Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Foxtrol · 08-05-2012 09:35AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

23 caps is surely enough time to be shown up though. MOD was a decent pro, no different to Cullen in that he arrived at the wrong time for International career.

So what player would you class that has Irish caps and let Ireland down or is every player that has a few caps (many off the bench) deemed as international class? If its the latter I now get why ROG used the term "above international standard".

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2012 09:40AM

I wonder how many games MOD would have played for them had he been with Leinster the whole time?

08-05-2012 09:50AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I wonder how many games MOD would have played for them had he been with Leinster the whole time?

pretty much all of them I'd imagine.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 08-05-2012 09:50AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I wonder how many games MOD would have played for them had he been with Leinster the whole time?

Had he been at Leinster and not been behind DOC and POC for his whole career, he would have another 10/15 Irish caps imo. He is no worse a player than Cullen who has 10 more caps than him.

totallegend · 08-05-2012 09:52AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I wonder how many games MOD would have played for them had he been with Leinster the whole time?

He'd have been a great addition to Leinster during Cullen's stint at Leicester. Competing with such luminaries as Owen Finegan, Adam Byrnes and that other Australian guy whose name escapes me now, he'd have been first choice and racked up a lot of appearances.

I don't think he'd have displaced O'Kelly, Cullen or latterly Hines though.

Edit: Bryce Williams!

danthefan · 08-05-2012 09:53AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I wonder how many games MOD would have played for them had he been with Leinster the whole time?

For Ireland? I'd imagine a few less really, Kidney has given him a good few caps.

Foxtrol · 08-05-2012 09:55AM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Had he been at Leinster and not been behind DOC and POC for his whole career, he would have another 10/15 Irish caps imo. He is no worse a player than Cullen who has 10 more caps than him.

Do you have any evidence to back up that statement? If anything Cullen should have more international caps and would if it wasn’t for Kidney’s bias in selecting an out of form DOC ahead of him on numerous occasions.

danthefan · 08-05-2012 10:04AM

Cullen has achieved far far more in his career, anyone can see that.

phog · 08-05-2012 10:31AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

For me not letting the side down in the odd international does not equate to a player being international class, you seem to have a different measure though.

danthefan wrote: »

Indeed, "didn't let anyone down" seems to be about the highest praise anyone can come up with. I'm not sure I can think of anyone who I'd say did let Ireland down.

I dont think anyone is saying the Micko was ever going to be Ireland's 1st choice 2nd rower but the claim was that the league was his standard, if this was the case then surely over his 23 caps he'd have been shown up. Perhaps this is what Amazo wants Dan to answer.

IMHO, if it wasn't for POC, DOC and MOK he'd have a lot more caps.

Amazotheamazing · 08-05-2012 10:47AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

So what player would you class that has Irish caps and let Ireland down or is every player that has a few caps (many off the bench) deemed as international class? If its the latter I now get why ROG used the term "above international standard".

I can't think of any 20+ capped player who's let Ireland down. I think it's odd some people think a guy who's only league standard could amass so many caps and never get shown up as out of place.

Guys who are league standard who've gotten caps are guys like Denis Hurley, Niall O'Connor. Even Ronan and Jennings are above league standard, imo. I wouldn't say any of those four have let Ireland down either.

Foxtrol · 08-05-2012 10:52AM

phog wrote: »

I dont think anyone is saying the Micko was ever going to be Ireland's 1st choice 2nd rower but the claim was that the league was his standard, if this was the case then surely over his 23 caps he'd have been shown up. Perhaps this is what Amazo wants Dan to answer.

Out of his 23 caps he only started 2 games in a proper competitive environment and only came off the bench another 5 times. No one has yet given a reason why he’d be classed as “international standard” apart from him never letting the side down. Amazo hasn’t responded so maybe you might, do you class every player who has a number of caps (mostly in non-competitive games) and isn’t made a fool of as then being international standard?

IMHO, if it wasn't for POC, DOC and MOK he'd have a lot more caps.

If you go down that line of thinking you could say Paddy Wallace would have a lot more caps at 10 if it wasn’t for ROG and Sexton. If those in your post above didn’t exist then Cullen would be pushing 100 caps.

Amazotheamazing · 08-05-2012 10:57AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Out of his 23 caps he only started 2 games in a proper competitive environment and only came off the bench another 5 times. No one has yet given a reason why he’d be classed as “international standard” apart from him never letting the side down. Amazo hasn’t responded so maybe you might, do you class every player who has a number of caps (mostly in non-competitive games) and isn’t made a fool of as then being international standard?

If you go down that line of thinking you could say Paddy Wallace would have a lot more caps at 10 if it wasn’t for ROG and Sexton. If those in your post above didn’t exist then Cullen would be pushing 100 caps.

Well, self evidently he is International standard, he's always been fine at International level, same as Cullen. It's their misfortune to be around when three of Ireland's greatest ever locks are about. The guys ahead of them were multiple Lions tourists, POC was a Lions captain and DOC captained the Lions midweek side. Did MOK make two or three Lions sides? Hardly a bad player in his own right.

The idea that he's some league player who got lucky is bizarre imo, guys like Matt McCullough was a league standard player who got capped (and fair play to him for it).

Foxtrol · 08-05-2012 11:09AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Well, self evidently he is International standard, he's always been fine at International level, same as Cullen. It's their misfortune to be around when three of Ireland's greatest ever locks are about. The guys ahead of them were multiple Lions tourists, POC was a Lions captain and DOC captained the Lions midweek side. Did MOK make two or three Lions sides? Hardly a bad player in his own right.

The idea that he's some league player who got lucky is bizarre imo, guys like Matt McCullough was a league standard player who got capped (and fair play to him for it).

He made the decision to sit behind those two (and later Ryan) and only play matches when they were injured/rested/away with Ireland. You clearly have a lower standard for international class than I do. Over a 13/14 year career starting just 2 competitive matches does not make him international standard to me. At no stage do I remember him even pushing POC or DOC for their place like Ryan or Cullen have. MOD may have been International standard player but I cannot see anyone without red tinted glasses judging him as anything other than a good squad player.

Amazotheamazing · 08-05-2012 11:22AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

He made the decision to sit behind those two (and later Ryan) and only play matches when they were injured/rested/away with Ireland. You clearly have a lower standard for international class than I do. Over a 13/14 year career starting just 2 competitive matches does not make him international standard to me. At no stage do I remember him even pushing POC or DOC for their place like Ryan or Cullen have. MOD may have been International standard player but I cannot see anyone without red tinted glasses judging him as anything other than a good squad player.

It's not red-tinted glasses, it's that Munster supporters see more of him than other fans. Same with Donncha Ryan, anyone who watched him for Munster could only be surprised by the outrage (on here) when he made the RWC squad. We always knew he was good enough. I imagine Ulster fans feel the same about Touhy, who is probably International class despite not getting a run out at Int level (much) yet.

08-05-2012 11:26AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

He made the decision to sit behind those two (and later Ryan) and only play matches when they were injured/rested/away with Ireland. You clearly have a lower standard for international class than I do. Over a 13/14 year career starting just 2 competitive matches does not make him international standard to me. At no stage do I remember him even pushing POC or DOC for their place like Ryan or Cullen have. MOD may have been International standard player but I cannot see anyone without red tinted glasses judging him as anything other than a top squad player.

McLaughlin wont be earning many Irish Caps anytime soon, but would have absolutely no problems if required to do so. He's an essential Leinster squad member, proving an important piece in the puzzle of what to do when International Duty calls your front line away.

When your competition for an International place is two Lions multi-tourists I don't think there's too much of a problem in not getting ahead of them.

MOD is an excellent rugby player, was one of the most important players in Munster's continual Magners' League performances over the past 5/6 seasons. He was a more than able substitute in many HEC games too.

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2012 11:29AM

Deleted User wrote: »

MOD is an excellent rugby player, was one of the most important players in Munster's continual Magners' League performances over the past 5/6 seasons. He was a more than able substitute in many HEC games too.

Every time I've seen him for the last 3 years, I was surprised at how good he was. He'd usually be one of the outstanding forwards on the pitch, regardless of the opposition.

Foxtrol · 08-05-2012 11:34AM

Deleted User wrote: »

McLaughlin wont be earning many Irish Caps anytime soon, but would have absolutely no problems if required to do so. He's an essential Leinster squad member, proving an important piece in the puzzle of what to do when International Duty calls your front line away.

When your competition for an International place is two Lions multi-tourists I don't think there's too much of a problem in not getting ahead of them.

MOD is an excellent rugby player, was one of the most important players in Munster's continual Magners' League performances over the past 5/6 seasons. He was a more than able substitute in many HEC games too.

Don't disagree with the above. Would you call MOD an international standard player though as that was the point I was responding to?

Otacon · 08-05-2012 11:34AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

...I cannot see anyone without red tinted glasses judging him as anything other than a good squad player.

The point being made is, when asked, he has shown himself to be a good international squad player too.

CatFromHue · 08-05-2012 11:39AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Every time I've seen him for the last 3 years, I was surprised at how good he was. He'd usually be one of the outstanding forwards on the pitch, regardless of the opposition.

I agree and I wouldn't be surprised if himself and Ryan start at second row against the Ospreys to be honest. If not it'd be him and DOC I think with Ryan in the back row. He will be missed by Munster next season that's for sure.

Foxtrol · 08-05-2012 11:40AM

Otacon wrote: »

The point being made is, when asked, he has shown himself to be a good international squad player too.

If by that you mean you deem him as international standard than I just have to disagree. As I posted earlier if people are now classing players with 2 competitve international starts over the course of a 13/14 year career as that then I would like to now take this moment to apologise to ROG for making fun of him for his use of the term "above international standard".

I think I just hold the term international standard in higher esteem than others here.

Otacon · 08-05-2012 11:46AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

If by that you mean you deem him as international standard than I just have to disagree. As I posted earlier if people are now classing players with 2 competitve international starts over the course of a 13/14 year career as that then I would like to now take this moment to apologise to ROG for making fun of him for his use of the term "above international standard".

I think I just hold the term international standard in higher esteem than others here.

How about we define it then. To me, international standard means good enough to play for the international team. MOD has proven that he is good enough by filling in when asked and not letting the side down.

Should we aspire for a higher standard of player, of course, and we do, but you cannot deny that he has served us well when asked to.

CatFromHue · 08-05-2012 12:13PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

If by that you mean you deem him as international standard than I just have to disagree. As I posted earlier if people are now classing players with 2 competitve international starts over the course of a 13/14 year career as that then I would like to now take this moment to apologise to ROG for making fun of him for his use of the term "above international standard".

I think I just hold the term international standard in higher esteem than others here.

The fact that MOD has 10 starts plus 13 appearances from the bench would indicate to me he was able to compete at international level to some degree. Are you confusing the term with world class i.e. the ability to play for any international team, which he isn't.

I do find opinions on MOD a bit funny. I think it's because he's been around so long, looks so old, may not be the most athletic of locks, and has had DOC and POC ahead of him at Munster which clouds peoples views. He's 33 so not that old relatively yet has been playing with Munster since 1998!

CIARAN_BOYLE · 08-05-2012 12:17PM

My definition of international class is good enough to be a regular starter for a (any one) top tier (top 8 in world rankings) international team.

I think MOD would just miss out on that definition. He might have made the definition for a few years though.

This isn't bashing the player but I thought for a long time that Munster were the European team with the third lock of any European team. He isn't at that level now hell he isn't third choice lock at Munster now but still thats what I thought about him for a long time.

thomond2006 · 08-05-2012 12:22PM

It wouldn't surprise me if Munster try to keep MOD as cover if POC's injury is serious i.e. 6-9 months. Dave Foley is out too with a dislocated shoulder, has any timeframe been given yet for his return?

totallegend · 08-05-2012 12:33PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

I think I just hold the term international standard in higher esteem than others here.

Leaving aside the Mick O'Driscoll debate for a minute, I think Foxtrol is right with the above, "international standard" and "international caps" are two different things.

And again, without reference to any player in particular, "doing a job", "not letting anyone down" etc are not terms we should be using in terms of our international players. For me, that is not true international class.

phog · 08-05-2012 12:34PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Well, self evidently he is International standard, he's always been fine at International level, same as Cullen. It's their misfortune to be around when three of Ireland's greatest ever locks are about. The guys ahead of them were multiple Lions tourists, POC was a Lions captain and DOC captained the Lions midweek side. Did MOK make two or three Lions sides? Hardly a bad player in his own right.

The idea that he's some league player who got lucky is bizarre imo, guys like Matt McCullough was a league standard player who got capped (and fair play to him for it).

The players I mentioned are not just International players they were/are Loins players, MOD was unlucky to be competing for an International place behind these guys.

Do you think a player that is ranked as league standard at best would survive at International level?

shootermacg · 08-05-2012 12:43PM

IMO MoD might well be the 2nd best 2nd row in ireland, I would have loved to see munster and the international setup take a chance of playing him with PoC, on one leg still a better player than plug. Mick commanded a lot of respect on the pitch and if you doubt his international credentials look at the gave vs the all blacks -he was a colossus and easily man of the match!

Fishooks12 · 08-05-2012 12:49PM

shootermacg wrote: »

IMO MoD might well be the 2nd best 2nd row in ireland, I would have loved to see munster and the international setup take a chance of playing him with PoC, on one leg still a better player than plug. Mick commanded a lot of respect on the pitch and if you doubt his international credentials look at the gave vs the all blacks -he was a colossus and easily man of the match!

Toner, Touhy, McCarthy, DOC and Cullen are superior players to MOD

But he's been a great servant to Munster all the same

Wexfordboy89 · 08-05-2012 01:44PM

just wondering if anyone has heard of anymore possible signings for next season
maybe one or two more back rowers especially if leamy has to retire

CIARAN_BOYLE · 08-05-2012 01:55PM

Wexfordboy89 wrote: »

just wondering if anyone has heard of anymore possible signings for next season
maybe one or two more back rowers especially if leamy has to retire

Apparently they are going for a project ball carrying backrow. There isn't any chance for NIQs other than a project

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