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A Question Relating to Dogs and Islam

1246

Comments

  • #92
    Angel Victorious Trainee
    Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Angel Victorious Trainee


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Why is it, by the way, that posters on this forum will so quickly accuse non muslims (christians and all) of pushing atheism when a thread isn't going their way? Its like this forum has its own version of Godwin Law, but instead of nazism its accusations of atheism being pushed on people.

    Christians seem to assume on the forums that unless explicitly stated otherwise, !christian = atheist
    same for in here, it seems


  • #93
    hivizman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭hivizman


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Is there any more difference between a man and a dog and between a man and any other animal? Why does the quran single out dogs? Why should it talk about any animals in this way at all? Is there really that big of an issue with treating animals well? Why the assumption that if you stop someone from treating a dog well that they will transfer their affection onto humans?

    Actually, all the negative Islamic teachings about dogs come from traditions of Muhammad. The Qur'an mentions dogs in only two passages. One of these, Surat al-Kahf, tells the story of some young men who went into a cave and slept there for 309 years - these men apparently had a dog who lay "stretching out his paws at the threshold" (Surat al-Kahf 18:18). Some commentaries have attempted to explain the presence of the dog by describing it as a guard-dog.

    The other passage is Surat al-A'raf 7:175-176, where a dog is used in a simile. In Yusuf Ali's translation, this reads: "Relate to them the story of the man to whom We sent Our signs, but he passed them by: so Satan followed him up, and he went astray. If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect."


  • #94
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    hivizman wrote: »
    Actually, all the negative Islamic teachings about dogs come from traditions of Muhammad. The Qur'an mentions dogs in only two passages. One of these, Surat al-Kahf, tells the story of some young men who went into a cave and slept there for 309 years - these men apparently had a dog who lay "stretching out his paws at the threshold" (Surat al-Kahf 18:18). Some commentaries have attempted to explain the presence of the dog by describing it as a guard-dog.

    The other passage is Surat al-A'raf 7:175-176, where a dog is used in a simile. In Yusuf Ali's translation, this reads: "Relate to them the story of the man to whom We sent Our signs, but he passed them by: so Satan followed him up, and he went astray. If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect."
    dogs were not only kept for working purposes/guarding/hunting, in the early days of man[strange as it may seem],they were also kept in bed to attract the fleas that bite people,dogs have a higher blood temp.keep you warm in the winter and the fleas off in the summer


  • #95
    hivizman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭hivizman


    getz wrote: »
    dogs were not only kept for working purposes/guarding/hunting, in the early days of man[strange as it may seem],they were also kept in bed to attract the fleas that bite people,dogs have a higher blood temp.keep you warm in the winter and the fleas off in the summer

    Interesting. The general consensus of Muslim scholars is that dogs are not in themselves impure, but their saliva and urine are ritually impure, so getting dog saliva or urine on your body, clothes or eating and drinking vessels makes these ritually unclean.

    The following extract from the Tafsir Ibn Kathir, a widely recognised commentary on the Qur'an from the 14th century CE, interprets the place of the dog in Surat al-Kahf:

    Their dog lay down at the door, as is the habit of dogs. Ibn Jurayj said, "He was guarding the door for them.'' It was his nature and habit to lie down at their door as if guarding them. He was sitting outside the door, because the angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog, as was reported in As-Sahih [Bukhari and Muslim], nor do they enter a house in which there is an image, a person in a state of ritual impurity or a disbeliever, as was narrated in the Hasan Hadith. The blessing they enjoyed [i.e. sleeping for 309 years without growing older] extended to their dog, so the sleep that overtook them overtook him too. This is the benefit of accompanying good people, and so this dog attained fame and stature. It was said that he was the hunting dog of one of the people which is the more appropriate view, or that he was the dog of the king's cook, who shared their religious views, and brought his dog with him. And Allah knows best.

    Given the existence of Hadiths hostile to dogs, ibn Kathir needs to explain away the presence of a dog in the "sleepers in the cave" story in the Qur'an. So first of all he claims that the god is "sitting outside the door" (when the Qur'an states that the dog's fore-legs are on the threshold of the cave, suggesting that the dog is largely inside the cave), and then the dog is asserted to be a hunting dog, so it comes within the classes of dog that are clearly permitted.


  • #96
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    hivizman wrote:
    Actually, all the negative Islamic teachings about dogs come from traditions of Muhammad.

    The Hadiths? OK my mistake.
    hivizman wrote: »
    Interesting. The general consensus of Muslim scholars is that dogs are not in themselves impure, but their saliva and urine are ritually impure, so getting dog saliva or urine on your body, clothes or eating and drinking vessels makes these ritually unclean.

    A friend of mine, a Malaysian muslim, has a special soap she can use if she comes into contact with a dog.


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  • #97
    vibe666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    A friend of mine, a Malaysian muslim, has a special soap she can use if she comes into contact with a dog.
    sounds very posh, but i feel sorry for the poor dog who can only lick his balls to get rid of the taste of human. :D


  • #98
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Christians seem to assume on the forums that unless explicitly stated otherwise, !christian = atheist
    same for in here, it seems

    He has a very strange screen name for a Christian and I have never seen him post on the Christian forum here. Traditionally in Christianity if a dog entered a Church it had to be re-consecrated by a Bishop; a believe that the Russian Old Believers, the Greek Old Calendarists and the conservative part of the Assyrian Church of the East still believe this.


  • #99
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    He has a very strange screen name for a Christian
    How so?
    and I have never seen him post on the Christian forum here.
    I've got over 100 posts in the Christianity forum and many more on other forums. If you don't want to believe me, ask any of the regulars on the forum or even ask on this thread.

    But that is neither here nor there.


  • #100
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    How so?

    I've got over 100 posts in the Christianity forum and many more on other forums. If you don't want to believe me, ask any of the regulars on the forum or even ask on this thread.

    But that is neither here nor there.

    Christians dont believe in partying.

    Okay fair enough. The fact remains though that the ancient Christian attitude to dogs is very similar to the Muslim one.


  • #101
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,097 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    hivizman wrote: »
    Interesting. The general consensus of Muslim scholars is that dogs are not in themselves impure, but their saliva and urine are ritually impure, so getting dog saliva or urine on your body, clothes or eating and drinking vessels makes these ritually unclean.

    Firstly thank you for providing some rational comment & explanation - it was badly needed :)

    But the Saluki is specifically excluded from all of the above & yet it's saliva & urine are identical to any other breed.


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  • #102
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,097 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Okay fair enough. The fact remains though that the ancient Christian attitude to dogs is very similar to the Muslim one.

    Doesn't this suggest that Islam should follow the Christians & update their philosophy to recognise modern knowledge.


  • #103
    old_aussie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    dead one wrote: »

    Most of the non muslim population don't keep dog. Why should they be dead. See it's sickness to attach yourself with dogs.... As some of friends are sick of pigeons... They pass their day and night with pigeon don't care for other people... the other day i saw two people are fighting for pigeons... It's pure sickness

    You cannot even read English, read my post again.

    muslims don't have dogs, but many non muslims DO have dogs.

    Pidgeons, WTF have they got to do with this.


  • #104
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    old_aussie wrote: »
    You cannot even read English, read my post again.

    muslims don't have dogs,
    who said, moderate Muslims keep dogs, they allow dogs to lick themselves as non Muslim. Old assie, i think you're too old to understand. Take your pills


  • #105
    vibe666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    dead one wrote: »
    Most of the non muslim population don't keep dog. Why should they be dead. See it's sickness to attach yourself with dogs.... As some of friends are sick of pigeons... They pass their day and night with pigeon don't care for other people... the other day i saw two people are fighting for pigeons... It's pure sickness
    most non-muslims would see it as sick to treat women as property or second class citizens and force their children to marry old men for family status, or cut peoples heads off, or stone or publicly beat people to death, but plenty of muslims see this as normal.

    the difference here being that your opinion of dogs isn't factually correct, whereas my statement about what some muslims think is acceptable behavoir is. remind me again who are the really sick ones? :rolleyes:


  • #106
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    vibe666 wrote: »
    most non-muslims would see it as sick to treat women as property or second class citizens and force their children to marry old men for family status, or cut peoples heads off, or stone or publicly beat people to death, but plenty of muslims see this as normal.
    Remember all you've learned from old bigot media. Why would they tell you truth about Islam. Because they know if Islam comes then they wouldn't enjoy. what you're saying, you've learned it from twisted media and twisted brain. No pure muslim consider women as his property or treat them as second class citizen.. Those who treat women like this way they follow they cultural religion not islam.
    I give you example of Afghanistan, there is honor killing, Islam doesn't allow such acts. But if you relate it to islam then believe what you prefer to believe.
    vibe666 wrote: »
    the difference here being that your opinion of dogs isn't factually correct, whereas my statement about what some muslims think is acceptable behavoir is. remind me again who are the really sick ones? :rolleyes:
    Muslim are human, what do you think they are Prophets, they can also sick like other people, they can be hypocrite. So what your point. Are you saying muslims should be 100 perfect, i think that the irony you drove.
    You people are badly busted about dogs and now you going in some other direction.


  • #107
    vibe666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    not from old bigoted media, from the sicko's in question putting stuff on the internet themselves. it doesn't take very much googling to find everything i've posted in my previous message put there by muslims themselves proud of what they do.

    you yourself have used a single video of one dog eating its own waste as concrete evidence that your views on all dogs are 100% correct, so my opinion carries just as much weight as yours on the subject.


  • #108
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    dead one wrote: »
    who said, moderate Muslims keep dogs, they allow dogs to lick themselves as non Muslim. Old assie, i think you're too old to understand. Take your pills

    This is an interesting question; how do we define a moderate Muslim?

    Mahmoud Ahmadinejad strikes me as a moderate Muslim, looked at as he is and not as the west paints him, while as Wahhabi to me would extremist; I cant imagine the President of Iran, at the least the current one, keeping a dog the way westerners.


  • #109
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    vibe666 wrote: »
    not from old bigoted media, from the sicko's in question putting stuff on the internet themselves. it doesn't take very much googling to find everything i've posted in my previous message put there by muslims themselves proud of what they do.
    my stuff is quite true, it shows reality about dogs. Dogs, if closely attached, they will show some serious issue. I can post many videos about this showing this reality. You can call it deadone's show. Dogs put sh!t in their mouth sometime and then come to lick people and people say it will improve their immune system. Why would Sh!t necessary to improve someone's immune system. I would like to die rather to secure my immune system by such a sh!tty way.
    vibe666 wrote: »
    you yourself have used a single video of one dog eating its own waste as concrete evidence that your views on all dogs are 100% correct, so my opinion carries just as much weight as yours on the subject.
    I guess you are suggesting that you want to see more videos, See i feel no shame in educating the humanity about truth... I can do whatever i want to prove my points and i don't feel any shame in it. ... There is no shame in telling humanity that don't keep such animals at homes which eat their own sh!t... You feel no shame in keeping such animal at your houses why would i feel shame in telling you the thing which might secure you.... You might think what i am doing but it is for yourself and your betterment.
    Here are video showing the reality about dogs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGrdSto_w_U

    the above video is video no 2

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nuUpR1fdf0
    video no 3

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLTFTKJ__e4
    video no 4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrMGMzA_qo8
    the above video is quite clear, remember in your absence, the dogs eat their poops and then come to improve your immune system. I have no idea what has happened to you people why would you like remain in such a sh!t. This is the reason Islam has forbidden dogs within your houses without any reason., ... I think, isn't it enough. or should i post more videos... You don't know my secrets, I can post hundred of videos... Now, don't say that "used a single video of one dog eating"

    peace


  • #110
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    This is an interesting question; how do we define a moderate Muslim?
    See moderate Muslim don't follow fundamentals of religion. They like what they want and they don't bring religion into their choices. For example sonia khan in the following thread, you can consider her as moderate muslim.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056496987
    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Mahmoud Ahmadinejad strikes me as a moderate Muslim, looked at as he is and not as the west paints him, while as Wahhabi to me would extremist; I cant imagine the President of Iran, at the least the current one, keeping a dog the way westerners.
    to be honest i don't know much about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, So can't say anything what i know about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
    THE ONLY WORLD LEADER with the guts to tell the truth these Zionist-censoring days, is Muslim President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
    And although the Iranian President boldly told the UN Assembly few years ago that “9-11 Was An Inside Job,” the American delegation and all of its European puppets walked out on the truth-teller, calling his proven statements “hateful and offensive.”

    Why? Because the Zionist-controlled US diplomats fear to offend their Jewish enablers like AIPAC and its subsidiary, the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.

    In another truth-telling moment, Ahmadinejad remarked to NBC’s Andrea Mitchell on 15 September 2010 that “Obama is controlled by the Zionist Lobby in America.”

    Ahmadinejad expanded his assertion by defining Zionism as an ideology aimed at displacing the Palestinians from their rightful homeland:
    Painting Ahmadinejab as a monster by falsely quoting him as saying, “Israel must be wiped from the map,” it was the New York Times, owned by the Jewish Sulzberger family, that spread the malicious rumor.

    But truth be told, in the Farsi language of Iran there is no such idiom: “wipe off the map.”

    What Ahmadinejab actually said was: “The Zionist regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time.”

    AND SO, it’s high time that the “Muslim threat” be counterpoised by the “Zionist threat” - that men like Ahmadinejab, independent of Jewish control - have courageously exposed.

    Will the people of America some day realize that their Christian world-view and freedom of public discourse has been subverted by Jews and not by Muslims?

    Or will Americans continue to send their sons and daughters (Jews don’t die in ‘New American Century’ wars) to their deaths to fight against Zion’s enemies…?

    I can't post the link, because i know the outcomes


  • #111
    vibe666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    dead one wrote: »
    I guess you are suggesting that you want to see more videos, See i feel no shame in educating the humanity about truth... I can do whatever i want to prove my points and i don't feel any shame in it. ... There is no shame in telling humanity that don't keep such animals at homes which eat their own sh!t... You feel no shame in keeping such animal at your houses why would i feel shame in telling you the thing which might secure you.... You might think what i am doing but it is for yourself and your betterment.
    for every video you can find of a dog eating it's own shit, i can give you a video of humans eating their own shit, so by your logic, as some humans do it too and there are video's on the internet of it, all humans do it and are no better than dogs.

    I could also provide you with just as many video's of muslim punishment beatings, stonings, beheadings and an almost unlimited number of savage acts worse than any animal would ever do, so is it okay for me to apply this same logic you use to condemn all dogs to condemn all muslims just because there are video's of it on the internet?


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  • #112
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    vibe666 wrote: »
    I could also provide you with just as many video's of muslim punishment beatings, stonings, beheadings and an almost unlimited number of savage acts worse than any animal would ever do, so is it okay for me to apply this same logic you use to condemn all dogs to condemn all muslims just because there are video's of it on the internet?
    Ah now you are going to badly busted. I feel pity on you. If I demand the proof whether the person in the video muslim or not. What would you do then. See youtube is full of propaganda against Muslims... But i ain't posting propaganda against dogs. What I am posting is quite clear like crystal. Suppose you post a video against muslim, how will you prove that the people in the video are muslim or not.


  • #113
    vibe666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    dead one wrote: »
    Ah now you are going to badly busted. I feel pity on you. If I demand the proof whether the person in the video muslim or not. What would you do then. See youtube is full of propaganda against Muslims... But i ain't posting propaganda against dogs. What I am posting is quite clear like crystal. Suppose you post a video against muslim, how will you prove that the people in the video are muslim or not.
    is that seriously your argument?

    if you are going to go with that then i'll be countering with the argument that you can't prove that any of those video's are of actual dogs because you have no "proof" that they really are real dogs or that it is real dog shit and that they are just radical muslim propaganda video's unjustly portraying dogs as shit eaters to make them look bad. :rolleyes:


  • #114
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    vibe666 wrote: »
    is that seriously your argument?
    for Pity's sake, dear vibe
    vibe666 wrote: »
    if you are going to go with that then i'll be countering with the argument that you can't prove that any of those video's are of actual dogs because you have no "proof" that they really are real dogs or that it is real dog shit and that they are just radical muslim propaganda video's unjustly portraying dogs as shit eaters to make them look bad. :rolleyes:
    let me give you detail above it.
    dog_parts.gif
    you see dogs are such types of creatures and what you saw in that video is a dog. Rub you eyes and invite your support. I know ultimate fate will meet the corkfeen's fate


  • #115
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    and now see the difference

    565093_100003688114381_706505277_n.jpg
    This is picture of man and you can't tell whether the man is christian/jews/muslims etc.. See the irony you drove about dogs and human. By what insane calculus someone can answer question like these.


  • #116
    vibe666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    oh right, so what you are saying is that there's no way to tell what religion a person is?

    if that is the case then how can i tell that YOU are a muslim?


  • #117
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    vibe666 wrote: »
    oh right, so what you are saying is that there's no way to tell what religion a person is?
    No I mean there's no way to tell the religion of person using random youtubevideo/ picture.
    vibe666 wrote: »
    if that is the case then how can i tell that YOU are a muslim?
    you didn't get the point.


  • #118
    KamiKazi
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,194 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    I pity you dead one, and any other Muslims like you.


  • #119
    SdoowSirhc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 524 ✭✭✭SdoowSirhc


    dead one wrote: »
    See it nice to see you... you have some serious issues...let me see..i have seen dogs eat there own crap..eat dead animals..lick their own butts ..eat spoiled food...etc...why would you want them to lick you??... you're saying dogs improve your immune system, lollzzzz.... Offcourse dirt needs a dirt to improve itself... That's not fault with yourself... Do you know what these dogs in your absence... I guess it is more scientife for you to impove you immune system..
    I guess you should do the same things what these dogs have been doing to improve your immune system.... Rofl

    He never claimed that he wanted to be licked, he was just pointing out a scientific fact; if you are in the presence of harmless germs found in animals such as dogs it will most likely help your immune system as your body get used to contact with such germs. And I'm pretty sure most people "eat dead animals" eg: Lamb, pork, chicken.. I don't understand why people like you feel the need to tell everybody who does not share your faith that they are wrong when scientific knowledge backs up their opinion and your are challenging it with claims from 1500 years ago. Why would you "lolzzzz" at it? If I, a non Islamic person, was to call you wrong in a different argument and "lolzzzz" at what you think you would call me racist or ignorant.


  • #120
    vibe666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    dead one wrote: »
    No I mean there's no way to tell the religion of person using random youtubevideo/ picture.
    no of course not, other than them releasing statements claiming responsibility, then videoing themselves praising allah & quoting the quran as they hack someone's head off with a blunt knife whilst their helpless victim lets out gurgling screams of agony.
    dead one wrote: »
    you didn't get the point.
    you're the only one here missing the point, along with several other things. :rolleyes:


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  • #121
    SdoowSirhc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 524 ✭✭✭SdoowSirhc


    I'm not a muslim but it's people like you who ruin Islam. People like you make the rest of us think that muslims are backward and ignorant.


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