Reclassification of roads (28 February 2012)

spacetweek · 28-03-2012 10:01AM

I contacted Steve at Pathetic Motorways (which is a British site but has a section on the M32/N32 in Ireland) and asked him to remove the M32/N32. His response was interesting:

Thanks for that, but I have a feeling OSM is wrong. If you look at the SI, the N50 entry reads:
Dublin Ring Road
<snip>...TURNAPIN (and including link road to R139), BALLYMUN ...<snip>

The critical bit is the "and including link road to R139", which I think is a reference to the old M32. Someone basically needs to take a look!
Thanks,
Steven

Egads, he's right. The Bewleys to N32/M50/M1 roundabout link road is technically part of the N50. It's non-motorway though, as it does not lead inescapably to a motorway (you can do a U-turn and come back), but it's definitely not part of the R139. However, it's also not the N32 (as there is no entry for N32), so it must be a non-motorway segment of the M50!

If it was to have a name, it would be "M50 Link Road" or similar.

IrlJidel · 28-03-2012 08:37PM

spacetweek wrote: »

I contacted Steve at Pathetic Motorways (which is a British site but has a section on the M32/N32 in Ireland) and asked him to remove the M32/N32. His response was interesting:

Thanks for that, but I have a feeling OSM is wrong. If you look at the SI, the N50 entry reads:
Dublin Ring Road
<snip>...TURNAPIN (and including link road to R139), BALLYMUN ...<snip>

The critical bit is the "and including link road to R139", which I think is a reference to the old M32. Someone basically needs to take a look!
Thanks,
Steven

Egads, he's right. The Bewleys to N32/M50/M1 roundabout link road is technically part of the N50. It's non-motorway though, as it does not lead inescapably to a motorway (you can do a U-turn and come back), but it's definitely not part of the R139. However, it's also not the N32 (as there is no entry for N32), so it must be a non-motorway segment of the M50!

If it was to have a name, it would be "M50 Link Road" or similar.

So do we think the most correct thing to do is to update it in OSM as the N50?

spacetweek · 29-03-2012 10:51AM

IrlJidel wrote: »

So do we think the most correct thing to do is to update it in OSM as the N50?

No - unclassified, "M50 Link Road".

You can't mark it as N50 and in green because then there'd be three 50 routes - M50 west, M50 south, and N50 to Bewleys.

In the UK, this type of thing happens. When a link road is an integral part of the motorway, it is legally part of the motorway but not numbered or signed as such. They are named on maps as "Mxx Link" or similar.

MrDerp · 29-03-2012 03:37PM

As someone who moved to Dublin while still on L plates, I'm delighted to see the detrunking within the M50.

My sat Nav constantly tried to drag me along the quays, and generally made a bee-line for these major, yet usually congested routes. I had to quit the sat nav and take to pulling in and reading an A-Z when I was outside my comfort zone, if I wanted to make any kind of reasonable progress.

Now with R-road classifications for these routes, hopefully future visitors and new inhabitants of Dublin will be brought along the most sensible route instead.

If you think the N routes really assist in navigation around Dublin, try following the N11 signage from North Circular Road to Donnybrook church and tell me if that was the best way to go.

mackerski · 29-03-2012 04:07PM

spacetweek wrote: »

In the UK, this type of thing happens. When a link road is an integral part of the motorway, it is legally part of the motorway but not numbered or signed as such. They are named on maps as "Mxx Link" or similar.

I agree that it doesn't belong on the N/M50 mainline, but cases like you describe would be roads under motorway regulations, wouldn't they?

We could, based on what we're seeing here, concluded that it's an important local road (in OSM we call this tertiary, it renders in yellow), leaving a jarring gap in the path you would expect between the R139 and the motorways.

I still smell a clerical error, but I'd love to get to the bottom of this one.

SeanW · 29-03-2012 09:20PM

MrDerp wrote: »

If you think the N routes really assist in navigation around Dublin, try following the N11 signage from North Circular Road to Donnybrook church and tell me if that was the best way to go.

Try getting to Mullingar from said quays, or the Chapelizod Bypass for that matter - good luck when they put up R148 signs and sign the next (only) destination as Palmerston. In glorious "regional road" black on white.

etchyed · 24-08-2012 05:04PM

spacetweek wrote: »

Really not thrilled about the detrunking inside the M50. Legally, we should create a possibility now of maintaining the route numbers there but making an exception regarding their control - they should be made national routes under the control of the Dublin city councils. Changes to O'Connell St, Dorset St., etc. would still stand.

In any case, it takes us a decade sometimes to update signage in Ireland, so I wouldn't anticipate any changes on the ground for some time That will give us time to make a compromise.

BUMP!

Spotted some white signs today on the N3 inbound at its junction with the M50. The gantries approaching the junction still have green N3 signs, but new permanent signs have been erected, replacing these temporary ones on the sides of the overbridges as you drive through the junction. The destination is listed as CITY R147.

So it's started, and already it's pretty confusing, as the first few signs and the road markings still say N3. I wish I could be as optimistic as spacetweek that a compromise will be reached before this goes much further, but I'm not.

tomflynn · 24-08-2012 07:26PM

etchyed wrote: »

N32 is now R139

N81 (inside M50) is now R137

N11 (City Centre to junction with N31 Mount Merrion Avenue) is now R138

N1, N2, N3, N4 (inside M50) now use the same R numbers as bypassed former sections of their routes outside the M50 (i.e. R132, R135, R147, R148 respectively)

Some Observations:

All old bypassed sections of Dublin inter-urban radial routes (N1, N2, N3, N4, N6, N7, N8 and N9) have a single continuous R number in parallel, and as noted above, where relevant those within the M50 retain the same R number aswell, even where this is discontinuous in places e.g. old N4 now R148-N4-R148 between city centre and McNeads Bridge (at Correllstown) [although OpenStreetMap and Google have yet to classify the last 8km as R148]

For some reason there is one exception, the N11/M11.

At newest motorway sections of the M11, the old N11 south of Bray is R772 (going northbound) from Gorey to Arklow and via Rathnew to Ashford. At Fassaroe interchange where M11 Bray/Shankill Bypass commences, along the old N11 we get the R918 for a mile, then R761 to Wilford Interchange, then R119 via Shankill (which proceeds to Killiney/Dalkey/Dun Laoghaire/Monkstown), then R837 to Loughlinstown Roundabout returning to N11. From there it is N11 until the junction with the N31 at Mount Merrion Avenue. The now detrunked old N11 north of this junction into the city centre turns into R138.

All this discontinuity seems very helpful for L drivers and tourists!

Incidentally, the OSI, although yet to detrunk the N11 north of the N31 junction has pre-empted the commencement of the M18; continuous 'virtual' M18.

ManAboutCouch · 14-09-2012 03:59PM

tomflynn wrote: »

... [although OpenStreetMap and Google have yet to classify the last 8km as R148]...

I've just reclassified that bit of road on OpenStreetMap (after confirming it with the Statute Book). Thanks for the heads-up.

vickers209 · 03-05-2014 04:22PM

Just noticed Google maps has detrunked all roads into the city bar the n3 and n1 it was the first i seen or heard of this.

looks strange on a map seeing very few main roads

highdef · 04-05-2014 11:04AM

On the R139 (ex N32), I had heard before that bus lanes were not removed because to do so, they would have had to put in a hard shoulder (due to it being an N road) and thus be down a lane in each direction. Now that it is an R road, can the council finally remove the last bit of paint showing the non-functioning bus lane and make the road officially 2 regular lanes in each direction?

mackerski · 04-05-2014 12:42PM

highdef wrote: »

On the R139 (ex N32), I had heard before that bus lanes were not removed because to do so, they would have had to put in a hard shoulder (due to it being an N road) and thus be down a lane in each direction. Now that it is an R road, can the council finally remove the last bit of paint showing the non-functioning bus lane and make the road officially 2 regular lanes in each direction?

What's wrong with keeping them as lanes? Matt Talbot would be proud...

L1011 · 05-05-2014 12:31AM

mackerski wrote: »

What's wrong with keeping them as lanes? Matt Talbot would be proud...

There's no bus services and they've been permanently open to all traffic for years.

Chris_5339762 · 05-05-2014 01:54PM

highdef wrote: »

On the R139 (ex N32), I had heard before that bus lanes were not removed because to do so,they would have had to put in a hard shoulder (due to it being an N road) ?

Afraid thats tripe. You've been codded

Plenty of N roads around with no hard shoulder.

mackerski · 05-05-2014 02:27PM

MYOB wrote: »

There's no bus services and they've been permanently open to all traffic for years.

Bus services are immaterial, since they haven't been bus lanes for years either. Today it's a 4-lane road. Why halve that?

L1011 · 05-05-2014 04:40PM

mackerski wrote: »

Bus services are immaterial, since they haven't been bus lanes for years either. Today it's a 4-lane road. Why halve that?

Nobody is proposing that

mackerski · 05-05-2014 06:04PM

MYOB wrote: »

Nobody is proposing that

And indeed you're correct - I misread an earlier post.

Reclassification of roads (28 February 2012)

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