Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Flincher · 12-05-2012 02:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Henderson at Ulster, Paddy McAllister at Ulster.

Obvious others at Leinster.

If this is an intrinsic problem in the Munster setup, then ignorance of it is a pretty massive mistake.

The problem is that lads aren't in the Munster set-up. From watching underage rugby is patently obvious that Munster players aren't as physically developed. Therefore, it takes longer for them to adapt to the physical demands.

I don't there is ignorance of the problem. If Munster could get their hands on players earlier, they would. I know the same difficulties exist with Leinster and access to schools players, but schools rugby is infinitely more physical there, and I'd guess schools are equipped with far better gym facilities.

This works both ways though. While POM or Butler might take a couple of years to develop physically, it took Stephen Ferris a couple of years to learn how to catch the ball. He was a machine when he burst onto the scene, but he might as well have had 10 thumbs, such was his handling.

GerM · 12-05-2012 02:13PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Was it Butler who threw a reverse pass out of a tackle last night, lovely skill. He's clearly a decent footballer but unless he can get massive he's career isn't going to go anywhere.

All that being said, Heaslip isn't a physical freak in the same way Ferris and SOB are, so it's do-able.

Heaslip certainly isn't a power freak like the others but he has ridiculous durability and conditioning. He has almost 150 Leinster appearances (nearly all starts) at 28 despite refusing to take a contract until he was pushing 22. He's a freak of a different kind but if Butler can match his fitness and natural power he'll be laughing because he has the talent.

Amazotheamazing · 12-05-2012 02:15PM

GerM wrote: »

The Munster players you listed aren't exactly old, Emmet. Zebo (22) and TOD (24 and by some distance the eldest) both got a decent bit of game time last season, both more than Barnes. Butler was 20 at the start of this season and is getting some game time after injuries. POM (22) got some sub appearances last season but had a lot of trouble with injury too. The young players have had some torrid times with injury too. TOD, Butler and POM have all spent significant time sidelined due to injury over the past 18 months.

McGahan has been trying to bring players through but he doesn't have the luxury that someone like Schmidt has where he arrived to a situation where a good number of young players already had decent game time and he had senior players who were in their prime and unaffected by call ups like McLaughlin, Boss and Jennings so could always afford to give youth a run alongside some experienced talent. McGahan had an impossible balancing act to perform by developing youth, winning matches and managing a rapidly ageing team crippled by injuries.

I think that's a fair assessment.

Ultimately let's see who our replacements/younger guys should have been

Darragh Hurley - always injured, replaced by Kilcoyne, decent prospect
Sherry- injured for most of the season
Archer - still a complete novice
Dave Foley - dislocated shoulder
Nagle - recurring ankle injury?
POM - big season, injured last season - Irish debut
TOD - injured this season
DOCv2.0 - injured this season, needs knee surgery?
Butler - coming through
Murray - Irish starter
Keatley - mixed season, ankle injury in March?
Zebo - fringe Irish player?
Dineen - injured for most of the season?
Barnes - injured before Christmas?
O'Dea- series of niggles
Jones - made of glass.

Now, maybe all teams have a similar profile but that is some list of injuries.

Add into that Flannery retired, Varley injured, POC injured, Wallace retired, Ronan, Leamy, Coughlan injured, and Howlett and Earls injured for large parts of the season.

I've never seen anything like it tbh.

irishbucsfan · 12-05-2012 02:17PM

Deleted User wrote: »

On phone so unable to search properly, but basically every post I made in this thread in 2011 bemoans the lack of chances for these players.

I'm talking about this part

Butler and O'Callaghan were far closer to a finished product than Ryan or Ruddock when they played U20 together.

Tox56 · 12-05-2012 02:17PM

If it's any consolation, Downey is playing well for Northampton at the moment.

Amazotheamazing · 12-05-2012 02:17PM

Deleted User wrote: »

On phone so unable to search properly, but basically every post I made in this thread in 2011 bemoans the lack of chances for these players.

Do you really think they were physically ready last season? Some of them aren't physically ready yet, imo.

thomond2006 · 12-05-2012 02:18PM

Tox56 wrote: »

If it's any consolation, Downey is playing well for Northampton at the moment.

came here to post this as well

Amazotheamazing · 12-05-2012 02:40PM

GerM wrote: »

Heaslip certainly isn't a power freak like the others but he has ridiculous durability and conditioning. He has almost 150 Leinster appearances (nearly all starts) at 28 despite refusing to take a contract until he was pushing 22. He's a freak of a different kind but if Butler can match his fitness and natural power he'll be laughing because he has the talent.

Yeah, you'd have to think that whatever Heaslip does is something any backrower should look at, even if I do think he's slowing down a bit already.

thehairyone · 12-05-2012 02:43PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Not really.

We've been through this a lot but I'll go over again what I think the problem is.

Munster rugby schools have generally poorer facilities than the Leinster ones, for example, in Limerick, Munchins only built a gym last year, Ardscoil have only one pitch (which they share with their excellent hurling team) etc. The players in Munster schools, therefore, are less physically ready for pro rugby.

Guys like Butler and POM are, imo, more skillful than Dom Ryan or Ruddock, but have absolutely nowhere near their physical ability/development. You can't expect POM, for example, to catch up in one pre-season for years of underdevelopment physically. It's been a long process and he's still clearly light. Much the same with Butler and DOC2.0.

Dom Ryan has been building his strength since his mid-teens, Munster players clearly aren't getting the same start and therefore are coming to the fore later.

I played for a Galway school in the early 2000s. We won the senior cup in 2002. For some reason we played our League games in the North Munster League, probably to give us competitive games before the Cup run without having to play our North Connacht rivals. A neighbouring Galway school were also in the League (although I cant remember how they got on). Cant remember all the teams we played but we played teams like Munchens and Nessans (cant remember if Crescent were involved). I can only assume we were playing their senior teams aswell. We ended up hockeying all these teams and reached the semi finals, where we lost by a couple of points after a freak late try (cant remember who it was against), so we ended up losing the double. Not long afterwards the League was disbanded, the rumour going around at the time was that it was cancelled because a small Galway school were coming down and hockeying all these Limerick schools and that it didnt look good for the Munster branch. Unless anyone can contradict me on the comepetitiveness of the League itself, it would appear that Limerick schools (at that time anyway) were not up to standard. Has anything changed?

yimrsg · 12-05-2012 03:19PM

Would Munster's (percieved or real) reluctance to incorporate youth compared to other provinces from having inferior strength and conditioning coaches or poorer fitness regimes? It's guesswork but I'm basing it on the Munster doctor being granted an injunction about his sacking and the streak of injuries that Munster have had this season.

I can't remember where I heard this but a player (possibly POC or Toner) was giving an interview and he mentioned that he could only bulk up when he wasn't playing, so only when he was injured or in the off season. Is it a case that Munster's youngsters are getting too much games below provincial level and it's making it too hard to step up another level as they're not as physically developed as they could be if they were in a different setup?

South Africa and NZ S15 franchises constantly bring through forwards that are around 20 years old, sure they mightn't have the full skill set but looking at them from a physical development point of view, they're streets ahead of similar aged Irish guys. Ulster's Henderson is practically unique as he was able to live (and thrive) with the increased physicality of the Rabo whilst being eligible for the U20s. I can't think of another recent Irish U20s forward that was able to make that transition so easily.

Penney would have had plenty of knowledge of youth and development setups at that age, he could possibly be one of the best as he coached NZ U20s. However he get's on with the senior side, his appointment seems particularly shrewd with regard to bettering Munster's academy.

thomond2006 · 12-05-2012 03:21PM

Downey just played a part in a superb Saints try, nice offload for Lee Dickson to score. That is probably the winning score.

Tox56 · 12-05-2012 03:28PM

Downey has been heroic.

ongarite · 12-05-2012 03:29PM

Off for blood sub now & Wilson off too.

totallegend · 12-05-2012 03:30PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Downey just played a part in a superb Saints try, nice offload for Lee Dickson to score. That is probably the winning score.

Not looking like it now

12-05-2012 03:43PM

Pretty scary how good Harlequins scrum is considering the damage that NH scrum has done to Irish teams over last 12 months...

thomond2006 · 12-05-2012 03:43PM

Saints are complete bottlers and are exemplified by Lamb.

Anyway from a Munster perspective Downey was very good and I'm lookinf forward to the impact he will make here.

PhatPiggins · 12-05-2012 04:28PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Pretty scary how good Harlequins scrum is considering the damage that NH scrum has done to Irish teams over last 12 months...

True but to add a pinch of salt to that Tongbonga looks to be carrying a knock and the Saints were missing 4 starters out of their strongest pack.

That said whoever is the scrum coach at Quins is doing a fine job as there are no super star names in that Quins tight 5.

RuggieBear · 12-05-2012 05:32PM

ESPN are showing a doc on Limerick and Munster rugby tomorrow morning at 10.30am

Munster Rugby: A Limerick Love Affair
Profiling the Limerick rugby community and its relationship with the Munster team

ormond lad · 12-05-2012 06:47PM

RuggieBear wrote: »

ESPN are showing a doc on Limerick and Munster rugby tomorrow morning at 10.30am
Munster Rugby: A Limerick Love Affair
Profiling the Limerick rugby community and its relationship with the Munster team

This was on setanta around this time last year. iirc its a fairly good show with plenty of interviews/contributions from current/former munster players as well as discussing the club game

Monty Burnz · 12-05-2012 07:46PM

thehairyone wrote: »

I played for a Galway school in the early 2000s. We won the senior cup in 2002. For some reason we played our League games in the North Munster League, probably to give us competitive games before the Cup run without having to play our North Connacht rivals. A neighbouring Galway school were also in the League (although I cant remember how they got on). Cant remember all the teams we played but we played teams like Munchens and Nessans (cant remember if Crescent were involved). I can only assume we were playing their senior teams aswell. We ended up hockeying all these teams and reached the semi finals, where we lost by a couple of points after a freak late try (cant remember who it was against), so we ended up losing the double. Not long afterwards the League was disbanded, the rumour going around at the time was that it was cancelled because a small Galway school were coming down and hockeying all these Limerick schools and that it didnt look good for the Munster branch. Unless anyone can contradict me on the comepetitiveness of the League itself, it would appear that Limerick schools (at that time anyway) were not up to standard. Has anything changed?

League? Are you talking about the Barry Cup?

adamryan · 12-05-2012 07:55PM

Laula is going to be a great signing for Munster. He is world class and exactly what we need. However, we need to find a replacement for O'Gara, i am not convinced about Keatley.....!

ormond lad · 12-05-2012 07:56PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

League? Are you talking about the Barry Cup?

Perhaps he's talking about the Limerick City Cup, fairly sure thats played on a league basis

Monty Burnz · 12-05-2012 08:01PM

ormond lad wrote: »

Perhaps he's talking about the Limerick City Cup, fairly sure thats played on a league basis

I'm assuming it was at best a league for B teams, like the Barry Cup. I love the conspiracy theory element though...

CiaranMT · 12-05-2012 08:04PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm assuming it was at best a league for B teams, like the Barry Cup. I love the conspiracy theory element though...

I'd imagine it was 2nd teams... The seniors in Munchins (when I was there at least) didn't play outside of the Cup and friendlies.

skregs · 12-05-2012 08:44PM

adamryan wrote: »

Laula is going to be a great signing for Munster. He is world class and exactly what we need. However, we need to find a replacement for O'Gara, i am not convinced about Keatley.....!

Keatley is solid, people need to stop judging him so harshly. He has big boots to fill, but he's doing well considering the crappy treatment he gets

Sindri · 12-05-2012 09:44PM

ormond lad wrote: »

This was on setanta around this time last year. iirc its a fairly good show with plenty of interviews/contributions from current/former munster players as well as discussing the club game

I just seen it last week. It was fairly ****e tbh.

profitius · 12-05-2012 10:31PM

I also think McGahan was far to slow bringing players through.

Theres numerous examples.
-Murray and Barnes only made the breakthrough at the end of last season. Murray had to wait for multiple injuries to get his opportunity.
-Donnacha Ryan was fourth choice last season up until the end of the season again.
-JJ Hanrahan has not yet played a competitive for Munster.
-Keatley has gotten no HEC time, maybe a few minutes in total.
-Horan being ahead of Kilcoyne all season.
I could go on..

Deleted User wrote: »

Pretty scary how good Harlequins scrum is considering the damage that NH scrum has done to Irish teams over last 12 months...

There was a theory from the scrummaging experts that the NH scrum was so effective because Hartley got in under the opposition tighthead, therefore forcing him up and that ment Tonga'Uiha just had to push and didn't need to scrummage.

Podge_irl · 13-05-2012 04:53AM

Munster looked a lot better during the 15 minutes Keatley was at 10 against the Ospreys then they did for the 65 mins ROG was at 10. He is not phenomenal but then neither is ROG and I think Munster are much better off sticking with Keatley who has the potential to be a lot better.

Amazotheamazing · 13-05-2012 10:28AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Munster looked a lot better during the 15 minutes Keatley was at 10 against the Ospreys then they did for the 65 mins ROG was at 10. He is not phenomenal but then neither is ROG and I think Munster are much better off sticking with Keatley who has the potential to be a lot better.

I'm in no way saying we didn't deserve to lose on Friday but what killed us wasn't Keatley not being outhalf, it was him being fullback. Positionally our entire back three were hopeless, not just bad but awful. You can excuse Dineen as he's a centre playing out of position (and he was the best of the three) but Keatley and Zebo had very bad days defensively. Fair enough Keatley shouldn't have been put in the position in hindsight but Zebo was shocking.

Podge_irl · 13-05-2012 03:26PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I'm in no way saying we didn't deserve to lose on Friday but what killed us wasn't Keatley not being outhalf, it was him being fullback. Positionally our entire back three were hopeless, not just bad but awful. You can excuse Dineen as he's a centre playing out of position (and he was the best of the three) but Keatley and Zebo had very bad days defensively. Fair enough Keatley shouldn't have been put in the position in hindsight but Zebo was shocking.

I don't think any one thing killed Munster, there were failures all over the pitch. If all the players come back from injury, the back 3 isn't a position I think Munster are in too much trouble - Howlett is obviously brilliant, Jones is going through a rough patch but has played excellently in the past, and Zebo certainly has potential. A decent backs coach will do well with that. The Ospreys game was a nightmare, but it was in a very unfortunate set of circumstances.

The lack of cohesion in their forward pack is something I'd be more concerned with.

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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