Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

ormond lad · 23-05-2012 07:55PM

touts wrote: »

We cant sign any international players and the IRFU are looking to tighten that rule.
We cant seem to attract any fringe players from Leinster (or Ulster) What fringe players from the other provinces would move to us?
We can get a project player but only if he is not yet good enough to be an international.
I assume we wont be allowed to raid Connacht as they are in the HEC.
Why should we be allowed? We shouldnt as its the wrong attitude for us to have(and will never happen anyway) - we're not using our resources properly so we should just raid one of our fellow provinces that is doing things right. We would be much better off ensuring we have the best underage system possible to get the best out of all the kids playing in the schools and clubs systems in Munster
Tis the young lads or nothing i suspect.
Theres nothing wrong with that as in the long term there is more benefits

We need to make changes in our own system so we can develop better players in the future and cant go looking for excess players from leinster and ulster and stronger players from connacht

CatFromHue · 23-05-2012 07:59PM

touts wrote: »

Tis the young lads or nothing i suspect.

The Munster first choice tight 5 is good to pretty (Botha, Sherry/Varley, WDP, POC, Ryan). None of that front row will be playing for Ireland either so will be around for nearly all the games.

There is a good halfback choice in Murray, Stringer, ROG, and Keatley. Keatley won't know what hit him if Stringer can get quick ball to him.

The centres of Downey, Lualala, and Barnes look good. I suppose Dineen will be in here too. Again all these guys will be around all season more than likely.

Wings of Earls, Howlett, Zebo Hurley, and Murphy are good to pretty good. O Dea looks promising too.

Fullback is a bit light in just Jones and then Scanlon, Murphy, Hurley in the mix too.

It's just the back row that is light but there is still alot of promise there too. I think Coughlan is a good player and then the younger guys who got more game time this season than ever will be different animals next season plus you have Ronan to come back as well.

Honestly more direction in attack and I don't see why Munster won't be in the mix for the HEC and Rabo next season. The centres are proven at this level so will be far better than Mafi and an inexperienced Barnes.

donfers · 23-05-2012 08:13PM

we were an excellent side when tipoki was here and our key forwards were fit

then we became very good when our key forwards started to pick up injuries and our overseas players didn't work out so well

now with mass retirements, long-term injuries and failures in recruitment we are merely good

expect us to be not qualify from the pool stages and to compete for a top four place in the magners league next season, if people are happy with that as long we introduce a few kids then so be it

i think we could have introduced kids and still been competitive at the highest level if our recruitment was spot on and key players stayed fit, that didn't happen - we blew it and now we are on the slide for a while and those at the top seem to be just shrugging their shoulders and saying "there is nothing we can do about it" - perhaps that is true but how about you at least try

Fishooks12 · 23-05-2012 08:15PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

The Munster first choice tight 5 is good to pretty (Botha, Sherry/Varley, WDP, POC, Ryan). None of that front row will be playing for Ireland either so will be around for nearly all the games.

There is a good halfback choice in Murray, Stringer, ROG, and Keatley. Keatley won't know what hit him if Stringer can get quick ball to him.

The centres of Downey, Lualala, and Barnes look good. I suppose Dineen will be in here too. Again all these guys will be around all season more than likely.

Wings of Earls, Howlett, Zebo Hurley, and Murphy are good to pretty good. O Dea looks promising too.

Fullback is a bit light in just Jones and then Scanlon, Murphy, Hurley in the mix too.

It's just the back row that is light but there is still alot of promise there too. I think Coughlan is a good player and then the younger guys who got more game time this season than ever will be different animals next season plus you have Ronan to come back as well.

Honestly more direction in attack and I don't see why Munster won't be in the mix for the HEC and Rabo next season. The centres are proven at this level so will be far better than Mafi and an inexperienced Barnes.

Good post but you're forgetting about JJ

I think he'll have a big year next year

profitius · 23-05-2012 08:24PM

Penney is used to working with young players. He has a fantastic record in developing them and still winning.

I'd like to see Munster sign no other players and just develop the ones they have. Theres some talented players on the way up. Behind Butler and DOC2 you've Cathal O'Flaherty etc. Once this generation comes through there should be no barren spell in terms of the next generation.

GerM · 23-05-2012 08:58PM

touts wrote: »

We can get a project player but only if he is not yet good enough to be an international.

Tis the young lads or nothing i suspect.

Look through the S15 starting back rows and see the age profile and how many are uncapped. Plenty of guys are performing to a high standard week in, week out. Not being in the international squad doesn't mean they're not capable of playing international rugby. It just means that they're not better than McCaw, Kaino, Pocock, Burger, Brussouw etc. If they were South African, the likes of Leamy, Henry, Jennings and McLaughlin may never have been capped and they've been more than able to play in HEC final sides. I can see Munster picking up a very good player yet.

GerM · 23-05-2012 09:01PM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Good post but you're forgetting about JJ

I think he'll have a big year next year

Really think there's too much being placed on him. Many fans comment on him and look to him as a long term solution at 10/12. People select their sides for the next year and have him involved in the 23. He has never stepped on a field for Munster aside from a friendly and was left out for the B&I Cup final. I hope he's allowed to develop quietly and is eased into the set up. If he was involved in 10 senior games next season, it would be a big step.

shaungil · 23-05-2012 09:09PM

Who are the medical staff in munster. Is there quesions to be asked regarding them after this spate of injury enforced retiremaents? I know some are old but seems to be more than really bad luck.
Are players coming back too quickly from injury ? are they being mis diagnosed? Is the strength and conditioning regime not up to scratch to do the pre-habilitation?

ormond lad · 23-05-2012 09:40PM

shaungil wrote: »

Who are the medical staff in munster. Is there quesions to be asked regarding them after this spate of injury enforced retiremaents? I know some are old but seems to be more than really bad luck.
Are players coming back too quickly from injury ? are they being mis diagnosed? Is the strength and conditioning regime not up to scratch to do the pre-habilitation?

All staff are listed on link below
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/coaches.php

There may be problems behind the scenes, one of the S&C coaches took an injunction against Munster recently.
There has been some players who just seem to be unlucky, felix for one.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 23-05-2012 09:47PM

shaungil wrote: »

Who are the medical staff in munster. Is there quesions to be asked regarding them after this spate of injury enforced retiremaents? I know some are old but seems to be more than really bad luck.
Are players coming back too quickly from injury ? are they being mis diagnosed? Is the strength and conditioning regime not up to scratch to do the pre-habilitation?

There are definite questions to be asked. POC nearly had his career ended due to a misdiagnosed groin injured. Leamy has had to retire due to a hip injury picked up/aggregated at the WC, but he continued to play for months for Munster before surgery was carried out. Wally missed 6+ months with a knee injury and it looks like he was rushed back as he broke down and ultimately retired after he returned. Niall Ronan suffered a knee injury and similar to Wally came back apparently fit to play, but he broke down immediately and ended up missing the season's finish.

Its all a matter of incompetence versus luck and it looks like it is a hearty mix of both.

Tomtom364 · 24-05-2012 01:15AM

CatFromHue wrote: »

The Munster first choice tight 5 is good to pretty (Botha, Sherry/Varley, WDP, POC, Ryan). None of that front row will be playing for Ireland either so will be around for nearly all the games.

There is a good halfback choice in Murray, Stringer, ROG, and Keatley. Keatley won't know what hit him if Stringer can get quick ball to him.

The centres of Downey, Lualala, and Barnes look good. I suppose Dineen will be in here too. Again all these guys will be around all season more than likely.

Wings of Earls, Howlett, Zebo Hurley, and Murphy are good to pretty good. O Dea looks promising too.

Fullback is a bit light in just Jones and then Scanlon, Murphy, Hurley in the mix too.

It's just the back row that is light but there is still alot of promise there too. I think Coughlan is a good player and then the younger guys who got more game time this season than ever will be different animals next season plus you have Ronan to come back as well.

Honestly more direction in attack and I don't see why Munster won't be in the mix for the HEC and Rabo next season. The centres are proven at this level so will be far better than Mafi and an inexperienced Barnes.

I actually think O'Dea may be in for a very big season, he seems to be just as fast as Zebo and far stronger. Future back 3 of Zebo, O'Dea & Jones (if he hits form) is rather intriguing. Im hoping for a Lualala & Earls wonder partnership to develop in the centre

Would be good to see O'Dea brought along and developed by Howlett as his sucessor.

My ideal match day 23 next season, assuming people hit form and the youngsters step up

1. Kilcoyne
2. Sherry
3. BJ Botha
4. Ryan
5. POC
6. PoM
7. Dougall
8. Butler

9. Murray
10. Keatly
11. Zebo
12. Laulala
13. Earls
14. Howlett - /O'Dea if he really steps up to the plate next season
15. Jones

16. Henry
17. Wian Du Preez
18. Archer
19. Nagle
20. Coughlan
21. Williams/Stringer
22. O'Gara
23. Barnes/Downey/O'Dea/Howlett - eh... its good to have options??

donfers · 24-05-2012 01:52AM

Tomtom364 wrote: »

I actually think O'Dea may be in for a very big season, he seems to be just as fast as Zebo and far stronger. Future back 3 of Zebo, O'Dea & Jones (if he hits form) is rather intriguing. Im hoping for a Lualala & Earls wonder partnership to develop in the centre

Would be good to see O'Dea brought along and developed by Howlett as his sucessor.

My ideal match day 22 next season, assuming people hit form and the youngsters step up

1. Kilcoyne
2. Sherry
3. BJ Botha
4. Ryan
5. POC
6. PoM
7. Dougall
8. Butler

9. Murray
10. Keatly
11. Zebo
12. Laulala
13. Earls
14. Howlett - /O'Dea if he really steps up to the plate next season
15. Jones

16. Henry
17. Wian Du Preez
18. Archer
19. Nagle
20. Coughlan
21. Williams/Stringer
22. O'Gara
23. Barnes/Downey/O'Dea/Howlett - eh... its good to have options??

a brave policy and one I would support in light of the complete lack of any other strategy from the men in charge, we'd suffer with results for 1-2 years but we'd also develop a lot of players

3 players i would add that you have rather harshly left out are:

JJ

DOC 2

Dineen

Tomtom364 · 24-05-2012 02:45AM

donfers wrote: »

a brave policy and one I would support in light of the complete lack of any other strategy from the men in charge, we'd suffer with results for 1-2 years but we'd also develop a lot of players

3 players i would add that you have rather harshly left out are:

JJ

DOC 2

Dineen

Oh by no means would I be leaving any of those players out. But you can only have 23 in a match day squad so my top squad wouldnt include them as balencing the developing and the experienced is essential.

For that reason, Coughlan on the bench ahead of DOC 2.0 balences the inexperience of Pom, Butler and Dougall and also provides another Pack Leader to come onto the pitch when POC and/or POM go off.

JJ & Dineen would both be fighting it out for the 23 jersey, and with players like Downey and Howlett also possibly fighting for that jersey it is almost impossible to predict who would even be the best option here.

Thinking about it actually, JJ or Deasy could possibly push ROG for the 22 jersey as they both offer the ability to cover multiple positions.
Id actually prefer a bench with Deasy/JJ (if they pprove themselves) over ROG as I'd be cautious of having someone like Howlett who only offers 1 position cover on the bench with ROG also only offering 1 position, but at the same time really want his experience to call on.
But I think the experience and control ROG can bring from the bench in big games will keep him safe in the 22 shirt.

With the talent open to them, and the right balence of development and experience (leaned more to the development hopefully) I actually think Munster could still put a very strong challenge in for the Rabo and a Heineken 1/4

bamboozle · 24-05-2012 07:41AM

i guess when thinking of the great munster teams over the last 12 years much of the quality centered around a dominant back row with another top quality back rower on the bench, this meant serious ball carrying & linebreaking ability and great defence. With the recent retirements this quality has disappeared with perhaps only POM having the potential to reach this standard next season and maybe Butler in 18 months.

which for me raises three things:
will Penny as his talents suggest change the traditional munster game plan to make the most out of the squad at his disposal
will James Downey been the focal point for all line-breaking next season from 12
does Penny/Munster have their eye on a monster backrow project player for next season.

Monty Burnz · 24-05-2012 08:51AM

Tomtom364 wrote: »

Would be good to see O'Dea brought along and developed by Howlett as his sucessor.

I don't think it works like that. Dougie is one of the greats. If you could just teach what he does, everyone would be at it.

shootermacg · 24-05-2012 08:53AM

What worries me more is the fitness levels, Leinster can up the anti in the final 20 minutes, playing at an intensity that most teams can't live with, whereas munster seem to be out on their feet after 60 minutes.

bamboozle · 24-05-2012 08:58AM

shootermacg wrote: »

What worries me more is the fitness levels, Leinster can up the anti in the final 20 minutes, playing at an intensity that most teams can't live with, whereas munster seem to be out on their feet after 60 minutes.

injection of quality off the bench

shootermacg · 24-05-2012 09:06AM

bamboozle wrote: »

injection of quality off the bench

There is that but all the players up the intensity, it's won them a lot of tight matches, we used to do it to an extent too, just not so much this season.

Lelantos · 24-05-2012 09:11AM

boaote=Monty Burnz;78845379]

Tomtom364 wrote: »

Would be good to see O'Dea brought along and developed by Howlett as his sucessor.

I don't think it works like that. Dougie is one of the greats. If you could just teach what he does, everyone would be at it.[/Quote]
Have just read that Eddie O'Sullivan is in talks withboth the Blues & the Force, with the latter being the more likely destination, wasn't expectingthat!

Fireball07 · 24-05-2012 04:28PM

A couple of things I noticed today in the paper.

Shaun Payne said that we should move to a single playing base, saying it's just really awkward for players, you get to train less and in general is just a logistical nightmare.

Dougall won Player of the Year for Rotherham which is good news, hopefully he can hit some good form with us too.

I think there was something else but I can't remember it atm.

sioda · 24-05-2012 05:23PM

I see Darragh Hurley joined the retirement list today

Tomtom364 · 24-05-2012 05:59PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't think it works like that. Dougie is one of the greats. If you could just teach what he does, everyone would be at it.

Well no, obviously you can't just teach someone to be like howlett. Inexperienced players can learn alot on and off the field from experienced ones and Howlett is a very experienced world class winger so would be foolish to think O'Dea cant learn anything from him.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 24-05-2012 05:59PM

Fireball07 wrote: »

A couple of things I noticed today in the paper.

Shaun Payne said that we should move to a single playing base, saying it's just really awkward for players, you get to train less and in general is just a logistical nightmare.

Dougall won Player of the Year for Rotherham which is good news, hopefully he can hit some good form with us too.

I think there was something else but I can't remember it atm.

The pressure to move to a single training base mounts. Munster have two options; Cork or Limerick, as a training base in the middle is just a lose-lose scenario.

The positives of moving to Limerick include: superior facilities already in place, proximity to Thomond Park decreases match-day travel. The positives of moving to Cork include: not risking somehow alienating the biggest county in the province. Its a pretty easy decision if the branch is smart enough to make the right decision.

Tomtom364 · 24-05-2012 06:02PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The pressure to move to a single training base mounts. Munster have two options; Cork or Limerick, as a training base in the middle is just a lose-lose scenario.

The positives of moving to Limerick include: superior facilities already in place, proximity to Thomond Park decreases match-day travel. The positives of moving to Cork include: not risking somehow alienating the biggest county in the province. Its a pretty easy decision if the branch is smart enough to make the right decision.

Also, Cork seems to be the preffered place for Signed players to settle, I know Mafi, Howlett, Topoki and more all moved to Cork over Limerick

EDIT: dosnt cork also host all the munster branches offices and admin staff?

ormond lad · 24-05-2012 06:17PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The pressure to move to a single training base mounts. Munster have two options; Cork or Limerick, as a training base in the middle is just a lose-lose scenario.

The positives of moving to Limerick include: superior facilities already in place, proximity to Thomond Park decreases match-day travel. The positives of moving to Cork include: not risking somehow alienating the biggest county in the province. Its a pretty easy decision if the branch is smart enough to make the right decision.

A training base in the middle of the province is not lose-lose if you look at the long term benefits and build a training centre that can be used by all Munster sides from u16/17 youths/schools development squads to underage provincial squads to the munster juniors to the womens squads and the pros.
If munster looked to develop a site slightly based on clonmels facilites(obviously with more pitches, dressing rooms, bigger gym etc) we would do well as both the pros and future pros would have a decent facility. see here for an overhead shot of their facilites

Tomtom364 wrote: »

Also, Cork seems to be the preffered place for Signed players to settle, I know Mafi, Howlett, Topoki and more all moved to Cork over Limerick

EDIT: dosnt cork also host all the munster branches offices and admin staff?

Most of the branch staff are based in cork, munster had an office in LIT where the limerick based development officers worked out of but they now work out of the UL business park.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 24-05-2012 06:32PM

ormond lad wrote: »

A training base in the middle of the province is not lose-lose if you look at the long term benefits and build a training centre that can be used by all Munster sides from u16/17 youths/schools development squads to underage provincial squads to the munster juniors to the womens squads and the pros.
If munster looked to develop a site slightly based on clonmels facilites(obviously with more pitches, dressing rooms, bigger gym etc) we would do well as both the pros and future pros would have a decent facility. see here for an overhead shot of their facilites.

A training centre in the middle of the province appears great until you realise that all it does is increase the net commute for everyone involved. It makes sense to locate the centre where the largest numbers will be based. This generally varies from Cork to Limerick and back. As the facilities are superior in Limerick, it currently makes sense to base the squad there.

ormond lad · 24-05-2012 06:50PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

A training centre in the middle of the province appears great until you realise that all it does is increase the net commute for everyone involved. It makes sense to locate the centre where the largest numbers will be based. This generally varies from Cork to Limerick and back. As the facilities are superior in Limerick, it currently makes sense to base the squad there.

You are purely talking about the pro team, which is fine, but im talking about munster rugby overall and a top class set up in somewhere like fermoy benefits the whole province and all sides from the u16 provincial development squads to the 18s-20s interpros squads to the adult representative squads like the munster juniors not just the pro's.
You say as the facilites are currently better in limerick that we should base ourselves in Limerick. Well most of the players are based in cork so theyve a long commute.
If we move everything to limerick we are ignoring our biggest market and where we can expand much more. And just going down to cork on matchweek is not good enough if we want to expand ourselves.

PhatPiggins · 24-05-2012 09:08PM

ormond lad wrote: »

You are purely talking about the pro team, which is fine, but im talking about munster rugby overall and a top class set up in somewhere like fermoy benefits the whole province and all sides from the u16 provincial development squads to the 18s-20s interpros squads to the adult representative squads like the munster juniors not just the pro's.
You say as the facilites are currently better in limerick that we should base ourselves in Limerick. Well most of the players are based in cork so theyve a long commute.
If we move everything to limerick we are ignoring our biggest market and where we can expand much more. And just going down to cork on matchweek is not good enough if we want to expand ourselves.

There was a thing in the papers a couple of years ago questioning why so many of the NIQ's are based in Cork. Apparently Cork is an easier sell to those with families and so on.

That said it was in The Examiner and we do think Cork is the centre of the universe

danthefan · 24-05-2012 09:18PM

Tbf if I had to move to Limerick or Cork there'd only be one winner.

thomond2006 · 24-05-2012 09:21PM

danthefan wrote: »

Tbf if I had to move to Limerick or Cork there'd only be one winner.

Who?

:pac:

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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