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What are your views on your Daughter or Sister Marrying a Christian?

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Comments

  • #32
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    philologos wrote: »
    I agree that all things which are good are from God, but the idea that someone is more degenerate than another is patently nonsense.
    .

    Are you being serious?

    Marcus Aurelius, who was indeed an enemy of God, was just as degenerate as the Marquis De Sade?


  • #33
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Are you being serious?

    Marcus Aurelius, who was indeed an enemy of God, was just as degenerate as the Marquis De Sade?

    They are no more "degenerate" than I am or you are. We were all enemies of God at one point or another. Paul makes this rather clear throughout his writings, Romans is a good place to start.

    Simply put, it is entirely unacceptable for you to say that an agnostic is more "degenerate" than a Muslim in the eyes of the Gospel. I can't let a comment like that slide.

    In fact, God created mankind in His image, He loves them and longs for them to come to salvation.


  • #34
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    philologos wrote: »
    I've sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, as have you, and as has everyone on the face of the planet. We've all sinned - nobody is any less a sinner than another actually. If we've sinned, we're guilty.

    Therefore who exactly are you to claim that an agnostic is a "degenerate" in comparison to a Muslim? That's a profoundly unchristian thing to say to someone.

    We have all sinned but sinned to difference degrees, someone being cranky in the morning towards a loved one is not the same as raping a child, not by a long, long, long way- do you believe both are equal?

    A Muslim acknowledges a Creator, acknowledges the natural law and beliefs that it should be served- if as Scripture teaches us that both those are given to all mankind and that people refuse to acknowledge them because they seek after evil (Romans 1), than it follow that Muslims are less degenerate than agnostics.


  • #35
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Ultimately sin is sin, we're still guilty before God irrespective of how severe one might say something is. By the by, I believe fully that a rapist or a murderer can be saved, and be transformed by God's grace. Jesus tells us that we can be forgiven, entirely through Him. I believe that. Do you?

    Acknowledging a Creator doesn't matter much. Even the devil recognises Jesus as Lord. Ultimately what counts is whether or not you truly believe and trust in the Gospel. I.E - That as Jesus died, we died to sin, and as Jesus rose we rose to new life in Him.

    No matter who you are, no matter what you've done, no matter what your background is, or what your history is, no matter what has happened to you in the past. God loves you, and longs for you to come to know Him.

    Calling people "degenerates" has no role in Christianity, grace and truth does however. Your anti-Semitism (throughout this thread), isn't of God. Neither is your contempt towards others. I can't stand idly by while you post such nonsense in Jesus' name.


  • #36
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    philologos wrote: »
    Paul makes this rather clear throughout his writings, Romans is a good place to start. .

    Yes it is.

    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
    16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


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  • #37
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    philologos wrote: »
    Calling people "degenerates" has no role in Christianity, grace and truth does however. Your anti-Semitism (throughout this thread), isn't of God. Neither is your contempt towards others. I can't stand idly by while you post such nonsense in Jesus' name.

    What anti-semitism? I have never been anti-semitic on this forum once.

    Are you denying that some people, particularly agnostics- note I said that degenerate agnostics, not that all agnostics are degenerate- are degenerate? Are you seriously saying that?


  • #38
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I fail to see your point. Read the next chapter particularly Romans 3:23:
    Romans 3:23 wrote:
    for fall have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

    Or perhaps James 2:10-13:
    James 2:10-13 wrote:
    For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

    Even the most pious person in the world, even if they break one point of the law. They are guilty for all of it. Exactly why we are in desperate need of mercy.

    The Gospel makes perfectly clear, we are all guilty before God. We all are in the same place in respect to Him whether or not we are Christian, Muslim, atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Hindu etc. We all have the same question before us. Are we going to believe and trust in Jesus? Or will we reject Him?

    My primary point is, I will be making extremely clear my opposition to such hatred in Jesus' name, and I will challenge you on it. I'm saying that agnostics are no more degenerate than anyone else before God. They are no more "degenerate" than I am. In fact, they were all created in God's image, and even though they have rejected Him. God loves them. Indeed, God showed His love to me as an agnostic about 5 years ago.

    I won't tolerate this kind of nonsense that you are posting.


  • #39
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    philologos wrote: »
    My primary point is, I will be making extremely clear my opposition to such hatred in Jesus' name, and I will challenge you on it.

    The hatred is in your imagination (Judge not?)- I have no hatred towards Jews or agnostics, I can assure you of that, that does not stop from seeing them for what they are and the effects of their actions.


  • #40
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    philologos wrote: »
    Even the most pious person in the world, even if they break one point of the law. They are guilty for all of it. Exactly why we are in desperate need of mercy.

    So the pains of hell will be equal for all?

    God will not judge every man according to this his works?


  • #41
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Who will render to every man according to his deeds.

    Romans 2:6.


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  • #42
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    philologos wrote: »
    Ultimately sin is sin.

    So ultimately in your mind being cranky with a loved one is equal to murdering or raping a child?


  • #43
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    What anti-semitism? I have never been anti-semitic on this forum once.

    Are you denying that some people, particularly agnostics- note I said that degenerate agnostics, not that all agnostics are degenerate- are degenerate? Are you seriously saying that?

    The fact that you think the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are fake but _still_ proof of ... something is one of the most bizarre things I've ever read:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78772445&postcount=82

    Are you asssociated with the SSPX?

    P.


  • #44
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    oceanclub wrote: »
    The fact that you think the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are fake but _still_ proof of ... something is one of the most bizarre things I've ever read:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78772445&postcount=82

    Are you asssociated with the SSPX?

    P.

    The Protocols outline a plan to destroy Christian societies and replace them with the tryanny of a carefully socially engineered mass under a universal state, the plan outlined as been realized with a frightening correspondance to that document. There I can fully understand people (such as Bishop Williamson) quoting it- that was my point.

    Define what you mean by associated? Im a layman and I have gone to confession with SSPX Priests in the past and gone to Mass at their chapels, Im not doing so at the moment. I value many of the publications that they have put out- but Im not a Thomist for instance and I disagree with some of their approach.


  • #45
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    The Protocols outline a plan to destroy Christian societies and replace them with the tryanny of a carefully socially engineered mass under a universal state, the plan outlined as been realized with a frightening correspondance to that document. There I can fully understand people (such as Bishop Williamson) quoting it- that was my point.

    But. It's. Fake.

    Quoting from a fake document is meaningless. The only thing to understand from others like Williamson quoting from this is that they're gullible, idiots or so filled with hate they don't care what they are quoting from is a fraud.

    Williamson also denied 6 million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust. What is your attitude to this?
    Define what you mean by associated? Im a layman and I have gone to confession with SSPX Priests in the past and gone to Mass at their chapels,

    The fact you go to confession with SSPX priests would come under the definition of "associated", I imagine.

    P.


  • #46
    hivizman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭hivizman


    We seem to have strayed rather far from the OP's question, which was about whether Muslims would be happy if their daughters or sisters wanted to marry a Christian.

    If people want to discuss the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, particularly Muslim views of this document, then it's best to start another thread. Though, personally, I'd rather not give this document, which has been exposed over and over again as a fake, any further exposure.


  • #47
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    oceanclub wrote: »

    Williamson also denied 6 million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust. What is your attitude to this?
    .

    So its 6 million jews or is it six million all told that were supposed to have died in the camps? A lot of people seem confused on that point.

    So he expressed a historical opinion going by the evidence he had to hand, I would say so what but given the fact that you can be thrown in jail in most western european countries for doing so on this particular subject its pretty obvious that the "Holocaust" has a pseudo-religious significance for the apostate world that has risen up on the ruins of Christian civilization; even agnostics must have their heresies, eh what?


  • #48
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Fair enough.


  • #49
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    To try and get this thread back on topic...

    Would the muslim posters here be equally disapproving of their daughter with a non-muslim as they would of their son with a non-muslim?


  • #50
    inda_kenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 42 ✭inda_kenny


    Avox wrote: »
    So if your daughter wanted a happy life with someone who didn't want to control her, all the things she does, all the things she wears etc, you wouldn't be happy for her?

    Says a lot about your religion tbh.

    my father would not support my descision to not carry on the family business some years ago , i wanted to do something else and not only did he not support my choice , he blanked me for weeks after i told him , he never really came round and i ended up doing neither in the end

    apples and oranges i know but the point is the same , controlling people exist in all walks of life and under many scenarios


  • #51
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    So wait so no one thinks their grandchildren being exposed to more than one religion and being allowed to think for themselves is a good thing here? That seems to be the major concern, that grandchildren may be taught other religious beliefs as true. Surely you don't claim that a person needs to be instructed in one belief from a young age and hidden from the rest to believe what you do. Surely you believe the truth of your religion is all around us and that is why you follow it and if true so will your grandkids regardless of upbringing. To suggest otherwise is to concede ground to the atheists like myself who argue that indoctrination and not soul searching is the cause of most belief.

    You are making the argument that a child's likelihood of following your beliefs are negatively affected if they aren't told from a young age that your beliefs are exclusively right OR that Christians telling them from a young age that what they teach is right will influence them that way. That's our damn argument! One you should be very uncomfortable standing behind.


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  • #52
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    So wait so no one thinks their grandchildren being exposed to more than one religion and being allowed to think for themselves is a good thing here? That seems to be the major concern, that grandchildren may be taught other religious beliefs as true. Surely you don't claim that a person needs to be instructed in one belief from a young age and hidden from the rest to believe what you do. Surely you believe the truth of your religion is all around us and that is why you follow it and if true so will your grandkids regardless of upbringing. To suggest otherwise is to concede ground to the atheists like myself who argue that indoctrination and not soul searching is the cause of most belief.

    That's called a fallacy. It's like asking one have they stopped beating their wife.

    I've not said:
    1) That I don't want people to be exposed to other religions
    2) That I don't want people to think critically

    What I have said is that it would be incredibly difficult to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't share in such a huge part of who I am, that is my Christian walk with God.

    Secondly, although in the event that I do have children, I want to explicitly tell them about Christianity and Jesus. I encourage critical thinking, and indeed I would encourage people to know about other faiths. I would never promote those faiths as being true however in the same way I would in respect to the Gospel.

    The reality is although Christianity is true. It is also possible that people follow lies. Whether that is on a secular level, or in terms of other belief systems. Even if the truth abounds, and I believe firmly that it does. There are still plenty of lies, and many harmful ones at that to be affected by. Not all philosophies are equally true either.
    ShooterSF wrote: »
    You are making the argument that a child's likelihood of following your beliefs are negatively affected if they aren't told from a young age that your beliefs are exclusively right OR that Christians telling them from a young age that what they teach is right will influence them that way. That's our damn argument! One you should be very uncomfortable standing behind.

    I hadn't mentioned children before you had actually. My main point was about compatibility in relationship. Now, a relationship is different to a friendship. I have quite a few friends who are non-Christians (either atheists / agnostics or Muslims), but it would be incredibly difficult to even contemplating marrying a non-Christian.

    Your argument is robustly flawed. Faith isn't deterministic. The main intention that Christians should have in teaching their children about their faith is that they are equipped to make a decision for themselves later on in life about it. The outcome isn't guaranteed.

    If Christians believe what they do, it is immoral for them to keep that from their children, actually, it is immoral to keep that from others around us irrespective of whether or not they are our children or not.


  • #53
    Thea Old Griddlecake
    Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Thea Old Griddlecake


    philologos wrote: »
    The reality is although Christianity is true. It is also possible that people follow lies.

    You really want to come onto the islam forum and say that christianity is true, fact, and other faiths are lies?
    You have no idea if it's true, it's a faith you picked out same as any other


  • #54
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    philologos wrote: »
    That's called a fallacy. It's like asking one have they stopped beating their wife.

    I've not said:
    1) That I don't want people to be exposed to other religions
    2) That I don't want people to think critically

    What I have said is that it would be incredibly difficult to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't share in such a huge part of who I am, that is my Christian walk with God.

    No the fallacy here is to suggest that either a) I said children were the only reason put forward on this thread, b) that it wasn't a recurring reason given by many on the thread or c) my post was directed only at you.
    Secondly, although in the event that I do have children, I want to explicitly tell them about Christianity and Jesus. I encourage critical thinking, and indeed I would encourage people to know about other faiths. I would never promote those faiths as being true however in the same way I would in respect to the Gospel.

    The reality is although Christianity is true. It is also possible that people follow lies. Whether that is on a secular level, or in terms of other belief systems. Even if the truth abounds, and I believe firmly that it does. There are still plenty of lies, and many harmful ones at that to be affected by. Not all philosophies are equally true either.

    So are you saying that you DO think your kids/grandkids being taught islam was true would make it less likely for them to discover the fact (in your opinion) that Christianity were true?

    Your argument is robustly flawed. Faith isn't deterministic. The main intention that Christians should have in teaching their children about their faith is that they are equipped to make a decision for themselves later on in life about it. The outcome isn't guaranteed.

    But is the likelihood of the outcome changed if they aren't offered Christianity as true from a young age as opposed to the other faiths you will teach them about (faiths you will suggest are wrong)?
    If Christians believe what they do, it is immoral for them to keep that from their children, actually, it is immoral to keep that from others around us irrespective of whether or not they are our children or not.

    Indeed. I never suggested not teaching your kids about your religion I was just shocked that many faithful people on this topic openly hinted at the power of indoctrination through their fears of grandchildren being taught the wrong faith.


  • #55
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    bluewolf wrote: »
    You really want to come onto the islam forum and say that christianity is true, fact, and other faiths are lies?
    You have no idea if it's true, it's a faith you picked out same as any other

    There's good and sound reason to believe in the Gospel. We can discuss that more extensively on the Christianity forum.

    The main point why I suggest that we need to look at truth, and look at fiction is clear. Contradictory claims can't be all true. I'm actually not trying to be disrespectful or even step over peoples toes in saying that, and I'm absolutely certain that most atheists and those of other faiths would agree with that conclusion.

    A and NOT A can't be both true. (I.E - Either Jesus was crucified, or He wasn't, Either Jesus was the living Son of God, or not, Either God exists or not). Either A is true, or A is false. There's no middle ground.

    The question is what do we believe is true, and why.
    ShooterSF wrote: »
    So are you saying that you DO think your kids/grandkids being taught islam was true would make it less likely for them to discover the fact (in your opinion) that Christianity were true?
    ShooterSF wrote: »
    But is the likelihood of the outcome changed if they aren't offered Christianity as true from a young age as opposed to the other faiths you will teach them about (faiths you will suggest are wrong)?

    If availability was completely cut off, then although it wouldn't be impossible, it would be very difficult. If the Bible and other materials are accessible to people, then it is possible that they can hear about Jesus even if they were brought up in a non-Christian home.

    In the last year, I've met people who were ex-Sikh's who came to Christ, I've met people who were formerly Muslims who have now come to Christ, and I've met atheists / agnostics who have come to Christ. Nothing is impossible for God.
    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Indeed. I never suggested not teaching your kids about your religion I was just shocked that many faithful people on this topic openly hinted at the power of indoctrination through their fears of grandchildren being taught the wrong faith.

    There's nothing "indoctrinating" about telling someone about Christianity or any other faith / philosophy and letting people make up their own mind at a later date.

    Most people I have met have decided to follow Jesus personally in later life as a Christian. It's not really guaranteed from childhood.

    My point was if I truly believe that Christianity is true. It is immoral for me not to tell people about it. Likewise, I would expect people who believe Islam to be true, or people that believe that I am wasting my life to tell me about it. That is if they care at all.


  • #56
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    philologos wrote: »

    If availability was completely cut off, then although it wouldn't be impossible, it would be very difficult. If the Bible and other materials are accessible to people, then it is possible that they can hear about Jesus even if they were brought up in a non-Christian home.

    In the last year, I've met people who were ex-Sikh's who came to Christ, I've met people who were formerly Muslims who have now come to Christ, and I've met atheists / agnostics who have come to Christ. Nothing is impossible for God.

    Sorry I thought I was being clear. The question was not if they were cut off from it or if it was impossible. I asked did believers fear the likelihood of their children/grandchildren believing in their religion is reduced if those children are not taught from a young age that these beliefs ARE true. Nothing to do with being taught ABOUT the beliefs. As this seemed to be a concern of many here.
    A yes/no from anyone here at all would come as a surprise at this point to be honest.
    There's nothing "indoctrinating" about telling someone about Christianity or any other faith / philosophy and letting people make up their own mind at a later date.

    Correct. Do you intend if you have children/grandchildren to tell them about Christianity and other faiths or do you intend to teach them directly or indirectly that Christianity is true and the others are false? That one is indoctrination by definition. Whether you are for or against it is another debate. As is it's power.
    Most people I have met have decided to follow Jesus personally in later life as a Christian. It's not really guaranteed from childhood.

    I can't say I share your experience but I have yet to travel (something I hope to do soon). I wonder was there ever a poll on the christianity forum or the likes of after hours for the more lay people in regards how many came to Christianity rather than brought up being taught it as true.
    My point was if I truly believe that Christianity is true. It is immoral for me not to tell people about it. Likewise, I would expect people who believe Islam to be true, or people that believe that I am wasting my life to tell me about it. That is if they care at all.

    Adult to adult I agree. Children is more a grey area.

    All I have been getting at so far and with failure from any regular islam poster to interject is to question the issue of how concerned they are at how grandchildren are reared. Myself and atheists all around have the relatively easy ground here, we claim indoctrination is powerful and that you can influence a humans entire life by pushing beliefs on them at a young age. I was pretty certain the religious do not hold that point of view and if they do it's not as comfortable an opinion to hold.


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