Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

donfers wrote: »

opinions on TOD, he has been around the scene for a while but only played regularly in the last few weeks, doesn't seem quite up to standard to me - a decent player but not of high enough quality to be a HEC starter

Squad filler imo

Next year backrows available will be, POM, Leamy, Coghlan, Ronan, Holland, DOC2.0, Holland, Dougal, TOD & Butler. Thats 10 players if all are fit I wouldn't expect to see much of TOD at all, I'd have POM and Ronan ahead of him at 7.

Deleted User wrote: »

Here is some players that weren't involved in provincial rugby in 2009.

Paddy Jackson
Dominic Ryan
Rhs Ruddock
Andrew Conway
David Kearney
Ian Madigan
Ian McKinley
Dave McSharry
Eoin Griffin
Tiernan O'Halloran
Michael Keating
Nevin Spence
Paddy McAllister
Craig Gilroy
Peter O'Mahoney
David O'Callaghan
Paddy Butler
Simon Zebo
Timmy O'Donnell

how many of them played a part in the 2010/2011 season at their provinces?

I don't know about all of them, I'm assuming you do.

As for the Munster players, POM had an injury last year as far as I remember. Zebo did get the odd game and he worked his way in as a starter this year. i think TOD did get 1 or 2 starts too, he's one player I do think could have been tried when he was younger. DOC and Butler only made their debuts this year. But they're still pretty young, some players simply aren't ready at the age of 20.

donfers wrote: »

opinions on TOD, he has been around the scene for a while but only played regularly in the last few weeks, doesn't seem quite up to standard to me - a decent player but not of high enough quality to be a HEC starter

You could be right...I'd be a little disappointed, he's obviously got some talent. I don't want to write him off completely yet.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Ronan has been considered not good enough for several years. Leamy is usually crocked. POM looks a very good player. Coughlan is a good player whose breakthrough has probably come too late. Dougal is an unknown quantity.

Are TOD, DOC, Butler and Holland up to snuff?

Ronan did step up his performances this year to be fair. But who knows what he'll be like after injury. If Leamy doesn't recover, he will be a big loss, on his day he's invaluable.

Holland will never be a HC-standard backrow, TOD might not be. The other 2 are still young...you'd think 1 of them at least will mature into the player we'd hope for. Butler stood out at underage level while DOC did impress when he got a run in the first team.

I dont mean to be too pessimistic here but... A lot of Munster fans saying this is the end of an era. That last night they saw the team hit rock bottom.

I'm afraid that's not the case. There is still a little way to go. Lets take the front row as an example. There are huge question marks about the future of some of those players. Wian Du Preez and Botha are both ageing NIQ players and probably won't be around too much longer. When you take them out of the front row you are left with a lot of inexperience behind them that has either not been given much of a chance or has looked poor when given one. It's not easy to say how things will go there, but it is possible there is a front row crisis waiting in the long grass.

The second row is the strongest area in Munsters squad. I think DOC will become the new Mick ODriscoll next season. That can only happen though if Foley or Nagle step up and push themselves into the first XXIII. Both look like strong talents so I really hope their injury issues clear up. Brian Hayes could be another long shot, Munster have a fair few options here.

The back row is deep in terms of numbers but not in terms of talent IMO. If you rate talent in three tiers: Excels at H Cup, serviceable at H Cup, serviceable at RD12, then I'd say a lot of Munsters back row squad fall into tiers 2 and 3. I'd have POM and Coughlan in tier 1, Ronan tier 2, and the rest in tier 3 right now. Now POM, Ronan, Coughlan will be a strong back row and Butler looks like he will add a lot in the future but Munster need to find better quality from somewhere as depth is particularly crucial in the back row. Hopefully Penney brings a project 7 down with him. If he doesnt then Munster better hope Sean Dougal is the second coming of Colm Tucker.

Scrum half is a major issue as far as I'm concerned. Looks like Murray will start and Stringer will be the bench option. More often than not this season Tomas O'Leary was coming into games and looking quicker and better all round than young Conor Murray. He needs to improve big time on this seasons all round quality as its just not good enough. He gets an A for work ethic and an A for ball carrying. He'd be a grat answer to Munsters problems at 7. The problem is he's not a 7, he's a 9 and hes not good enough. Peter Stringer has found his form again with the Falcons after a very dodgy stint in London. Ive no doubt that the regular rugby that will be afforded to him by the departure of Tomas will have him regularly showing up the clear weaknesses in Conor Murrays game that Munster fans seem unwilling to acknowledge. Hopefully Penney will come into camp and address this straight away. In terms of the future, it is not good to be treating the return of a 35 year old from the worst team in the Aviva Premiership as a positive thing. Let's not even consider the potential of an injury to Murray...

Outhalf will see key changes next year. In Ian Keatley and Scott Deasy Munster have a combination of players that offers the a lot of flexibility in terms of both attacking styles and in terms of positional play. Both players can play across the back line. Both have clear ability running a back line, both can kick. If I was Penney I would have Keatley as the starter with Deasy to come on with fresh legs if a game needs a different attacking approach, a la Ian Madigan. Keatley is the best out half in Munster at the moment. Ronan O'Gara is also in the squad and he can make a massive contribution next season by helping the tea ladies make above international standard Irish tea for the new coach and staying fit so he can come off the bench for national side every time they play.

The centres will see a massive improvement next season. Downey and Laulala are key additions and will give Penney the tools to cast aside Munsters appallingly poor attacking forwards-carrying game (seriously Axel what on earth are you thinking?). They will have 2 top class centres in Earls and Laulala and one fairly ok centre in James Downey. I think their best attacking option will be Laulala at 12 and Earls at 13 with Downey as an option to start in games where more direct running is needed (Dan Parks look out). Earls at 13 outside someone other than Mafi will be very exciting for Munster fans. Munster fans may not realise but some 12s are actually capable of passing the ball well at a distance over 2 feet, although like Mafi, James Downey is unfortunately not one of them. So I think the two best combinations there will be Laulala, Earls and Downey, Laulala.

The back 3 should be ok in the short term with Howlett back. I would love to see Luke O'Dea challenge Zebo next year as I think he's a better player. I think Felix Jones will return to form and hopefully stay fit. It's easy to forget how good he is but for a reminder just cast your mind back to the Churchill Cup 2009. Hopefully his injuries haven't taken that player away from Munster for good. Munster showed against Leinster A that they have strong depth and young talent in the back 3. Johne Murphy and Hurley will be options in the lesser games.


Looking through the squad it's clear there is some young talent and some changes that Penney can make straight away, but there are some others where talent is not good enough yet. Age is still going to hit this team in key areas (tight head). Penney has an absolutely massive job to do and I hope he can work in a system where there is not a massive conveyor belt of young talent coming through to help him do that. This will be a test of his coaching skills.

Deleted User wrote: »

That is also true, but the generation I have posted had made strides at every province bar Munster until this very season.

Kidney missed a trick, no doubt about it. But McGahan was also as blind to the situation until this season.

I don't think so. I thought so at the time, but looking back he literally had nothing to work with until the transitional team under Costello came together and players started being developed properly. And that was all put in place by him.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Maybe he knows who has Irish grandparents

Fingers crossed, Matt Todd!

Didnt zebo play the final last year ?

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I dont mean to be too pessimistic here but... A lot of Munster fans saying this is the end of an era. That last night they saw the team hit rock bottom.

I'm afraid that's not the case. There is still a little way to go. Lets take the front row as an example. There are huge question marks about the future of some of those players. Wian Du Preez and Botha are both ageing NIQ players and probably won't be around too much longer. When you take them out of the front row you are left with a lot of inexperience behind them that has either not been given much of a chance or has looked poor when given one. It's not easy to say how things will go there, but it is possible there is a front row crisis waiting in the long grass.

The second row is the strongest area in Munsters squad. I think DOC will become the new Mick ODriscoll next season. That can only happen though if Foley or Nagle step up and push themselves into the first XXIII. Both look like strong talents so I really hope their injury issues clear up. Brian Hayes could be another long shot, Munster have a fair few options here.

The back row is deep in terms of numbers but not in terms of talent IMO. If you rate talent in three tiers: Excels at H Cup, serviceable at H Cup, serviceable at RD12, then I'd say a lot of Munsters back row squad fall into tiers 2 and 3. I'd have POM and Coughlan in tier 1, Ronan tier 2, and the rest in tier 3 right now. Now POM, Ronan, Coughlan will be a strong back row and Butler looks like he will add a lot in the future but Munster need to find better quality from somewhere as depth is particularly crucial in the back row. Hopefully Penney brings a project 7 down with him. If he doesnt then Munster better hope Sean Dougal is the second coming of Colm Tucker.

Scrum half is a major issue as far as I'm concerned. Looks like Murray will start and Stringer will be the bench option. More often than not this season Tomas O'Leary was coming into games and looking quicker and better all round than young Conor Murray. He needs to improve big time on this seasons all round quality as its just not good enough. He gets an A for work ethic and an A for ball carrying. He'd be a grat answer to Munsters problems at 7. The problem is he's not a 7, he's a 9 and hes not good enough. Peter Stringer has found his form again with the Falcons after a very dodgy stint in London. Ive no doubt that the regular rugby that will be afforded to him by the departure of Tomas will have him regularly showing up the clear weaknesses in Conor Murrays game that Munster fans seem unwilling to acknowledge. Hopefully Penney will come into camp and address this straight away. In terms of the future, it is not good to be treating the return of a 35 year old from the worst team in the Aviva Premiership as a positive thing. Let's not even consider the potential of an injury to Murray...

Outhalf will see key changes next year. In Ian Keatley and Scott Deasy Munster have a combination of players that offers the a lot of flexibility in terms of both attacking styles and in terms of positional play. Both players can play across the back line. Both have clear ability running a back line, both can kick. If I was Penney I would have Keatley as the starter with Deasy to come on with fresh legs if a game needs a different attacking approach, a la Ian Madigan. Keatley is the best out half in Munster at the moment. Ronan O'Gara is also in the squad and he can make a massive contribution next season by helping the tea ladies make above international standard Irish tea for the new coach and staying fit so he can come off the bench for national side every time they play.

The centres will see a massive improvement next season. Downey and Laulala are key additions and will give Penney the tools to cast aside Munsters appallingly poor attacking forwards-carrying game (seriously Axel what on earth are you thinking?). They will have 2 top class centres in Earls and Laulala and one fairly ok centre in James Downey. I think their best attacking option will be Laulala at 12 and Earls at 13 with Downey as an option to start in games where more direct running is needed (Dan Parks look out). Earls at 13 outside someone other than Mafi will be very exciting for Munster fans. Munster fans may not realise but some 12s are actually capable of passing the ball well at a distance over 2 feet, although like Mafi, James Downey is unfortunately not one of them. So I think the two best combinations there will be Laulala, Earls and Downey, Laulala.

The back 3 should be ok in the short term with Howlett back. I would love to see Luke O'Dea challenge Zebo next year as I think he's a better player. I think Felix Jones will return to form and hopefully stay fit. It's easy to forget how good he is but for a reminder just cast your mind back to the Churchill Cup 2009. Hopefully his injuries haven't taken that player away from Munster for good. Munster showed against Leinster A that they have strong depth and young talent in the back 3. Johne Murphy and Hurley will be options in the lesser games.


Looking through the squad it's clear there is some young talent and some changes that Penney can make straight away, but there are some others where talent is not good enough yet. Age is still going to hit this team in key areas (tight head). Penney has an absolutely massive job to do and I hope he can work in a system where there is not a massive conveyor belt of young talent coming through to help him do that. This will be a test of his coaching skills.

Agree with the gist of your post.

Regarding prop, du Preez is 29 and starting a 2 year deal. I think that gives us some breathing space on that side. Hopefully we can bring through Kilcoyne over the next couple of years. On the tight head, Botha has a year left. Archer has been extremely fortunate to receive the coaching and time he has, and that has turned him into a serviceable Rabo prop. We would be in a better position had those resources been directed elsewhere. He would get his arse handed to him by half the AIL props. We'll be looking to abroad again once Botha packs up.

I think Murray is a better player than you give him credit for, but he needs to return to what he was doing when he broke into the team first. "Murray see ball - Murray pass ball" He did it at times this season, Scarlets in Thomond before Christmas, Milton Keynes, even last week. When he does that, the game opens up, and he gets a chance to show his all round game. The skillset is there - hopefully just a case of second season syndrome.

That Mafi can't pass is, in my view, a lazy generalization. A preference for contact has hindered him over the years, but his passing off his left especially is excellent. I don't think Downey is an improvement on him, but if we wanted Laulala, I suppose we had to let him go.

I hope we can get Laulala and Earls playing together. I think Laulala could be the key to getting Earls, Zebo, Jones and O'Dea into space. There would be serious pace in that backline.

Deleted User wrote: »

Butler and O'Callaghan were far closer to a finished product than Ryan or Ruddock when they played U20 together.

Careful exposure to the senior squad and good coaching meant the two Leinster guys leapfrogged their Munster equivalents.

Spence at Ulster and Griffin at Connacht similar cases.

There has been a startling reluctance to give youth game time in the past 8 seasons. This season has been an improvement, but it's too little too late IMO.

"if you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail"

That's pure revisionism. Ruddock and Ryan were physically miles ahead of those guys. Ruddock went across and played for the senior squad and his strength blew them away, he was even given extra lifting assignments. Ryan has always been physically massive.

Butler and O'Callaghan played really well at u20 level, but don't confuse that with them being physically ready for the level above. Butler was an intelligent carrier with great skills but he was no wrecking ball. oCallaghan was a lock who could get around the field impressively.

Did you see Butler play last year at all? He was clearly not big enough. Even at the start of this season.