, what you mean is "any well run company with sufficient manpower and sufficiently slack deadlines".

    Truth is, unlike (and this is a well-worn example, but remains a good one) civil engineering, the software industry doesn't really do Continuing Professional Development or mentoring properly. Things like the Chartered Engineer degree are almost unrecognised, there isn't really any universally accepted accreditation for post-college training work, companies by and large don't make formal training even a part of a new developer's workload, let alone make it a priority, and training to learn how to mentor is unheard of. Contrast that with civil engineering where you're working towards a C.Eng degree from pretty much the get-go, where companies run formal accredited courses for that, and where mentoring and training are something that is not just accepted, but which is treated in a similar fashion to a compensation package. You do have exceptions to this, but they seem to be really rather rare; and if I had to guess at something that was going to change in our industry over any long span of time (as in, decades), I think that would be it - that we'd move towards this kind of CPD process.

    There should always be that kind of mentoring; I've just never seen it in a startup or SME yet (and to be fair, it's no utopia in larger companies either).


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ChRoMe


    Sparks wrote: »
    1) "well run" - I like how you said it like it was no big thing :D Well run small companies are reasonably uncommon in Ireland, the cowboy outfits outnumber them by a handy margin.
    2) Even at that, what you mean is "any well run company with sufficient manpower and sufficiently slack deadlines".

    Truth is, unlike (and this is a well-worn example, but remains a good one) civil engineering, the software industry doesn't really do Continuing Professional Development or mentoring properly. Things like the Chartered Engineer degree are almost unrecognised, there isn't really any universally accepted accreditation for post-college training work, companies by and large don't make formal training even a part of a new developer's workload, let alone make it a priority, and training to learn how to mentor is unheard of. Contrast that with civil engineering where you're working towards a C.Eng degree from pretty much the get-go, where companies run formal accredited courses for that, and where mentoring and training are something that is not just accepted, but which is treated in a similar fashion to a compensation package. You do have exceptions to this, but they seem to be really rather rare; and if I had to guess at something that was going to change in our industry over any long span of time (as in, decades), I think that would be it - that we'd move towards this kind of CPD process.

    There should always be that kind of mentoring; I've just never seen it in a startup or SME yet (and to be fair, it's no utopia in larger companies either).

    Of course there are not the same level of accredation, the industry is in its infancy, no one has figured out the right way to do things. We are all figuring it out as we go along, so to make comparisons with something like civil engineering is a waste of time.

    Its nothing about sufficient manpower or slack deadlines, a junior developer let loose on a production environment without any sort of supervision is asking for trouble. Its a substantially less investment to watch them then to just let them roam free and then have to pick up the pieces.

    Tbh, you just sound like you have had some bad luck in your workplaces.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 40,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sparks


    ChRoMe wrote: »
    Of course there are not the same level of accredation, the industry is in its infancy, no one has figured out the right way to do things. We are all figuring it out as we go along, so to make comparisons with something like civil engineering is a waste of time.
    It's not a waste of time if all you're looking for is an idea of where the industry will go in the long term (yeah, it's daft to make comparisons for immediate use in some sort of judgement).
    Its nothing about sufficient manpower or slack deadlines, a junior developer let loose on a production environment without any sort of supervision is asking for trouble. Its a substantially less investment to watch them then to just let them roam free and then have to pick up the pieces.
    You know that and I know that, but I've seen production environments in small companies where that kind of thing was standard operating procedure...
    Tbh, you just sound like you have had some bad luck in your workplaces.
    Some good, some bad, some very bad, and (luckily) some absolute clusterbleeps avoided through fear and running away quickly :)
    I'm not sure I'm unique, or even uncommon though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ChRoMe


    Sparks wrote: »
    It's not a waste of time if all you're looking for is an idea of where the industry will go in the long term (yeah, it's daft to make comparisons for immediate use in some sort of judgement).


    You know that and I know that, but I've seen production environments in small companies where that kind of thing was standard operating procedure...


    Some good, some bad, some very bad, and (luckily) some absolute clusterbleeps avoided through fear and running away quickly :)
    I'm not sure I'm unique, or even uncommon though.

    Fair enough, I still dont see it as a compelling argument against someone new to the industry going to a smaller company. I feel kind of strongly about this as its only been recently that I've moved to a large company after a decade at smaller startups/SME. The knowledge and experience I gained has made a far more effective developer. However I admit there are positives and negatives to both environments.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,246 conor.hogan.2


    what a weird way to start off a students journey through academia and beyond by the way

    I had a similar experience in CS too. It is a very good point to get across and leads into lots of topics like floating point precision and dozens of others.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,763 ✭✭✭ shootermacg


    I agree totally with Sparks here, bright eyed bushy tailed grads WILL make mistakes be it deleting important data from a database, not saving their work etc, etc, etc.

    A big company has procedures in place to limit the scope for mistakes. In a small company the starter dev is handed the keys to the ferrari and told not to crash it. Most grads are not near the finished article, I say this from personal experience as a 1st class honours grad.

    It will take at least 2 or 3 years before you really find your feet and understand the lay of the land. If it was all just coding I know most of use would be happy, but development is primarily about time management and estimates AND politics, there will always be someone trying to big themselves up and make you look bad in the process.

    If I had a dollar for every middle manager that told me how he had to whip his under performing team into shape...
    Three things I would look for in a company in an interview, further education, perks and a reasonable salary.

    Be prepared to spend at least 2 or 3 years in one place before moving on, and you will have to move on if you want to increase you earnings.

    I have seen the advertising for candidates recently and it really looks like the employers are basically excluding new grads. This seems fairly fishy to me, maybe they are engineering reasons for outsourcing, but the funny thing is outsourcing ALWAYS bites the company in the ass in the long run.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,814 TPD


    I graduated last year, have been working for a year in Donegal on 25k. I'd want quite a bit more if I was living in Dublin though.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,003 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Tar.Aldarion


    Speaking as a grad with a 1.1 degree and a masters, I started on 25k this year in a company with about 25 people, 6 devs. And I dont mind one bit if people are getting 5k or 10k more than me starting off. You shouldn't really be worried about that imo. You want a good work environment, a job you like and a place where you learn things. I love my job and the people, my boss/es are great, I started off doing a language I didn't know at all, python, doing some android and python dev along with some testing now. I feel like I learn something every day (i'm solely in charge of making the companies android app which is daunting as I'm a bit clueless adn it's hard to now what is expected of you, but that is what I want, to be learning) and I enjoy the work and the people, which I think is what you ideally want. It's quite daunting starting off and you should really jsut be looking for conditions there and what you will be doing day to day/learning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭✭✭ Alpha101


    Speaking as a grad with a 1.1 degree and a masters, I started on 25k this year in a company with about 25 people, 6 devs. And I dont mind one bit if people are getting 5k or 10k more than me starting off. You shouldn't really be worried about that imo. You want a good work environment, a job you like and a place where you learn things. I love my job and the people, my boss/es are great, I started off doing a language I didn't know at all, python, doing some android and python dev along with some testing now. I feel like I learn something every day (i'm solely in charge of making the companies android app which is daunting as I'm a bit clueless adn it's hard to now what is expected of you, but that is what I want, to be learning) and I enjoy the work and the people, which I think is what you ideally want. It's quite daunting starting off and you should really jsut be looking for conditions there and what you will be doing day to day/learning.

    Could I ask if this was your first/only offer, or did you have others offers and you simply decided this offered you the best opportunity?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,003 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Tar.Aldarion


    Well I wasn't applying for jobs, I was studying for a java certificate first. I was contacted about the job whilst studying and took it when I was offered it (it sounded good, I was shown around the offices and the staff etc. It sounded like I would be learning a lot/given a lot to do). If I was offered more at the same time and it didn't sound as good, I would have taken the lesser offer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,375 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    I think there is a danger with smaller companies that you will learn bad habits and there will be no one there with the time, inclination or knowledge to put you right.
    Typically in a larger company you will have more people with more time to mentor and basically keep an eye on you, review your work etc.
    Its all well and good learning lots of varied stuff on your own but without guidance you are not necessarily learning the best way fo doing something.
    I'd prefer to end up as a mykong rather than a roseindia.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,003 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Tar.Aldarion


    Does that happen more often in a small company than a big one? I suppose people might think they would be more busy being in a small company? Personally I have a senior developer that goes over all my code after I submit it, draws out diagrams of everything, explains things in great detail and why I should do things in a certain way, and that is a smallish company. If he is busy any other one of the developers helps you. It would probably depend on the company and deadlines I suppose, and really, just how inclined people are to bother with you as well. It may take me a whole day to do some code, but them a few minutes to check it out and talk to me. If it was a case that in smaller companies that people dont have time for you it would really be better to go with a larger one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 784 ILikeBananas


    Hey OP, I started a grad role as a .NET web applications developer in Cork this year on 28k


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