Should Airsoft be more competitive...

Jimmy bo 186 · 17-01-2012 8:34pm #1

Hi, i was just wondering if any of you think Airsoft should be more competitive with sites running more competitions and different things? I think it is a bit of a waist having all these airsoft teams but next to no competitions. I think it would make the sport more enjoyable and would influence more people to play the sport.

Thanks

Puding · 17-01-2012 8:48pm

all depends how you see airsoft

For me it is a hobby and not a sport and completely non competitive, i travel to event and tbh who wins and losses are secondary it is all about the experience.

There have been some attempts to run competitive airsoft in the republic but tbh you can not get past the fact that this is a game of honour with us taking our own hits, introduce a competitive angle and tbh it goes tits u from my experience.

do not know about competition making it more enjoyable, my experience is of the opposite but that may just be the circle i play in

SNAKEDOC · 17-01-2012 9:34pm

i've seen more competitive games end in disappointment and cheating than a good outcome. if a team really wants to win then yea they will cheat by not taking hits the only sure fire way to prevent this would be for a whole overhaul of the sport ie introducing electronic tagging which introduces more cost and upkeep. airsoft like paintball is a hobby not a competitive sport. no team is 100% honest not even a team of boy scouts.

Decoy · 17-01-2012 9:44pm

Personally I have no interest in team-on-team competition, as has already been said competitive airsoft can (and does) end in cheating. I have no doubt that the vast majority of teams play together because they want to play & work as a team, I don't see competition as the reason they play together.

The only competitions that could work in airsoft are the timed events where each team is timed to achieve the same specific objective under the watchful gaze of a team of experienced marshals.

Lemming · 17-01-2012 9:45pm

No.

Force on Force competitions, unless done in a 'friendly' capacity tend not to end well for reasons that others have outlined above. Skills-based competitions on the other hand can be a laugh, but I would again emphasis the 'friendly' status and nothing more outside of special events (charity, etc. whatever). I've yet to see any team vs. op-for scenario competitions in Ireland - and they're far and few between elsewhere anyway but seem to go ok when they do.

se conman · 17-01-2012 10:26pm

We ran a teams competition and it went very well , but it was run as a friendly , social event. It was several games and all were 4 on 4 with 3 marshall's per game. There were 10 or 12 teams and the honour that was displayed was second to none , but as Lemming said , for it to work it has to be focused on fun rather than serious competition.

Nuke1973 · 17-01-2012 10:36pm

se conman wrote: »

We ran a teams competition and it went very well , but it was run as a friendly , social event. It was several games and all were 4 on 4 with 3 marshall's per game. There were 10 or 12 teams and the honour that was displayed was second to none , but as Lemming said , for it to work it has to be focused on fun rather than serious competition.

that was a great day in fairness. Hope to bring a full team from cork the next time

sliabh · 17-01-2012 11:34pm

As has been said above airsoft is just not designed to be a competitive sport. Fundamentally you are shooting at people, and depending on them to say whether or not they have been hit. Imagine football played in a way that the opposing team decides whether or not you have scored.

It depends on players honour and that is a major stumbling block once anything is at stake.

TheDoc · 18-01-2012 10:33am

People blankly saying no or it doesnt work is retarded.

They have a MASSIVE capacity to work, be fun and enjoyable. Unfortunately my over ruling opinion of airsoft in Ireland is one off mostly cheaters. If I get an instance of cheating even once, the days ruined and its a **** days gaming for me end off.

One of the reasons we disbanded the Hawks was simply put there was no point and it was just having a negetive impact. Obviously as a group of friends playing week in week out working on our game we were a hard door to knock down, and it without doubt brought alot of animosity from skirmmishers, who in my view, just didnt like getting it handed to them and preferred having a whinge then actually working on their game.

Add in the fact that just because we were mates and hung around together and chatted in the safe zone, becuase we didnt include random strangers into banter, we were elitist

Its a pity when you read the comments

Depending on people to say wether or not they have been hit

So ergo its a pity that there is a large portion or cheating ****s who ruin the opportunity for everyone else.

Take AIM was a good idea, executed pretty ok but unfortunately ruined by literally TEAMS of cheaters.

Some of whom still knock about playing on sites today, and are well known, but sure its not like a site owner is actually taking a proper stand against cheaters. Seen a few lads get plucked out and told to have a sit down, then come back the game after, or the next week.

Its more a shame because word just spreads and those individuals get a horrible reputation. There are some days I'll go out and see a number of fellas I know are cheaters and instantly resign the day to " This is going to be bollox"...

I think in my view Milsim is where the competitive play is. It is ehre you get the best players, best tactics and best game scenarios. Its probably why I prefer milsim.

Nothing against skirmishers or the days, but I treat them like practice days, days to go out and work on new things, fine tune my tools and get experience against varied styles of play from opposing players. I've typically no problem getting dominated, because it gives a chance to actually learn how to overcome it. Skirmish days typically also run the same type of games week in week out, so over a course of time you develop the ability to identify strong tactics in that particular scenario, which can then be deployed in larger bigger milsim games.

If you wanna be the best, you need to beat the best, thats the way I look at the game. I want to keep improving and be a good player, I'm not realy content with just going out on a Sunday to fire a toy gun, I'd rather stay in bed

Unsinnig · 18-01-2012 11:39am

Decoy wrote: »

The only competitions that could work in airsoft are the timed events where each team is timed to achieve the same specific objective under the watchful gaze of a team of experienced marshals.

Massive +1 there! It's almost fool-proof in it's simplicity and almost guarantees that the known cheaters stay home with their mammy (where they belong) because it's suddenly a case of actual skill and team-work as opposed to pure body-count.

That said though, I have seen video of timed competition in the UK where lads blatantly cheat by missing a target and then stopping dead, looking at the marshal timing them and saying "My gun is knackered, I'm going to start again. Cheers".... needless to say, they all seem to have several "gun malfunctions" throughout an event and will deny any wrongdoing point-blank.

We'll find them all eventually though, and slowly weed them out like the bottom feeders they are

Jsmurff · 18-01-2012 1:01pm

There's enough skulldougery in your average weekend skermish to satisfy the usuall ego stroking but god help you if a trophy is thrown into the mix. I started a team with a bunch of freinds just to make the organising of games and travelling easier cos there's multiple people willing to pool the cost of petrol so in my opinion teams make life easier for the weekly skirmisher

Lemming · 18-01-2012 2:03pm

Unsinnig wrote: »

That said though, I have seen video of timed competition in the UK where lads blatantly cheat by missing a target and then stopping dead, looking at the marshal timing them and saying "My gun is knackered, I'm going to start again. Cheers".... needless to say, they all seem to have several "gun malfunctions" throughout an event and will deny any wrongdoing point-blank.

Easily remedied. Rule made plain as day before start of competition: if player complains of gun malfunction, inspect gun. If no signs of of malfunction, either they get one verbal warning (if one is to be given), followed by immediate forfeit on that target/course/whatever for any subsequent behaviour.

Gun malfunctions would not include dying batteries (of any sort), or running out of gas/BBs, etc.

It'll stop any nonsense dead.

TheDoc wrote: »

People blankly saying no or it doesnt work is retarded.

The question was "should airsoft be more competitive?". Again I would say "no" for reasons that have been outlined by everyone else already, yourself included. The rest of what you wrote pretty much underscores a "no." answer too.

That people will try and cheat in a competition if they perceive that there is something of tangible value to "win" is not an Irish thing. It's not an Irish airsoft community thing. It's a competition thing the world over. Some people will try it, some wont. Some people will genuinely not notice getting hit due to whatever reason, others know full well that they have been, etc.

Can competition airsoft work? Yes it can if you organise it thouroughly enough and find a scenario that is balanced no matter how many times it gets run. But given airsoft is a game of honour that requires honesty to call ones hits, the only competition games that will consistently & reliably work without ending in acrimony are 'fun' competitions where it's just a bit of a laugh if you come first or last.

I think in my view Milsim is where the competitive play is. It is ehre you get the best players, best tactics and best game scenarios. Its probably why I prefer milsim.

I think that perhaps the best way to view milsim and the sort of gameplay it encourages is to view it more a challenge to yourself and how you go about doing whatever it is that you're doing, more so than simply "beat the other guy". You can do that at any garden variety skirmish day.

Jimmy bo 186 · 18-01-2012 8:16pm

Lemming wrote: »

Easily remedied. Rule made plain as day before start of competition: if player complains of gun malfunction, inspect gun. If no signs of of malfunction, either they get one verbal warning (if one is to be given), followed by immediate forfeit on that target/course/whatever for any subsequent behaviour.

Gun malfunctions would not include dying batteries (of any sort), or running out of gas/BBs, etc.

It'll stop any nonsense dead.

The question was "should airsoft be more competitive?". Again I would say "no" for reasons that have been outlined by everyone else already, yourself included. The rest of what you wrote pretty much underscores a "no." answer too.

That people will try and cheat in a competition if they perceive that there is something of tangible value to "win" is not an Irish thing. It's not an Irish airsoft community thing. It's a competition thing the world over. Some people will try it, some wont. Some people will genuinely not notice getting hit due to whatever reason, others know full well that they have been, etc.

Can competition airsoft work? Yes it can if you organise it thouroughly enough and find a scenario that is balanced no matter how many times it gets run. But given airsoft is a game of honour that requires honesty to call ones hits, the only competition games that will consistently & reliably work without ending in acrimony are 'fun' competitions where it's just a bit of a laugh if you come first or last.

I think that perhaps the best way to view milsim and the sort of gameplay it encourages is to view it more a challenge to yourself and how you go about doing whatever it is that you're doing, more so than simply "beat the other guy". You can do that at any garden variety skirmish day.

I agree, but i still think it is possible to run occasional team competitions with objective based games in cqb areas that can be closely watched by marshalls so players will think twice about not taking their hit. It is certainly something i plan on doing when i open my site.

Bernie Mac · 18-01-2012 8:22pm

I have taken part in several competitions, from organising them, marshaling them and playing in them, throughout the years and must say I am not a fan of them. I have only ever seen the worst of the players come out.

Its a sad thing and I would like to see it work but in my experience it never has. Besides most teams are more just a social group that enjoy playing together.

Thats just my opinion on the topic.

Jimmy bo 186 · 18-01-2012 8:35pm

Bernie Mac wrote: »

I have taken part in several competitions, from organising them, marshaling them and playing in them, throughout the years and must say I am not a fan of them. I have only ever seen the worst of the players come out.

Its a sad thing and I would like to see it work but in my experience it never has. Besides most teams are more just a social group that enjoy playing together.

Thats just my opinion on the topic.

I would hate if airsoft was made into something its not but it would be nice to try something different once in a while other than traveling to one of your local sites and taking part in the same games everytime.

sliabh · 19-01-2012 12:08am

Jimmy bo 186 wrote: »

it would be nice to try something different once in a while other than traveling to one of your local sites and taking part in the same games everytime.

Yeah, but it has been tried, more than a few times. And the following monday you can come on here and see the bitching and accusations about cheating and cheaters.

As I said, and the evidence is there from every sport, not just airsoft, if there is anything at stake (prizes, prestige, bragging rights) then people will try to cheat. The easier it is to cheat in a particular sport, the more likely it is to happen. And with airsoft it is very easy to cheat if that is what you want to do.

Gaz2010 · 19-01-2012 7:09am

Hey lads

I've only been in the one competition a few years ago and as far as i remember play throughout the day was very amicable, from what i witnessed anyway and don't recall that there was any complaints. The marshalls on the day in question did a great job being where it mattered when it mattered.
That being said I did hear of competitions held since ended up being a a disaster with many people complaining of non hit takers and the day on the whole being run very badly.

I don't see the harm in competition, you play to win weather you want to admit it or not. Every skirmish is in itself a competition would you not agree? As said above when you get schooled i believe it makes you a better player and if you keep making the same mistakes well you deserve to get whopped

Why not arrange a small competition between a few teams in your local area, that way YOU choose NOT to include the fools that f*ck it up for everybody. Is there not a un-namable site in Meath doing private days on request? I'm sure more places would do this if asked.
By the players for the players type thing and not a half arsed money making scheme ran by lads that couldn't give a ****e.

I find/found the huge majority of teams will not take on new members if they are seen to be cheating f*ckers. So if you select teams that play by the rules there should be no problem. I don't see the 'they'll cheat just cos its a competition' as a valid argument not like you win f'all anyway. A cheating bastid will ALWAYS be a cheating bastid on competition day and every other skirmish , don't let em in its as simple as that.

Long story short IF its run properly competition is a good thing in my opinion. No point saying it wont work cos rah rah rah rah every problem has a solution and this is a simple one. NO FOOLS ALLOWED

TheDoc · 19-01-2012 10:35am

When there are people cheating on skirmish days which are essentially just for fun and giggle,s it doesnt leave you much hope for any sort of competitive event.

Then again if cheaters were just outright banned and thrown out to rot it would be much better overall

"No you cannot partake in this competition are your a known cheater, goodbye"

Decoy · 19-01-2012 12:12pm

TheDoc wrote:

Then again if cheaters were just outright banned and thrown out to rot it would be much better overall

If only it was that easy. We've all seen repeat offender individual players. We've all seen whole teams who cheat as a unit. The site owners know who they are but I've yet to see any individual be asked to leave a site and I know of no teams who are banned from any site. As players we have no power to effect these changes, only site owners have this power but I can't see anyone being banned because no site wants to lose business.

Airsoft Reloded · 19-01-2012 12:25pm

Decoy wrote: »

If only it was that easy. We've all seen repeat offender individual players. We've all seen whole teams who cheat as a unit. The site owners know who they are but I've yet to see any individual be asked to leave a site and I know of no teams who are banned from any site. As players we have no power to effect these changes, only site owners have this power but I can't see anyone being banned because no site wants to lose business.

Our marshall Gary barred someone just the other day because he over killed someone. I have barred many over the years and I know of loads of people who have been barred from other sites so I wouldn't say that is exactly correct.

As for teams sure we've gone out of our way to ensure certain teams don't visit dude, infact we (And I'd imagine a few other sites) try to control what sort of a crowd shows up every day.

Site owners won't bar people just because some player wants us to, we would want to catch the guy ourselves (us, a marshall or a player marshall) and then have a word, take him out of the game (or a couple), a weeks suspension maybe and if it persists you'd bar him but true enough we wouldn't knee jerk bar someone because you'd be closed soon enough, newcomers deserve a chance to get into it and they are going to make mistakes along the way.

Decoy · 19-01-2012 1:20pm

Airsoft Reloded wrote:

Our marshall Gary barred someone just the other day because he over killed someone. I have barred many over the years and I know of loads of people who have been barred from other sites so I wouldn't say that is exactly correct.

As for teams sure we've gone out of our way to ensure certain teams don't visit dude, infact we (And I'd imagine a few other sites) try to control what sort of a crowd shows up every day.

I don't doubt some people have been barred, all I said was that I've yet to see anyone barred which is a bit odd given the amount of non-hit-taking that takes place.

What are the chances of sites naming teams that are, for want of a better expression, 'no longer welcome'? I appreciate the difficulty with doing that for individuals but if a player is an habitual offender their name will become known around multiple sites and then it would be appropriate to name & shame.

We started off talking about competitive airsoft and now we're back on the old topic of cheating. When I started playing the one thing the lads I knew who had been playing for a while kept saying to me was "make sure you take your hits". I've played by that mantra since day one and I just can't understand why anyone deliberately ignores hits (let's not go into the multiple other ways to cheat that I've seen). Oddy published a 2011 montage vid on YT recently, one of the clips showed a guy 'catch' a BB in his mouth. He didn't call the hit on himself and carried on playing, thinking the whole episode was uber-cool. You can pass your own judgement on that one but it is an example of what we (both players & marshals) have to deal with week-in, week-out. Has anyone got any ideas how to address this issue?

Airsoft Reloded · 19-01-2012 3:09pm

I hear you, it is a non stop issue but what can you do except bar them. To name the teams you don't want to visit you only creates arguments and bad feelings so its easier to leave it unsaid I think.

Truth be told if you want to absolutely stamp it out the only way to do that would be massive oversight, say for instance everyone has to join the IAA and then if your cought cheating your number can be flagged so anytime you enter an affiliated site they'd know and it would be up to them what to do (But this would never happen and wouldn't definitely work anyway).

Other than that we have found that hiring another few marshalls and enlisting the help of a few of your most devout regulars as player marshalls (but give them all the authority to bar people if it is required) seriously helps stamp it out.

Unfortunately one of the greatest things about airsoft (The honour system) is also it's greatest weakness but this shouldn't let us hold back those who want competitive airsoft to take place from hosting events e.t.c. The host of the event just has to be willing to disqualify teams and/or deduct point after the game if evidence shows up of cheating taking place. I think it can be done with the right incentive and the correct amount of marshalls.

Decoy wrote: »

I don't doubt some people have been barred, all I said was that I've yet to see anyone barred which is a bit odd given the amount of non-hit-taking that takes place.

What are the chances of sites naming teams that are, for want of a better expression, 'no longer welcome'? I appreciate the difficulty with doing that for individuals but if a player is an habitual offender their name will become known around multiple sites and then it would be appropriate to name & shame.

We started off talking about competitive airsoft and now we're back on the old topic of cheating. When I started playing the one thing the lads I knew who had been playing for a while kept saying to me was "make sure you take your hits". I've played by that mantra since day one and I just can't understand why anyone deliberately ignores hits (let's not go into the multiple other ways to cheat that I've seen). Oddy published a 2011 montage vid on YT recently, one of the clips showed a guy 'catch' a BB in his mouth. He didn't call the hit on himself and carried on playing, thinking the whole episode was uber-cool. You can pass your own judgement on that one but it is an example of what we (both players & marshals) have to deal with week-in, week-out. Has anyone got any ideas how to address this issue?

Should Airsoft be more competitive...

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